Integrating European Muslims: Europe’s Fearful Bid

[Proud_Muslim]

News coming from Europe over the last few weeks shows a rising trend within several European countries to assimilate Muslim inhabitants through new laws forcing Muslim women to give up their Islamic attire in public schools, sending Muslim refugees back home, and limiting the number of new Muslim clerics.

A closer look at Europe’s current economic and ideological circumstances and at the consequences of the latest regulations on European Muslims shows that Europe is taking the wrong route to integrate its Muslim population. On February 17th, Danish PM Anders Rasmussen announced various changes to immigration policies aimed at curbing the number of Muslim religious leaders allowed into Denmark. The proposed changes, which the parliament is expected to rapidly pass into law, are part of a deal reached last September between Denmark’s Liberal-Conservative government and its far-right ally, the Danish People's Party (DPP). "In theory, these rules concern all clerics from all religions. But in practice, they target the imams," a DPP spokesman Peter Skaarup told journalists in September.

On the same day, the Dutch Lower House voted to expel up to 26,000 failed asylum-seekers over the next three years. Many have been in the asylum process for years, and include Somalis, Afghans, Chechens, and stateless persons. The New York-based Human Rights Watch described the move as a violation of international standards that “signal a serious departure from the Netherlands’ historic role as a leader in human rights’ protection in Europe… [because] sending people back to places where they could be in danger not only jeopardizes their safety, it is illegal.”

Read more here:

http://www.islamonline.net/English/In_Depth/Hijab/2004-03/article_05.shtml

 

[Greco]

Proud Muslim I understand your concern about european integration of Muslim people or any foreigners for that matter. Perhaps mass migrations have crossed a social "threshold" that would trigger unwanted repercussions. I'm afraid that Islamic militancy has given rise to political groups whose only agenda is a counter attack on foreigners.

It's still not too late for Muslim militants to cool it for the betterment of the majority Muslims. Continued militancy will give rise to discusting Hitlerean tactics that befell the Jews during WWII.

I hear talk everywhere about the expulsion of Muslims from Europe as a last ditch effort to dwarth the rising tide of Muslim militancy. Human rights can only be implimented in a civilized society not one based on terror

 

[Vienna]

PS.

From your link:

"In Britain, where 1.6 million Muslims live, a London-based Islamic human rights group reported 344 incidents of anti-Muslim violence against Muslims in the year after September 11, including the stabbing of a Muslim woman."

And that was because of terrorism in the USA, What do you think will happen when terrorism strikes Britain?

"This will hinder Muslim integration into European society, as well as damage Europe’s image in the Muslim world."

Muslims image of Europe was confirmed recently in Madrid - and that really damaged Europes image of the Muslim world

"Instead, European countries should seek creative approaches to fully engage their Muslim communities in the struggle for economic reform and ideological moderation."

For whos benefit, certainly not Europe.


You never know PS, things just might get better for you when we see muslims fight the Taliban and Al Queda (FAT CHANCE!).

Anyone heard of muslims fighting terrorism???

 

[Alaric]

PM,
I live in Denmark, and some changes are definately needed to ensure that the imams do not preach messages that sow mistrust or hatred, or teach young Muslims that they have to resist the Danish social values (i.e. freedom of speech, not whether to drink or not, which is of course fine to disagree with). Many imams are self-appointed, and we can't have these guys teaching the next generation to hate the society they live in. Certainly, the problem is only with a few, but we can't have foreign missionaries of hatred trying to turn the immigrant population against the society. I think they want to open some imam school here so they can make sure they don't end up teaching a brand of Islam that has the ultimate aim of converting all Danes. Personally, I don't believe there should be freedom of speech to preach to overthrow freedom of speech! Nazi parties, communist parties and religious parties should be banned.

Just to add, I really can't stand the Danish People's Party, I'm not anti-immigrant in any way, and I don't like the monopoly position of the Lutheran church, but I'm not a big fan of religion either, and certainly not any form that seeks to erode our freedoms.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

I'm afraid that Islamic militancy has given rise to political groups whose only agenda is a counter attack on foreigners.

I agree with you, Militant Islamic groups are not doing Muslims in the west any favour.

It's still not too late for Muslim militants to cool it for the betterment of the majority Muslims. Continued militancy will give rise to discusting Hitlerean tactics that befell the Jews during WWII.

Well, you need to realize that the Muslims of the 21th century are not the Jews of the 20th century, we dont sit back watching muslims being slaughted, we hit back and hard.

If I see my fellow muslims being led to their death in Europe, I will be the FIRST SUICIDE MARTYER to blow up some NAZI PIGS with honour.

I hear talk everywhere about the expulsion of Muslims from Europe as a last ditch effort to dwarth the rising tide of Muslim militancy. Human rights can only be implimented in a civilized society not one based on terror

Here is a deal, you expell your muslim minorities, we expell our christian minority and the 200-400 thousands westerners living and working in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf region PLUS we switch OFF the oil taps, how about that ?

Fair deal, huh ?

 

[Proud_Muslim]

PM,
I live in Denmark, and some changes are definately needed to ensure that the imams do not preach messages that sow mistrust or hatred, or teach young Muslims that they have to resist the Danish social values (i.e. freedom of speech, not whether to drink or not, which is of course fine to disagree with). Many imams are self-appointed, and we can't have these guys teaching the next generation to hate the society they live in.

I totally agree with you, I have special bonds with Scandinavia, I live between the UK and Scandinavia and I know very well what you mean and I agree with you.

I agree that some imams are so extreme who came from totally different culture, but this does not mean Muslims have to give up their culture and their religion to be able to live in Denmark, after all, you need us and we need you, the need is mutual.

Certainly, the problem is only with a few, but we can't have foreign missionaries of hatred trying to turn the immigrant population against the society.

Agree.

I think they want to open some imam school here so they can make sure they don't end up teaching a brand of Islam that has the ultimate aim of converting all Danes. Personally, I don't believe there should be freedom of speech to preach to overthrow freedom of speech! Nazi parties, communist parties and religious parties should be banned.

Well, you should start with the Danish people party, they are NEO NAZIS in disguise, I met very moderate Imam from Copenhagen the other day and he told me that those people in government are making matter worse, for example, an immigrant needs to wait 10 years to be able to get the Danish passport !!

The Danish government went so pathetically far to even put SEVERE RESTRICTIONS on native danes who want to marry foriegner !! many danes are coming to live in south of Sweden !! this is unbearable !

Just to add, I really can't stand the Danish People's Party, I'm not anti-immigrant in any way, and I don't like the monopoly position of the Lutheran church, but I'm not a big fan of religion either, and certainly not any form that seeks to erode our freedoms.

Fair Enough, you got valid point, you guys want to keep your way of life, and we Muslims should and are respecting this, we dont aim to convert you, we dont aim at changing your way of life, and we are asking the same from the Danish people, TOLERANCE.

 

[Alaric]

As far as I remember you have to be 24 and have a certain level of income, certain size apartment etc to be allowed to bring in a foreign wife/husband. S/he also can't seek state support for something like 7 years. All designed to stop arranged weddings with people from their hometowns so they could come up here and get the dole, but its way too personal. I can accept limitations of support, but preventing married people to live together is too much. The government is predominantly liberal, which is great, but then it needs to act accordingly, increasing freedoms, not restricting them. The 2nd and 3rd generation are not nearly as conservative, anyway.

Its annoying because Denmark prides itself on tolerance and liberal attitudes - although honestly I think the public attitude is quite good, especially compared to other countries. Sweden is much more immigrant-friendly, but the discussion is almost taboo, so they are going to just get into a whole lot more trouble. Better to get the discussion out in the open, or people will just bottle up any unreasonable prejudices until it finally explodes and they wind up like Austria when Haider got in the government.

 

[Vienna]

Here is a deal, you expell your muslim minorities, we expell our christian minority and the 200-400 thousands westerners living and working in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf region PLUS we switch OFF the oil taps, how about that ?

Fair deal, huh ?

....... and the world will cut off all supplies to the Middle East

Go for it Muslim!

 

[Vienna]

Denmark, after all, you need us and we need you, the need is mutual.

Why on earth would Denmark NEED musliums????

an immigrant needs to wait 10 years to be able to get the Danish passport !!

Thats toooo soon, should be at least 30 years.

Fair Enough, you got valid point, you guys want to keep your way of life, and we Muslims should and are respecting this, we dont aim to convert you, we dont aim at changing your way of life, and we are asking the same from the Danish people, TOLERANCE.

In other words, "You let us live in your country and there will be no trouble."

"TOLERANCE"......LOL!

What does Islam know of tolerance???

 

[Proud_Muslim]

As far as I remember you have to be 24 and have a certain level of income, certain size apartment etc to be allowed to bring in a foreign wife/husband. S/he also can't seek state support for something like 7 years. All designed to stop arranged weddings with people from their hometowns so they could come up here and get the dole, but its way too personal.

Since when the job of the state is to tell its citizens who should or should not marry ???

I can accept limitations of support, but preventing married people to live together is too much. The government is predominantly liberal, which is great, but then it needs to act accordingly, increasing freedoms, not restricting them. The 2nd and 3rd generation are not nearly as conservative, anyway.

Well said, the problem is native Danes leaving their country in disgust, I know this guy from Denmark who married a Thai girl, the danish government wont recognize let alone let this poor girl in, so he left for Sweden, he is very angry at his government, he has a point.

Its annoying because Denmark prides itself on tolerance and liberal attitudes - although honestly I think the public attitude is quite good, especially compared to other countries.

Well, I hope you are right, from what I heard from Muslims living there, People are very racists ! I hope it is not true.

Sweden is much more immigrant-friendly, but the discussion is almost taboo, so they are going to just get into a whole lot more trouble.

Sweden is the BEST Scandinavian and indeed EUROPEAN country in favour of immigration, they are the best and I salute them for this, I have been to Stockholm few weeks ago, I saw how immigrants live and interact with the people, I did not hear complaint about the general public being racists, just those skinhead neo nazi scumbags who are very tiny minority.

Better to get the discussion out in the open, or people will just bottle up any unreasonable prejudices until it finally explodes and they wind up like Austria when Haider got in the government.

I agree, but dont you think Europe NEEDS Immigrants specially if we look at this:

Ageing: Europe's growing problem

According to the United Nations, ageing is increasingly becoming one of the most salient social, economic and demographic phenomena of our times.

In Europe, as in other continents of the world, the problem will be acute.

It is estimated that by 2050, the number of people over 60 in Europe will have doubled to 40% of the total population or 60% of the working age population.

Over the next few decades, the "baby boomers", the largest generation, born in the 1950s and 1960s, will start to retire.

The situation will be exacerbated by the very different expectations and life expectancy of their parents and grandparents.

Expectations of old age are not what they used to be.

This new scenario brings many opportunities, but there is also concern for how the system will cope.

How Europe could age*

Germany:
22,9% (2000), 30% (2020), 41% (2050)

Belgium:
22.1% (2000), 30% (2020), 38% (2050)

Denmark:
19.9% (2000), 28% (2020), 36% (2050)

Spain:
21.8% (2000), 28% (2020), 44% (2050)

France:
20.7% (2000), 29% (2020), 38% (2050)

*Persons 60 years and over as a % of the total population up to 2050. Source: Eurostat

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2248531.stm

 

[The Flemster]

Why on earth would Denmark NEED musliums????


Hear hear!

 

[The Flemster]

Proud Muslim, I have a question for you:

If Muslims are so intent on 'intergrating' into western society and only 'wish to practise their religion' in peace, then why, when running away-- sorry, 'immigrating'-- do they not go to any of the many Muslim countries around the world?
They're not all oppressive dictatorships and dusty shit-holes, are they?
Why choose a country where they know they're going to be less than welcome, such as America, England or anywhere else free-thinking people can express their opinions?

Is it, as I suspect, merely a way of 'intergrating' Westerners into the fun-loving, ham-dodging Muslim religion?

I'll pass, thanks. I like my bacon rolls too much.

Happy thoughts, PM, happy thoughts...!

 

[Alaric]

Flemster, the fact that they go to rich Western countries only shows that they care more about prosperity and making a future for their kids than they do about living in an Islamic society. They might be pretty conservative, just like Americans pre-1960's, but their kids don't usually follow in the same footsteps. Don't overestimate people's religiousity.

 

[Vienna]

Since when the job of the state is to tell its citizens who should or should not marry ???

Lol... I suppose you could say the same if a Muslim wanted to marry a Christian without interference from others, but I bet it wouldn't happen.

Sweden is the BEST Scandinavian and indeed EUROPEAN country in favour of immigration, they are the best and I salute them for this, I have been to Stockholm few weeks ago, I saw how immigrants live and interact with the people, I did not hear complaint about the general public being racists, just those skinhead neo nazi scumbags who are very tiny minority.

Of course you say Sweden is the BEST - but only because it favours immigration (who knows why)

I agree, but dont you think Europe NEEDS Immigrants specially if we look at this??

Whoa there my strokey bearded friend. Before you get carried away with your fantasy ideas of immigration let me tell you this.

The boom in immigration has been matched only by the determination of immigration celebrationists to brainwash the British public into thinking that it is all for their own good. But almost every reason given to support this immigration is bogus.

Britain doesn’t have a declining population — there are more births than deaths each year; it doesn’t have a declining workforce, largely because women’s retirement age is rising to 65 by 2020; as recognised by every authority from the Immigration Advisory Service to the United Nations and the European Commission, immigration is no “fix” for an ageing society, because immigrants grow old too; there are no generalised labour shortages, rather unemployment of 1.5 million; importing communities who are far more likely to claim all forms of benefit apart from pensions and disability allowances, and who can have startlingly high unemployment rates, does not make Britain a richer country. It is, in fact, importing poverty.

Immigration increases the size of the economy — how could it not? — but there is no evidence that it increases the one measure that matters, gross domestic product per capita. There are some shortages of skills, but only a tiny proportion of immigrants is plugging those gaps.

Sure, immigrants contribute more in taxes than they consume in benefits, but that is only because there are so many highly paid immigrants such as American bankers and European executives paying more than their share. Immigrants from the Third World — who are responsible for the entire net immigration of a quarter of a million a year — suffer higher unemployment and lower earnings than average and almost certainly do not pay their way.

The only reason for this net current immigration is not that Britain needs immigrants, but that immigrants want Britain. It is not even particularly good for the countries they come from. Stealing the most energetic, entrepreneurial or educated from the Third World is a very inefficient development policy.

The one thing it does do is change the face of Britain, rapidly. One child in eight is now from an ethnic minority, rising to one in three in London. So-called “ethnic minorities” together form a majority in boroughs such as Brent and Newham, and in whole neighbourhoods of cities in the North you can wander around for hours without seeing a white face, one monoculture having replaced another. Cities such as Coventry, Leicester and London are vying to see which can become the first white-minority city.

 

[Vienna]

Flemster, the fact that they go to rich Western countries only shows that they care more about prosperity and making a future for their kids than they do about living in an Islamic society. They might be pretty conservative, just like Americans pre-1960's, but their kids don't usually follow in the same footsteps. Don't overestimate people's religiousity.

Alaric, you mention America here. Well I'm not sure whether there are religious problems in the USA because of immigration, but I do know that Americans are losing their country, too, but Americans are not allowed to say so. Third World immigration to the United States is higher than to Britain. One in five of the U.S. population was born abroad or born of parents who were born abroad. This is a massive change from 1970, when new immigrants counted for only one in 20 U.S. births.

While the British worry about losing cities to Third World immigrants, the United States is losing entire states. Assimilation has broken down. In its place, Americans now endure Third World enclaves or colonies. As the United States becomes a polyglot, how can it have any foreign policy? How much longer will the United States be able to conduct a pro-Israeli foreign policy and plan invasions of Middle Eastern countries?

The outlines of U.S. domestic policy in the New Immigrationist State (NIS) are already apparent. The tax burdens on native-born whites will rise to meet the needs of the poor immigrants. The burden of the federal personal income tax rests on a narrow base of 35 million taxpayers who are, in effect, slaves of the state. The colonization of these taxpayers will intensify, as millions of needy new immigrants enter the United States each year.

The United States, like Britain, faces extinction as a nation-state. Both countries are becoming colonies for a plethora of Third World cultures.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Proud Muslim, I have a question for you:

If Muslims are so intent on 'intergrating' into western society and only 'wish to practise their religion' in peace, then why, when running away-- sorry, 'immigrating'-- do they not go to any of the many Muslim countries around the world?

Or we can put the question this way:

Why, if the west is so perfect, more than 200,000 westerners living and working in ''oppressive'' Saudi Arabia and other Gulf Muslim countries ???

There are hundreds of thousands of Muslims livining and working in other Muslim states such as Saudi, Kuwait, UAE....etc

They're not all oppressive dictatorships and dusty shit-holes, are they?

You know what I think of you ?? you are one of those burger eating, fat, dumb americans who dont know where is California on the map of the USA let alone the world !!

Move your fat ass from your hole and have a visit to other countries you FREEDOM FRIES DUMB !!

Why choose a country where they know they're going to be less than welcome, such as America, England or anywhere else free-thinking people can express their opinions?

Well, if you are talking about America, then it is not up to fat dumbs like you to decide who should or should not come to America, it is up to the NATIVE AMERICANS, now, get the hell out of America back to your Irish POTATO farm where you could starve and lose some weight, you asshole.

Is it, as I suspect, merely a way of 'intergrating' Westerners into the fun-loving, ham-dodging Muslim religion?

I'll pass, thanks. I like my bacon rolls too much.

Happy thoughts, PM, happy thoughts...!

As I expected, you are just a pig, dont get me wrong, filthy pig.

 

[Vienna]

Why, if the west is so perfect, more than 200,000 westerners living and working in ''oppressive'' Saudi Arabia and other Gulf Muslim countries ???

So that we can extract oil.

You know what I think of you ?? you are one of those burger eating, fat, dumb americans who dont know where is California on the map of the USA let alone the world !!

Move your fat ass from your hole and have a visit to other countries you FREEDOM FRIES DUMB !!

Well, if you are talking about America, then it is not up to fat dumbs like you to decide who should or should not come to America, it is up to the NATIVE AMERICANS, now, get the hell out of America back to your Irish POTATO farm where you could starve and lose some weight, you asshole.

As I expected, you are just a pig, dont get me wrong, filthy pig

And you crave tolerance with an attitude like yours.

Your sort aren't welcome in any country - Including your own.

 

[567]

Viena muslims are every where..............and they are there to stay. ..... you can't do Jack about it.

Now don't go start killing all the brown skin people since you are pretty ignorant and cant differe between a christian arab/muslim arab/ahtiest arab/jewish arab or hell you can't tell a differnce between mexican and indian. lol

 

[Alaric]

Alaric, you mention America here. ... The United States, like Britain, faces extinction as a nation-state. Both countries are becoming colonies for a plethora of Third World cultures.

First of all, America is not, and has never been, a nation-state. The whole idea (in theory, at least) was to have a free country where people could come and believe, and mostly do, as they wished. It was supposed to be a colony for cultures throughout the world. In fact Denmark is one of the very few real nation-states in the world - one people, one language, few areas outside of Denmark where Danes live together (a community lives south of the border in Germany). Britain could probably be called a nation-state to some extent, but its still made up of British, Cornish, Welsh, Scottish, Manx and Irish. And likewise with many countries throughout Europe. Basques, for example, are a nation without a state, and the US (and technically every American country) is a state without a nation. That's not to say one is better than the other - I think the American idea makes more sense ideologically, but is difficult to realise effectively. Strong common bonds within a community are very important to people, allowing greater trust among the members - that's also probably why Americans are more fanatically liberal and/or religious than Danes, who take common bonds for granted, but then are less tolerant to divergent views.

Of course you still develop some kind of common identity, but unlike a nation-state which centres around a common culture and history, the US is based on a liberal ideology. That's why new immigrants have to make that pledge of allegience to respect the Constitution, but otherwise are left pretty much to fend for themselves, while Danes just tell immigrants (that make it in) to respect the national values and assimilate themselves to Danish norms. There's a big difference.

And what tax burden? You Americans don't know what heavy taxation is...we have to cope with over 50%. That's another quirk with the nation-state - governments win elections by promising more services, better health care, and therefore higher taxes, while in the US the sense of community isn't so great so you just want to keep as much of what you earn as possible (it seems).

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Viena muslims are every where..............and they are there to stay. ..... you can't do Jack about it.

Now don't go start killing all the brown skin people since you are pretty ignorant and cant differe between a christian arab/muslim arab/ahtiest arab/jewish arab or hell you can't tell a differnce between mexican and indian. lol

Vienna is confused man, May God help him, I dont hate him, I feel sorry for him, his hate will consume him:

HATE IS FIRE THAT ENGULFS THE HATER FIRST...