I have researched the topic of heaven for about thirty years, and found that it transcends all societies, but two basic views can be found, the popular one of it being a mythical ghost land, and the other a real physical place. I am not interested debating anything from a philosophical standpoint, I only want to discuss the physical aspects or features of heaven. You will be surprised at their consistancy regardless of culture or religion.
Info on heaven
- Thread starter Gerhard Kemmerer
- Start date
As far as I know, Siddhartha Gautama (the Buddha) claimed to be clueless about what happens to us after we die. While he did mention reincarnation, he had no thoughts on the interim between lives. Then Yeshua bar Joseph (Jesus) seemed to be fond of making the point that heaven is ideally here and now (re: my avatar). So having cited the 'experts', I don't know that there is much more to say.
As for the consistency of the myth, sure why not? Flood myths are also very consistent. Even in Australian aboriginal or Meso-american versions -unrelated to the Middle eastern stories- they have the bit where a bird is sent out to search for dry land. Creationists and their ilk like to see this as 'proof', but the fact is that were you on a ship in a flooded world, sending out a bird to look for dry land would be a no-brainer. What else is there to do but scan the horizon?
So it is hardly surprising heaven myths are similar, most people have very similar ideas of happiness and comfort.
As for the consistency of the myth, sure why not? Flood myths are also very consistent. Even in Australian aboriginal or Meso-american versions -unrelated to the Middle eastern stories- they have the bit where a bird is sent out to search for dry land. Creationists and their ilk like to see this as 'proof', but the fact is that were you on a ship in a flooded world, sending out a bird to look for dry land would be a no-brainer. What else is there to do but scan the horizon?
So it is hardly surprising heaven myths are similar, most people have very similar ideas of happiness and comfort.
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3 wise men
Yes, the myth part is consistant, and seeing would be believing, and also the proliferance of a legend is not necessarily proof thereof, even if it answers to a common need like happiness and comfort.
You are all with it, but I was not after a confirmation of whether it exists or not, but on those features which are common to the physical view of heaven.
For example, the ancient Egyptians in the earliest dynasties, talked about the afterlife as a real physical place among the stars. The constellation of Orion is often associated with the gate or path to heaven. In later dynasties the concepts of the afterlife became increasingly mythical.
Another example, some African tribes view heaven as resting on a planet among the stars.
Hebrew cultures view heaven as a restoration of paradise, like on earth at creation, so it implies a physical reality.
Heaven has many specific dimensions, again that are physical.
This thread is not about proving or disproving an idea, but as a resource for missing pieces of the puzzle, of which I have a great collection.
Yes, the myth part is consistant, and seeing would be believing, and also the proliferance of a legend is not necessarily proof thereof, even if it answers to a common need like happiness and comfort.
You are all with it, but I was not after a confirmation of whether it exists or not, but on those features which are common to the physical view of heaven.
For example, the ancient Egyptians in the earliest dynasties, talked about the afterlife as a real physical place among the stars. The constellation of Orion is often associated with the gate or path to heaven. In later dynasties the concepts of the afterlife became increasingly mythical.
Another example, some African tribes view heaven as resting on a planet among the stars.
Hebrew cultures view heaven as a restoration of paradise, like on earth at creation, so it implies a physical reality.
Heaven has many specific dimensions, again that are physical.
This thread is not about proving or disproving an idea, but as a resource for missing pieces of the puzzle, of which I have a great collection.
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But how can there be missing pieces of the puzzle if it's all just wishful thinking? I appreciate that you don't want to argue the existence or non-existence of heaven, but I can't see the point in discussing 'features which are common to the physical view of heaven' if it is merely a myth and/or legend.
You don't have to accept a myth or legend to understand more of it. This thread is like finding an old artifact. If you have any info I can tell you if it has been found elsewhere, or more about it, but if not, someone else may, and that will add to the picture.
Kumar, I have read some of your other posts to try and understand, do you mean that the experience of heaven would be one of an optimum existance based on the path of least resistance? It is interesting that matter tries to do that naturally, and in an ideal world there would be balance and harmony. This concept is not uncommon in Islamic countries, and is also found in Buddhism.
Its good to start with a clean blank page.
The legend of heaven is not totally lost, but in our day and culture unknown, even by those who profess to believe in it.
So here are a few features that are common from those legends that take the physical point of view;
heaven is a (1) city which is large enough to be called a (2) country and is also called a (3) single great mountain. Sometimes it is called a place of (4) numerous mountains, and there are (5) eight mountains at the pinnacle. Another common feature mentioned is a (6) single street or main highway paved with gold. Christians often talk about streets - plural, of gold, but some south American legends only mention a single golden street. Also the original Christian Bible only mentions a single street of gold. In regards to gold, the ground in the northern sector of heaven has a high quantity of gold, exposed by the paths and rivers (legend from India) This could validate the idea of multiple streets of gold.
In regards to the myth of hell, it is as common as the legend of heaven, but generally linked with the mythical views, rather than the physical opinion. The concept of hell is also more prevalent with civilizations, and rare among tribes people who tend to equate heaven with physical realities, such as the earth, planets and stars.
Hello GK, Yes ideal will be that which will be in balance and harmony eg. nature balance(when all things and beings are in perfect harmony to each other). This state bring "live & let live" whereas imbalanced state bring "might is right" & survival of fittest". It ia also relevant to state when all behave with equanimity. Moving toward this state and getting this state should make one to feel heavenly like experance.
The modern notion of heaven probably originated out of the Greek incursion into Persia. A syncretic exchange occurred, and the people who would become known as Christians inherited notions of heaven and hell, angels and demons, and life after death.
Prior to that, the notion of a "heaven" and "hell" were combined into a Hebrew "sheol", something similar to the Egyptian underworld.
The Persian influence had apparently taken root by the time the Jesus story had taken root. But it also seems to have traumatized the Gnostics, who blamed the Creator-God (Yahweh) for creating something as evil as Hell and the devils.
Yes there are constant overlappings of ideas, often carried by conquering empires. This would fragment any previous ideas. Nevertheless some of the points have survived all that, and by collecting the bits, we end up with a picture. The mythical views are somewhat inconsistant except for a couple of main factors, but the physical views, we guess, had to remain identifiable. I want to give away my findings, but only as they relate to contributions.
kx000
Valued Senior Member
Your a fool if you think heaven didn't long exist before the human imagination, if there so be such a place, obviously.
Prove your not sarcastic or close thread. Even if you are not sarcastic, why are we discussing something none of us have any factual evidence on except I believe it exist, and that other guy who's about to post does not believe?
K
keith1
Guest
Your playing with turd fragments from primordial cave-gas sniffers.
You've collected little scraps of green, yellow, round, shard, long, turd fragments, hoping to reassemble the ancient original tapestry...of a turd.
Some people collect stamps. For you, it's the scat piles outside Jerusalem and at Mathews house on the Galilee...:crazy:
Pretty sure heaven has good Feng Shui.
Do you know of any Feng Shui that would work on a grand scale? I have a limited understanding of that practice and think it has something to do with placement for pleasing effects? I know that with real estate some people hire Feng Shui practitioners to check the house out before they buy.
Pssst! GK, I'm pretty sure spidergoat was being sarcastic. :shh:
You are probably not used to people discussing something without trying to moralise or convince you, particularly on this subject, because it is generally associated with religion.
This thread is just for more info on the legend, that's all.
The legend is part of history, of what people have had in their culture etc.
You indicated that you don't know much about the legend, so I gave you some commonly known details. The legend is quite wide spread - geographically and throughout all eras, and that opinion is shared by historians, anthropologists etc. You will find many publications dealing with the subject, not necessarily in religious book shops either.