I'm not trying to bash christianity, but...

(Q) said:
More, we have to rid the world of religion altogether, for wherever it exists, there will always be corruption, hatred, oppression and fear.
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Im not religious, but i can tell you none of those things are unique to religion. Getting rid of religion wont necessarily lead to a sane, happy, and rational world. Infact just look at the chinese with their secular supression of the tibetans, just goes to show that overwraught atheism is every bit the evil that overwraught religion is.
 
Rokkon said:
I wasn't trying to say that all churches were like this. My bad for not emphasizing that. I was trying to refer to the more common kinds.

Did I say the churches had to do it blatantly? I was mostly referring to the more subtle discrimination, like when they tell those children's stories about how this one guy's life sucked, but then he became Christian and he either instantly has a better life or is more accepting of his life, or when they tell children that the only way to heaven is through Jesus, or when they constantly tell people to spread the word to the infidels about Jesus dying for our sins, or when they say that people of other religions have been lied to, or that they need money to support missionaries teaching other countries that their religions are ridiculous, or whatever else there is. Of course they don't just say "These people are wrong, let's hate them." I have had a long history with one church, shorter histories with at least two others, I have gone to at least 3 different Christian youth groups, I have personally known several other people who have had their own experiences with a church, and I have seen plenty of fundamentalists on the internet (yeah, I know, what DON'T you see there?). Most of the supervisors of the churches/groups I went to knew barely anything about the beliefs of the people they have judged (several of them thought the Big Bang theory was about two meteors that crashed together, and even more thought that Buddhists actually worship Buddha as a god). They always talked about how Muslims are all terrorists or wannabe terrorists, about how the crusades should have been a victory for the Christians, about how pagans are all satanists, or how Christians were persecuted some time ago, but never once about the Ku Klux Klan, and barely talking about the Holocaust. It is through these subtle methods that mainstream churches teach children how to hate.
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Well, you are perceptive and see thier subtle ploys. If they come right out and say it, they can't fool others or themselves. They feed it to you little by little with window dressing. It is all about self-serving agendas and hate, it's very political.
 
heliocentric said:
Im not religious, but i can tell you none of those things are unique to religion. Getting rid of religion wont necessarily lead to a sane, happy, and rational world. Infact just look at the chinese with their secular supression of the tibetans, just goes to show that overwraught atheism is every bit the evil that overwraught religion is.
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I would have to agree with some of that. I don't agree with their oppressing of tibetans but then I don't think any religion or group should oppress or intimidate anyone into conversion either. The chinese see them as not getting with it and backwater. I don't agree completely with buddhism but thier message of peace, respect for others and tolerance I think is superior. But this only works when everyone does, not when one group is trying to push thier point of view only because it has the effect of oppressing others in effect and outcome.
 
heliocentric said:
Im not religious, but i can tell you none of those things are unique to religion. Getting rid of religion wont necessarily lead to a sane, happy, and rational world. Infact just look at the chinese with their secular supression of the tibetans, just goes to show that overwraught atheism is every bit the evil that overwraught religion is.
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You're wasting your time. Dogmatic thinking is impervious to reason:p .
 
heliocentric said:
Im not religious, but i can tell you none of those things are unique to religion. Getting rid of religion wont necessarily lead to a sane, happy, and rational world.
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I don't ever recall saying it would. But, it would certainly rid the world of a lot of it. We can work on the Chinese/Tibetan problem, as well.

And, like sam, you too don't seem to understand that communism has more to do with religion than atheism. They appear to be very much the same thing.
 
(Q) said:
More, we have to rid the world of religion altogether, for wherever it exists, there will always be corruption, hatred, oppression and fear.QUOTE]

Actually, I'm more for a kind of utopian peaceful coexistence between deists (like a theist, except disregarding faith and scripture as non-credible sources of information, and instead forming theories based on what science has explained as well as what science has left open for debate to explain what is entirely metaphysical in nature) and atheists, where people can openly share ideas and learn from one another, so that in the end, we can reach the truth, whether it be deistic or atheistic. How we can acheive this is by treating religion as some sort of metaphysical science; the way people currently treat it makes further growth of ideas impossible, therefore this utopia I dream of will require a major change in not only religious beliefs, but in the very definition of religion itself. Yes, I do realize that this goal of mine is extravagently unrealistic, but I think it's worth it.
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(Q) said:
I don't ever recall saying it would. But, it would certainly rid the world of a lot of it. We can work on the Chinese/Tibetan problem, as well.

And, like sam, you too don't seem to understand that communism has more to do with religion than atheism. They appear to be very much the same thing.
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And you fail to understand that ideologies are all dangerous when they become exclusivist.

The ideal would be more syncretism in culture.
 
(Q) said:
Hence, we free ourselves of those ideologies. Nice to see we agree.
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Rokkon said:
How we can acheive this is by treating religion as some sort of metaphysical science; the way people currently treat it makes further growth of ideas impossible, therefore this utopia I dream of will require a major change in not only religious beliefs, but in the very definition of religion itself. Yes, I do realize that this goal of mine is extravagently unrealistic, but I think it's worth it.
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Religion is superstition and myth. Toss it in the dust-bin of history, where it belongs. ~Morris
 
Rokkon said:
I think that what S.A.M. is trying to say is that atheism can sometimes be equally as bad as theism.
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So, a lack of belief in myth and superstition is equally as bad as its belief?

:shrug:
 
Rokkon said:
I think that what S.A.M. is trying to say is that atheism can sometimes be equally as bad as theism.
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Like with anything, it's how it's used. You can use a knife to do surgery and heal or kill. Fundamental religion is criticized more because it is inherently intolerant and is just as politically active with their own agendas against others. Atheism is just nonbelief and of course, it can be used by it's proponents to attack or destroy those who practice a religion or other philosphy. I don't think it's wrong to criticize a religion or philosphy that is known for these tactics, otherwise how would you defend yourself against their own prejudice. I don't think it's right to attack a people, philosphy or religion that is peaceful and is not trying to do this though. I have never seen christianity or islam as peaceful or understanding of others views. It's criticized because people know if given a greater foothold, it would run off with it and do what it really intends to do.
 
(Q) said:
Religion is superstition and myth. Toss it in the dust-bin of history, where it belongs. ~Morris
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Yes, and deism tries to change the fact that religion is superstition and myth by reaching religious conclusions from scientific evidence and rationalism, without the smallest bit of mythology. And of course, a lot of what we believe is very different from mainstream theistic beliefs; most of us would even say that God just created the universe and did absolutely nothing else to it, essentially leaving the various laws of physics and other scientifically proven concepts in control of everything afterwards. We simply reach a different conclusion from our scientific research, and would be more than happy to convert to atheism if our beliefs are absolutely proven wrong beyond our own justifications (implying that we still have some justification for our beliefs which we have not yet witnessed disproven). And we do recognize that we could be wrong.
 
Rokkon said:
most of us would even say that God just created the universe and did absolutely nothing else to it, essentially leaving the various laws of physics and other scientifically proven concepts in control of everything afterwards.
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But, then you could eliminate another level of complexity and confusion by simply removing god from the equation altogether and leave it at that - the universe came about all on its own, naturally, with physics.
 
(Q) said:
But, then you could eliminate another level of complexity and confusion by simply removing god from the equation altogether and leave it at that - the universe came about all on its own, naturally, with physics.
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Something from nothing is physics? Darn, I knew I'd regret dozing in that class.:p
 
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