Is Abortion Murder?

[Bowser]

Not in your case.

As established, you don't actually believe an early fetus is a person; and as demonstrated, you have no respect whatsoever for the woman's life. So it's not even one, for you.

When did I state that? If anything, I've been arguing for the preservation of life. I have no respect for a woman who willingly kills her child. I believe it to be murder, as I've already stated.

 

[James R]

tali89:

Talking to you is like talking to a petulant child who is having a temper tantrum. I'll try to keep this brief by ignoring a few of your more ridiculous attempts at provocation.

More importantly, why are you apologizing to Bowser? On a previous page you ridiculed him for wanting to bow out of the argument after it became too heated.

Nobody deserves to have your whingy whining cluttering up their thread, not even Bowser.

I'm sure we could do this all day, but it would be more productive if you explained how urging a woman to have an abortion is tantamount to coercing her to have one.

Myself and others have already explained that to you patiently, several times. You don't want to learn, and you're frankly not worth wasting more time on.

Let me ask you directly: are you pro-choice or pro-life? Or, if you like neither label, please describe your position on abortion.

On the specific question, let us clear the air: are you in favor of coercing women to either have an abortion or not to have one, or are you against all coercion? Subsidiary question: if somebody takes a "pro-life" position, isn't that equivalent to coercing women into not having abortions (by denying them the right to choose)?

Oh no, that's not the way it works. You implied that Capracus and myself were in favor of coercing women to have abortions, so it's incumbent on you to support that assertion. Your attempt to answer a question with more questions is nothing more than transparent evasion on your part.

So let me get this straight. In a thread on abortion, that you chose to post in, it's "not the way it works" for you to post your views on abortion. What are you here for, then? Not for discussing the topic - that much is clear.

Look at what I asked you: are you in favor of coercing women to either have an abortion or not to have one, or are you against all coercion?

Are you capable of making your own position clear, or is that "not how it works"?

If you were to answer this simple question, you wouldn't have to demand that I support my assertions about your position. I'm asking you directly what your position is. It couldn't be more straightforward than that.

Do you have a position on the thread topic, or are you just in this thread to troll myself and other members?

I suspect you live in a sheltered world by the way you behave whenever anyone disagrees with your particular worldview. Your take criticism of an opinion or ideology as a personal attack, and respond with vitriol. A possible explanation is that you live in a very confined world where everyone pats you on the head and tells you how very intelligent you are. You may have a degree, and you may have chosen to work in academia, a government job, or another such field which is predominated by leftists. So when your preconceived notions of being intelligent, educated and important are challenged, you arc up. This is all speculation on my behalf, admittedly, but its seems the best explanation for the behavior you have exhibited so far.

I think you've constructed a fantasyland for yourself concerning what my "particular worldview" might be like. I took you to task earlier in this thread when you made the claim that "liberals tend to raise degenerates". Now, I know you meant that as a personal attack on me, but that's water off a duck's back - I expect incoherent rage from you as a matter of course, and I know you can't help lashing at people when you're having one of your tantrums. The reason I picked you up on that claim is that you made a broad statement stereotyping a group of people, without providing a skerrick of evidence in support of your claim which, as it happens, is a breach of our site rules.

Do you despise people who work in government jobs or academia, tali89? Why is that? Were you turned down for a government job, or did you fail at university or something? Do you regard conservatives who are in government with the same hatred as you regard liberals, or is it ok for conservatives to be self-important, intelligent and educated? Do you have issues with being educated, tali89?

Congratulations on being able to use a dictionary. You're full of surprises, aren't you.

And you obviously can't, because...

You mentioned something about urging being equivalent to a form of coercion, although I'm not exactly sure what your point was...

No surprises there.

You sound angry.

No, you misunderstand. When a child throws a tantrum, an adult can get exasperated after a while. The child is irrational. The adult wishes the child would see reason rather than continuing to scream and shout pointlessly.

I haven't forgotten [the sexual harassment thread], but you seem very keen on bringing it up, again and again.

Yes. And you can be sure I'll be directing people to it every time you start another hypocritical thread on a topic relating to "men's rights". There really couldn't be a much clearer demonstration of your double standards - and in your own words, no less.

You've also attempted to repeatedly yank my chain in that very thread, despite the fact I gave you the last word. Why is that, I wonder?

You try to make it sound like you didn't simply run away from that thread in embarrassment, but that's a little act for the benefit of other readers, not for me. So nice of you to give me the last word, tali89! Hehe.

And why is it that your chain is so ripe for the yanking regarding that thread, tali89? It's the embarrassment you caused yourself, isn't it?

I can post the screenshot of the personal message where you demanded to know my identity. Oh wait, sorry, you don't want me to divulge that information. How very convenient.

Really, who cares whether I demanded to know your identity or not? It would be a silly demand, as I pointed out, so it likely didn't happen. I suspect you're probably taking some statement I made out of context, but we'll never know.

The fact is, I know exactly who you are, despite your desperate attempts to hide behind proxied IP addresses and a string of lies. So, at this point in time, there's absolutely no need for me to demand anything about your identity.

Hehehe. 'Integrity'. Boy, you must be steaming if you've went and learnt the big words.

Learning a word is half the battle, tali89. You also have to understand what it really means, and you're very far from that when it comes to the word "integrity". More on that below.

Your rules don't apply to me outside of this forum, I'm very sorry to say. You do remember that there is a public world outside of this forum, right? If I wanted to, I could show your PM to a friend, or email it, or even host it on my own site.

I own the copyright to my posts on this forum, and to any private messages I have sent to you. If you post anything I have written here, whether in a private message or on the public forums, to any other place on the internet without my permission, you might well find yourself in breach of copyright laws. Those laws apply outside this forum.

You have your own site, do you? I'm sure it's as wonderful as you are. Got a link you want to share with your readers?

Such as when my IP address was posted by Kittamaru? Yes, I'm sure you gave him a very stern talking to.

I do not recall any such posting of your IP address. I would be happy to remove it and take appropriate administrative action if it still exists on our public forums. Please send me a link to the relevant post in a private message. I will also take action against Kittamaru in line with our site rules, should your claim turn out to be true. Given that you regularly make claims you can't support, I doubt this one will be any different.

 

[Bowser]

The mother and the child.

Do I get to live afterward, or should I just abort?

 

[James R]

(continued...)

When you childishly demand apologies from everyone who slights or disagrees with you, then you might as well be. My suggestion? Build a bridge and get over it. You're going to be severely disappointed if you go around expecting apologies from everything and everyone.

So, let us end with the issue of integrity.

Let's start by identifying what you didn't reply to in your line-by-line replies to my previous posts:

Well, a number of people have stated that urging someone to do something is the anti-thesis of being pro-choice.

Ok. Do you agree with those people, or not?

You decided not to express your opinion on the thread topic here, despite being given yet another opportunity to do so. See my comments above.

A reminder: I asked you to apologise for the specific claim that you made that I followed you into the current thread. Here's what you wrote:

"Now you've followed me to this thread in a further attempt to browbeat me."
I clearly set out the evidence that I was participating in this thread for a full week before your first post. I invite anybody who gives a damn to check the facts.

It is established that - as a matter of indisputable fact - I did not follow you into this thread for any reason. As I said, for all I know you followed
me into this thread. The timeline at least supports that hypothesis.

.... Your dishonest attempt to avoid the specific issue I raised is just one more example of your general lack of personal integrity.

You did not respond to the specific facts I raised here, but chose instead to bluster around the issue. No integrity.

In fact, worse that than, you compounded your lie in your most recent post:

The fact that this thread was your little stomping ground a week ago doesn't change the fact that you jumped in here to respond to me in a deprecating manner, without any provocation whatsoever.

It is established beyond any doubt that I did not enter this thread because of you.

Your further lie that you didn't say anything provocative is as unsustainable as all of your other lies.

Your dishonesty is a matter of public record.

None has been shown so far by you.

You completely failed to back up any of your numerous accusations that I have told lies anywhere. You are content to make libellous accusations and then to run away rather than taking responsibility for what you said.

You'd be better served by not lying, rather than attempting to silence people who catch you with your pants down.

You are tossing around a lot of personal accusations here, tali89.

Will you provide any evidence to back up your inappropriate personal slights? Or will you apologise to me for your uncouth and inappropriate behaviour? Or will hell freeze over before tali89 every utters the words "I'm sorry. I was wrong and I acted poorly. I will try to improve."?

This was the point I made in my previous post. And here I am, having to make it again because you chose to pretend it never happened. You have no integrity.

I didn't ask the world to apologise to me. I only asked you to be accountable for your behaviour. It was too much to hope for from you, I know. Your attempt to deflect your actions onto a nebulous "world" is just further evidence of your deep immaturity. I hope you grow up one day and become a real adult who can handle responsibility.

This is the bottom line. The fact that you ignored this further supports my contention that you have no integrity.

 

[spidergoat]

Horrible because I would choose life over death?

Who's side are you on? Because it's not the human race or society. Certainly not women. Certainly not children, who are demonstrably better off with legal abortion than without. It's a fake concern you have for life. You just want an excuse to treat half the population as murderers, and therefore under your control. It's the same way blacks and Mexicans are vilified as criminals, the better to keep them down. It's only your life that you care about.

 

[Bowser]

Who's side are you on?

I value life. I shouldn't need to justify it because its value should be recognized without argument. That's what we're arguing here, the value of human life. And I believe to my very core that everyone participating in this thread values their own life, so much so they wouldn't throw it away--at least not as readily as they would that of a fetus.

 

[Secular Sanity]

Giggity-Giggity ¡Gack!

Did you major in drama?

Yes, we’ve been there, done that, but iceaura said that no agency, significant organization, or large fraction of the population, in our society or any other, has ever treated a 12 week fetus as a person, which is not the case.

Just face it, Tiassa, you're an extremist.

 

[river]

Until every child is guaranteed a good healthy home , with food , psychology, mentally and sexually, and emotionally. Then abortion should be allowed.

 

[Bowser]

Until every child is guaranteed a good healthy home , with food , psychology, mentally and sexually, and emotionally. Then abortion should be allowed.

But that will never happen, river. Life never will be perfect, which is why life is often a struggle, but it still has immeasurable value. I agree that more resources should be allocated for child welfare. That goes without saying. But we don't just erase life 'til the day is right, because I don't believe that day will ever arrive.

 

[spidergoat]

I value life. I shouldn't need to justify it because its value should be recognized without argument. That's what we're arguing here, the value of human life. And I believe to my very core that everyone participating in this thread values their own life, so much so they wouldn't throw it away--at least not as readily as they would that of a fetus.

You value potential life more than actual life, and you are delusional if you think that's ethical. And it's not even a good life you're saving. You want to save a kid to live a crappy life that more likely than not will be a life of poverty and crime. Save your energy and resources for actual born kids.

 

[river]

But that will never happen, river. Life never will be perfect, which is why life is often a struggle, but it still has immeasurable value. I agree that more resources should be allocated for child welfare. That goes without saying. But we don't just erase life 'til the day is right, because I don't believe that day will ever arrive.

Agreed bowser

But that is exactly what a child needs.

Its not about perfection persay its about the enviroment this child grows up in.

An unaborted child needs the best enviroment to grow in.

 

[Bowser]

You value potential life more than actual life, and you are delusional if you think that's ethical. And it's not even a good life you're saving. You want to save a kid to live a crappy life that more likely than not will be a life of poverty and crime. Save your energy and resources for actual born kids.

Again, we disagree. I've known people who were born in poverty with disadvantages in life. We spent some great times together and they were pretty happy to be alive, so your argument that all conditions must be ideal holds no water. Tell me, in this ideal world, what do you consider a "good life"?

 

[Bowser]

An unaborted child needs the best enviroment to grow in.

How many of us grew up in the "best environment"? Believe it or not, some kids learn life lessons from their misfortune, becoming better people because of it.

 

[iceaura]

I've been arguing for the preservation of life.

Not the woman's. You don't even allow the woman basic self defense.

 

[river]

0

How many of us grew up in the "best environment"? Believe it or not, some kids learn life lessons from their misfortune, becoming better people because of it.

True, most don't.

But abuse of all kinds is the potential problem.

 

[Bowser]

Not the woman's. You don't even allow the woman basic self defense.

Basic defense? Against what? Her own child? If it has fangs and claws and threatens to burst through her chest...?

 

[Bowser]

But abuse of all kinds is the potential problem.

True. That's where child services enter the picture. I did know a gentleman who was abused terribly by his parents, but the guy himself was an extremely fun person to know. But you are correct, child abuse is a problem that needs to be addressed.

 

[spidergoat]

Again, we disagree. I've known people who were born in poverty with disadvantages in life. We spent some great times together and they were pretty happy to be alive, so your argument that all conditions must be ideal holds no water. Tell me, in this ideal world, what do you consider a "good life"?

A good life is one where people make their own reproductive decisions. This leads to the best outcomes.

 

[spidergoat]

How many of us grew up in the "best environment"? Believe it or not, some kids learn life lessons from their misfortune, becoming better people because of it.

Spare us your naive bullshit. You're making up fairy tales to assuage your own guilt for wanting to abuse women. Preventing abortion is itself abuse of women on a societal level.

 

[Bowser]

A good life is one where people make their own reproductive decisions. This leads to the best outcomes.

How many pregnancies do you believe are planned? Both my children were "accidents." Yet here they are.