"ILLEGAL ALIEN" Dies on Hospital After Being Ignored for 45 Minutes

[TruthSeeker]

Reverse the situation. If a US citizen entered Mexico illegally and then demanded immediate healthcare at a hospital there, he would be laughed into his grave. (If he wasn't arrested, bribed, extorted, and deported first.)

You are such an incredible racist...........

 

[TruthSeeker]

The topic of the thread is "ILLEGAL ALIEN" Dies on Hospital After Being Ignored.

No. No one should be left to die.

Ok. So I presume that means that an illegal immigrant should receive treatment in an american hospital even if they have no money, in which case the treatment should be payed with american taxpayers dollars.

Wow. I'm sorry to have picked on you. Maybe you are not as bad as I thought......

Would the Mexican government pay for YOUR emregency treatment? Oh hell no. Would they treat you at their hospital if they knew you were a criminal alien? Oh hell no.

How do you know that? Let's see.

I don't think we know the whole story of the woman. When I worked in a hospital there were things most people never knew/saw.

Like....?

 

[TruthSeeker]

The title is meant to stir debate. But the true debate should be about a health system that has bred medical professionals to not do what they are meant to do.

I'm pleased with your wisdom.

So because the Mexican government may not pay for emergency treatment, the US should do the same? Sink to their level? And here I thought the US was trying to hold itself above everyone else.

Good point.

It is not a question of paying. It is a question of human decency.

Precisely.

The legality of the patients immigration status should not be determined before they receive care.

Apparently, it was. That's why the police came and took her to the police car. The article only sad that was a warrant for her arrest. But when I watched on TV, that was mentioned. (I didn't include that "little" detail because I couldn't find any proof online.)

What do you need to know about the woman that would alter the ending? She was sick, went to a hospital and was ignored as she died. What she was or may have done prior to her going to the hospital should have no bearing on the "story".

Yes! Yes!

 

[TruthSeeker]

Really... what impresses me in this story is how she pent 45 minutes on the floor, and then instead of receiving her care after being ignored for 45 minutes, the police comes to arrest her for being an "illegal" immigrant, at which point she dies. That's what disgusts me.

 

[TruthSeeker]

And just how far should that "human decency" go, Bells? I mean, should "human decency" force us to apply those same rules to other countries of the world?

If you talk of "human decency", does that apply to the poverty-stricken people of Mexico? Of India? Of Africa? People in those places die all the time while little or nothing is done for them.

And if it does not apply to all humans, all over the world, then "human decency" must only apply to certain "humans", huh?

Baron Max

People in poor countries die, yes. But that's because they don't have enough resources to treat those people- not because they were blatantly ignored an denied help! Big, BIG difference there.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Thank you.
All that are arguing about whether "the government" should pay for the care that she needed are missing the point. A hospital (at least in the US) is legally obligated to provide care for a life-threatening emergency.

Yes. So why was she arrested instead? Please, enlighten me.

As for it being a race issue, it is. Not because she was illegal, but because she was poor, not because she was Hispanic, but because she was poor, and because she was poor and Hispanic she went to MLK -- to this hospital:

http://www.nationalreview.com/dunphy/dunphy200404080849.asp

That was certainly an issue. But again, why was she arrested instead!!?!?!? Is everyone simply going to ignore that?

The ethical issue here isn't the idea of most people being evil, that Truthseeker would like to convey.

O...k........
Please, show me where I said that. :bugeye:

The ethical issue is - does a person have an innate right to medical care?

I ansered that myself with an obvious rhetoric quiestion. The issue here is the conflict between saving this person's life with her status as an illegal immigrant!

 

[TruthSeeker]

Please, let's revisit the quotes I posted....

"Arriving to find Rodriguez on the floor, her boyfriend unsuccessfully tried to enlist help from the medical staff and county police — even a 911 dispatcher, who balked at sending rescuers to a hospital.

Alerted to the "disturbance" in the lobby, police stepped in — by running Rodriguez's record. They found an outstanding warrant and prepared to take her to jail. She died before she could be put into a squad car."

Ok. So... wtf. She obviously needed medical help. Then the police comes in because she had an outstanding warrant? So they DON'T come in and people call for help to save her life. But they DO come in when they can take her to jail. I mean... gu-uuuuuys! What's uo with that!?!? Do you guys AGREE with that!?!?!?!?!

"Hours after her death, county Department of Health Services spokesman Michael Wilson sent a note informing county supervisors' offices about the incident but saying that that police had been called because Rodriguez's boyfriend became disruptive.

Health services Director Dr. Bruce Chernof said Friday that subsequent information showed Prado was not, in fact, disruptive. Chernof otherwise refused to comment, citing the open investigation, patient privacy and "other issues."

These "other issues" he is refusing to comment on is the legality of her presence in the country- ie, she's an illegal immigrant.

Peavy, who supervises the sheriff's homicide unit, said that although his investigation is not complete, "the county police did absolutely, absolutely nothing wrong as far as we're concerned.""

Nothing wrong!!?!?!?!? Wtf... They took a dying woman out of the hospital and into a police car to take her to jail!!!!!!! WTF?!!?!?!?



And... I should add this:

"Wow," she said. "If she was on the floor for that long, how in the heck did nobody help her then?

"Where was their heart? Where was their humanity? … When Jose came in, everybody was just sitting, looking. Where were they?"

Sanchez said her sister was a giving person who always took an interest in people in need, unlike those who watched her suffer. "She would have taken her shoes to give to somebody with no shoes," she said. Rodriguez, a California native, performed odd jobs and lived alternately with different relatives.

First highlight: she wasn't a criminal. She wasn't a danger to society. She was considered illegal though. So should she be considered illegal?
Second highlight: clear indication of her immigration status.

 

[TruthSeeker]

So... sandy. Do you agree that this illegal immigrant should have received care, as opposed to being dragged to a police car and thrown in jail?

 

[Xev]

Truthseeker:

First highlight: she wasn't a criminal. She wasn't a danger to society. She was considered illegal though. So should she be considered illegal?

No, she's a US citizen if she was born in California.

Yes. So why was she arrested instead? Please, enlighten me.

Your post answered your own question:

"Alerted to the "disturbance" in the lobby, police stepped in — by running Rodriguez's record. They found an outstanding warrant and prepared to take her to jail. She died before she could be put into a squad car.""

That was certainly an issue. But again, why was she arrested instead!!?!?!? Is everyone simply going to ignore that?

"Alerted to the "disturbance" in the lobby, police stepped in — by running Rodriguez's record. They found an outstanding warrant and prepared to take her to jail. She died before she could be put into a squad car.""

 

[lucifers angel]

they shouldve given the person the treatment no one deserves to die at all, there is no excuse for people who take a vow to care and heal people to ignore people!

 

[Baron Max]

People in poor countries die, yes. But that's because they don't have enough resources to treat those people- ...

How do you know that the hospital had the resources to treat that woman at the time? All of the doctors might have been busy saving other lives ...why are you so sure that she was ignored willfully, as opposed to the staff being too busy with others?

As to the other poor people in the world ...if it's a "human right" to medical care, then shouldn't we go to Africa and Asia and India, etc and treat all of those people? Why are you so upset with this one case, when there are millions in need all over the world? Shouldn't you be equally upset about them .....if it's a "human right" issue for you???? Or is that just all bullshit talk?

Baron Max

 

[Baron Max]

they shouldve given the person the treatment no one deserves to die at all, there is no excuse for people who take a vow to care and heal people to ignore people!

Maybe the doctors and nurse were all busy caring for others? Did you think of that at all? We have emergency rooms here in Dallas that are packed full of people 24 hours a day ...waiting for a doctor or nurse, who are all busy as hell treating others.

Baron Max

 

[lucifers angel]

Maybe the doctors and nurse were all busy caring for others? Did you think of that at all? We have emergency rooms here in Dallas that are packed full of people 24 hours a day ...waiting for a doctor or nurse, who are all busy as hell treating others.

Baron Max

well over here they have 3 stages before you go and see a doctor in an ER they have the valuation nurse then the nurse to see if she can do anything and then she will pass your details onto the dr, but at no point are you left to suffer, example, about 6yrs ago my son had a bad fall and broke his arm, he was screaming, and he was with someone at all times the dr saw him within 20mins, so i cant believe that anyone sits in a waitign room and suffers, i know that hospitals can and do get very busy but nurses are called from differant departments in my local hospital if one department gets to busy,

 

[Bells]

And just how far should that "human decency" go, Bells? I mean, should "human decency" force us to apply those same rules to other countries of the world?

Doctors take an oath to help people. Governments do not. You decide.

If you talk of "human decency", does that apply to the poverty-stricken people of Mexico? Of India? Of Africa? People in those places die all the time while little or nothing is done for them.

Ask the doctors in those countries if they would stand idly by and watch someone die on the floor for over a period of 45 minutes without giving them so much as a paracetamol. If they say yes, then congratulations. It means the doctors in the US have sunk as low as those in 3rd world countries. If they say no, then be happy with the knowledge that doctors in the US have sunk lower than their counterparts in 3rd world "poverty stricken" countries.

And if it does not apply to all humans, all over the world, then "human decency" must only apply to certain "humans", huh?

Of course. If a human being enters a hospital and is sick, they should at least have their temperature taken. To let someone die on the floor and not even approach them kind of takes away the notion of care that doctors are supposedly trained and take an oath to give.

Bells, please don't taunt it.

But it is cute when it gets riled up.

The ethical issue here isn't the idea of most people being evil, that Truthseeker would like to convey. The ethical issue is - does a person have an innate right to medical care?

The answer to that is yes. A sick person entering a hospital for help or care does have an innate right to medical care. To refuse and to ignore that patient is a breach of their ethical obligation. It is also a breach of their hippocratic oath as well as the State law. In 2006 the State in California, commenced action against the Kaiser Foundation Hospitals for their practice of dumping homeless people on the street away from the hospital without giving them the care they needed.

In announcing the criminal and civil charges, City Attorney Rocky Delgadillo said a Kaiser Permanente hospital put the woman in a taxi and sent her to the neighborhood even though she had serious, untreated health problems.

"Kaiser Foundation Hospitals, part of Kaiser Permanente, the largest HMO in the nation, will be held accountable for violating state law, its commitment to its patients, its obligations under the Hippocratic oath, and perhaps most importantly, principles of common decency,"Delgadillo said.
Link

The same principle could apply to this woman's case.

And I ask because just recently a news story I heard was complaining about ambulances being refused care at some closer hospitals and they had to drive a lot further to be admitted to emergency service. So ...how can a hospital refuse to see an emergency/ambulance patient if it's the law???

The patient was in an ambulance and receiving care from the paramedics. Had the patient been dying or in such a serious condition that death could be imminent, then the closest hospital would have an obligation to help them, even if their emergency room was full.

 

[Baron Max]

The patient was in an ambulance and receiving care from the paramedics. Had the patient been dying or in such a serious condition that death could be imminent, then the closest hospital would have an obligation to help them, even if their emergency room was full.

Nope, apparently not. They just radio the ambulance and say, "Sorry, we can't take any more emergency cases." Done ....the ambulance has to find another hospital emergency room.

Baron Max

 

[Xev]

Baron:

Maybe the doctors and nurse were all busy caring for others? Did you think of that at all?

Too busy to treat the woman who was vomiting blood?

Bells:

The same principle could apply to this woman's case.

Okay, but the Hippocratic oath also talks treating slaves, balancing humors and not performing abortions. How on earth can it be legally binding? Last I knew, we outlawed slavery, stopped leeching people and abortion is legal.

 

[Baron Max]

Baron: Too busy to treat the woman who was vomiting blood?

But how do you know that all of the other patients were not in the same or worse shape ....and the doctors and nurses were all busy?

See? Saying something, making blind accusations is one thing, but finding any substantiating evidence isn't so simple. At Parkland Hospital here in Dallas, people die in the emergency waiting rooms all the time ....and the doctors and nurses are busy as hell with other, important patients. Yet you'd have them stop treating some patients to help others??? And you know all of this ....how?

Baron Max

 

[Bells]

Okay, but the Hippocratic oath also talks treating slaves, balancing humors and not performing abortions. How on earth can it be legally binding? Last I knew, we outlawed slavery, stopped leeching people and abortion is legal.

The revised and modern version of oath:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/oath_modern.html

History of the oath:

http://www.scienceweek.com/2004/sa040917-6.htm

But how do you know that all of the other patients were not in the same or worse shape ....and the doctors and nurses were all busy?

See? Saying something, making blind accusations is one thing, but finding any substantiating evidence isn't so simple. At Parkland Hospital here in Dallas, people die in the emergency waiting rooms all the time ....and the doctors and nurses are busy as hell with other, important patients. Yet you'd have them stop treating some patients to help others??? And you know all of this ....how?

When a patient is in a hospital emergency waiting room and collapses on the floor or begins to vomit blood, it is fairly obvious to even the most stupid that this individual is in dire need of medical help. To then have doctors and nurses, trained to recognise such symptoms as being dire, then stand by and do nothing. Well it means they weren't doing their job properly now doesn't it?

In an emergency room, doctors and nurses are meant to prioritise and the patients who are in more urgent need of treatment tend to be bumped up the list.

 

[Baron Max]

To then have doctors and nurses, trained to recognise such symptoms as being dire, then stand by and do nothing.

Are you making unsubstantiated accusations again?

In an emergency room, doctors and nurses are meant to prioritise and the patients who are in more urgent need of treatment tend to be bumped up the list.

Maybe they did. You don't know, do you? And yet you keep making those accusations without a single thread of evidence. And I thought you were a lawyer????

Baron Max

 

[Bells]

Are you making unsubstantiated accusations again?

Lets see. She was in an emergency waiting room vomitting blood. She did not receive any care and she died. Speaks for itself doesn't it?

Maybe they did. You don't know, do you? And yet you keep making those accusations without a single thread of evidence. And I thought you were a lawyer????

It's what lawyers do.

And refer to above to the rest in regards to the evidence currently at hand in this thread. I can't be bothered typing it out again.