Intelligent Design

[davewhite04]

The very first things people wrote about were debt, taxes, the awesomeness of rulers, astronomical observations, and military issues. The stories about Gods had to wait until some less onerous means than chiseling rock or firebaking clay tablets had been invented.

Thanks for your opinion.

 

[kx000]

I think an eternal God created Adam and Satan to exist for a short time in order to spawn learning which is the world we are born into.

 

[iceaura]

Thanks for your opinion.

It's historical record. The oldest writings are carved into stone and baked into clay tablets, and there isn't much in the way of storytelling in them - about Gods or anything else.
No point. Too much hassle, too much expense, for what anyone who could "read" already had memorized or easy access to in the dominant oral tradition.

 

[davewhite04]

It's historical record. The oldest writings are carved into stone and baked into clay tablets, and there isn't much in the way of storytelling in them - about Gods or anything else.
No point. Too much hassle, too much expense, for what anyone who could "read" already had memorized or easy access to in the dominant oral tradition.

Checkout the Sumerian tablets, if you want to learn.

 

[iceaura]

Checkout the Sumerian tablets, if you want to learn.

The earliest known written Sumerian accounts of gods or myths date to about 1600 BCE, more than a thousand years after the first known Sumerian writing. It was probably written by a specially educated class of priests, after spoken Sumerian had become extinct in general society, as Latin was used by priests in the Christian religion long after the Roman Empire was dust.

The earliest known Sumerian writing - by a thousand years - is stuff like this:

This text was inscribed on a small clay cone c. 2400 BC. It recounts the beginning of a war between the city-states of Lagaš and Umma during the Early Dynastic III period, one of the earliest border conflicts recorded. (RIME 1.09.05.01)[66]

"Enlil, king of all the lands, father of all the gods, by his firm command, fixed the border between Ningirsu and Šara."

"Mesilim, king of Kiš, at the command of Ištaran, measured the field and set up a stele there."

"Ush, ruler of Umma, acted unspeakably."

"He ripped out that stele and marched toward the plain of Lagaš."

"Ningirsu, warrior of Enlil, at his just command, made war with Umma."

"At Enlil's command, he threw his great battle net over it and heaped up burial mounds for it on the plain."

"Eannatum, ruler of Lagash, uncle of Entemena, ruler of Lagaš"

"fixed the border with Enakale, ruler of Umma"

 

[davewhite04]

The earliest known written Sumerian accounts of gods or myths date to about 1600 BCE, more than a thousand years after the first known Sumerian writing. It was probably written by a specially educated class of priests, after spoken Sumerian had become extinct in general society, as Latin was used by priests in the Christian religion long after the Roman Empire was dust.

The earliest known Sumerian writing is stuff like this:


"Enlil, king of all the lands, father of all the gods, by his firm command, fixed the border between Ningirsu and Šara."


"Mesilim, king of Kiš, at the command of Ištaran, measured the field and set up a stele there."


"Ush, ruler of Umma, acted unspeakably."


"He ripped out that stele and marched toward the plain of Lagaš."


"Ningirsu, warrior of Enlil, at his just command, made war with Umma."


"At Enlil's command, he threw his great battle net over it and heaped up burial mounds for it on the plain."


"Eannatum, ruler of Lagash, uncle of Entemena, ruler of Lagaš"


"fixed the border with Enakale, ruler of Umma"

Yep.

 

[davewhite04]

The Sumerians made one, prophesy of their own:

https://www.ancient.eu/article/990/the-marduk-prophecy/

 

[iceaura]

The key point: writing did not have the status of "authority" - from "author" - then that it does now. People got their history and religion from professional storytellers who had memorized it, whose reputations and integrity backed it up. They wrote down mainly what the storytellers did not regard as worth memorizing, but needed to be on record for strangers or kings/administrators.

The Sumerians made one, prophesy of their own:

The Marduk Prophecy is not Sumerian, and is not among the older Sumerian writings. The Sumerian language had been dead for hundreds of years before that story was even commissioned by the Ruler who needed his awesomeness celebrated.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Have you ever tried dying for 3 days and going to hell?

No and neither has any made up human god...its a myth...how many times do I have to say that for you to realise I speak the truth...JC was just another Elvis impersonator according to easily accessible history.

Not mentioning the lashes of steal and leather whips, the nails struck through his hands? the dying, his crime? nothing.

It never happened
..it is a myth....nothing to see here.
Alex

 

[davewhite04]

The key point: writing did not have the status of "authority" - from "author" - then that it does now. People got their history and religion from professional storytellers who had memorized it, whose reputations and integrity backed it up. They wrote down mainly what the storytellers did not regard as worth memorizing, but needed to be on record for strangers or kings/administrators.

The Marduk Prophecy is not Sumerian, and is not among the older Sumerian writings. The Sumerian language had been dead for hundreds of years before that story was even commissioned by the Ruler who needed his awesomeness celebrated.

Do you know where Sumer was? Do you know who Marduk is?

 

[davewhite04]

No and neither has any made up human god...its a myth...how many times do I have to say that for you to realise I speak the truth...JC was just another Elvis impersonator according to easily accessible history.

It never happened
..it is a myth....nothing to see here.
Alex

With that attitude, you'll never learn, but you're not alone!

 

[iceaura]

Do you know where Sumer was? Do you know who Marduk is?

I read your link, at least.

It tells you who commissioned that story, when it was composed (and possibly but not certainly first written, long before the version preserved - let's say it was, that's still many hundreds of years after the last native speaker of Sumerian had died), and what it was about (the awesomeness of a Babylonian king).

Did you read your link?

 

[davewhite04]

I read your link, at least.

It tells you who commissioned that story, when it was composed (and possibly but not certainly first written, long before the version preserved - let's say it was, that's still many hundreds of years after the last native speaker of Sumerian had died), and what it was about (the awesomeness of a Babylonian king).

Did you read your link?

I have read it several times. Have you heard of the Marduk cult?

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Is it as crazy as saying the universe is eternal

No all the evidence points to an eternal universe.
It is undeniable.
Crazy is thinking thete is an eternal entity that pops out of eternity to create a finite universe with only one little spot to place its look alike made out of mud humans...come on that is as crazy an idea that you can make up.
You can accept an eternal does not get out much creator but not an eternal universe supported by our best science.

Were we helped?

Yes we discovered drugs...drink smoking pot and gold tops...so sure we started thinking some crazy stuff.
Religions were centered on taking some sort of mind destroying drug.

With that attitude, you'll never learn, but you're not alone!

Never say never.
Whats to learn other than the details of a myth and it is a myth.
JC was just another human god invented by humans and history shows that beyond any reasonable doubt...they were all based on astrology ... an effort to lonk to the Sun god...it is well known and there is no dispute...JC was a myth.
Alex

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Was there 2 Adam's? Why were Adam and Eve created exclusively?

You indulge a myth.
Where do you get these crazy notions?

Why do many of the creation myths start with darkness? It makes sense.

How do I know what drug effected ancient folk were thinking.
They got smashed and made up crazy shit ...

Did the writers understand what they were writing? How come there are similarities in stories between great civilisations? Why did the "gods" abandon us? Where are they now(they're immortal)?

Are you drinking bong water?

We were giving free will according to the bible right?

A book of fiction does not explain anything.

Jesus lived a perfect life without sin, and tried to inspire mankind to do the same.

You may as well look to Harry Potter for your morality.
Its all a myth..
Alex

 

[Michael 345]

I think an eternal God created Adam and Satan to exist for a short time in order to spawn learning which is the world we are born into.

How short was the short time for Adam? for Satan?

in order to spawn learning

And someone who stated "don't eat from the tree of knowledge" brings what you posted above as Plan B?

 

[davewhite04]

No all the evidence points to an eternal universe.
It is undeniable.

What evidence?

You can accept an eternal does not get out much creator but not an eternal universe supported by our best science.

I'm sure it is supported, but not by mainstream science man.

Yes we discovered drugs...drink smoking pot and gold tops...so sure we started thinking some crazy stuff.
Religions were centered on taking some sort of mind destroying drug.

Do you know who the first brewers of beer according to history/mythology? were?

and it is a myth.
JC was just another human god invented by humans and history shows that beyond any reasonable doubt...they were all based on astrology ... an effort to lonk to the Sun god...it is well known and there is no dispute...JC was a myth.

Do you mean the man didn't exist? or the other stuff?

 

[davewhite04]

You indulge a myth.
Where do you get these crazy notions?

The bible. If you want to discuss a religious text you can't keep on responding with "it's a myth", it's pointless.

Do you know you act like a one man band religion?

 

[Jan Ardena]

The bible. If you want to discuss a religious text you can't keep on responding with "it's a myth", it's pointless.

Do you know you act like a one man band religion?

That’s exactly what Alex is.
He has this strange notion that he is advocating science.
Maybe if one of his atheist chums, give him a gentle nudge, he may wale up.

Jan.

 

[iceaura]

I have read it several times.

Then why did you post it here, and greet my reposting of its content with questions and doubts?
It's not an example of anyone's earliest writing, it's not Sumerian, and it's about the awesomeness of a Babylonian king.
To revisit:

The oldest writings are carved into stone and baked into clay tablets, and there isn't much in the way of storytelling in them - about Gods or anything else.

That is, this:

Something happened within the past 6000 years that got man *thinking*, and it involved the introduction of writing in which the first things people wanted to write was about a God or gods, and logically enough the creation story according to how the people understood it.

is a false claim.