If there's a God Is there also a Devil?
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Enigma,
Kat
Why must there be a purpose to life?
Because if we didn’t we would likely have killed each other and we would now be extinct. Even wild dogs form communities and share the burden of nurturing their young, and hunt in packs for mutual benefit, etc. These are evolutionary characteristics that have increased the survival chances of the species and in that regard no different to humans.
The alternative is oblivion and that is infinitely less attractive. Certainly if you are incapable of generating your own purpose then indeed your life is worthless.
Does it matter how we arrived? Isn’t it more valuable to cherish the fact that we do exist and enjoy the moment?
Kat
Because otherwise we should all go out and commit suicide.
My purpose in life is my relationship with with God. I was just wondering about the purpose of those that don't believe in a higher being.
I guess it just seems to me that life seems to be an accident, we're just some cosmic mistake. How special.
Enigma'07 said:Because otherwise we should all go out and commit suicide.
My purpose in life is my relationship with with God. I was just wondering about the purpose of those that don't believe in a higher being.
I guess it just seems to me that life seems to be an accident, we're just some cosmic mistake. How special.
I can give you my purpose of life, it is like: Doing what you want to do. Or another possibility: Having fun while you can. And I really don´t think that life has a real purpose. We are just here to continue our race and the rest? Whatever you want.
But then by the same token, a non-believer could say the same to a believer. You all seem so eager to get to your next life of absolute harmony and love, that there seems to be little to no point in hanging around in this one. I guess all that stops you is that suicide is classed a sin, no?
I mean really.. what more joy could come of your life other than your death where you get to meet up with he whom you worship?
Whereas we can say the purpose for your existence is to die and go to heaven, our purpose is to survive - nothing more.
My purpose in life is my relationship with my daughter who is quite real and observable, doesn't ask me to love her - but has earnt it with everything she does or says, doesn't ask for sacrifice- but I am more than willing to give it for her. Does not need to ask me to worship her - but I do anyway.. etc etc etc. She is above and beyond what god could even wish to be. Everything god needs to ask for but is often denied, my daughter doesn't need to ask for, but always receives.
For what reason must you be 'special'? However, the accidents that have occured have bought my daughter into existence, who is extremely special to me - just like you are special to someone, etc etc. We do not require sky beings in order to be special - just other human beings.
not really becuse I believe that I was put here for a purpose. Because of heaven, there is no reason to fear death.
May I ask why you desiced to have a kid? What did you do when you were out of your parent's house, but not commited to another person?
Enigma,
If you are altruistic then go and help others in need, if you are an artist go and paint something, if you like to read then go read something, whatever, but there is no excuse to feel so depressed that suicide seems like a good idea. I am afraid that is beyond my comprehension.
Kat
Why the heck would you want to do that? Life is incredibly precious since we are only here for a few short decades, so why not make the most of it? Are you so lacking in imagination and creativity that you cannot devise something useful to do? The universe is vast and largely unexplored, so surely there is something in it that you can attach to as a genuine interest that makes your life feel worthwhile and enjoyable.
If you are altruistic then go and help others in need, if you are an artist go and paint something, if you like to read then go read something, whatever, but there is no excuse to feel so depressed that suicide seems like a good idea. I am afraid that is beyond my comprehension.
Ok, whatever turns you on. Many people have quite bizarre delusions and lead very happy lives.
Isn’t a need to feel special a sign of psychotic insecurity? And given the massive size of the universe compared to our insignificant presence I would see it extremely arrogant for us to ever consider that we could ever be special.
Kat
Special wasn't the right word. I just ment to say that it seems as though there is no point to life. The way I see it, you're born, you live you die, the world forgets about you, that is if it ever reconized you in the first place.
Enigma,
Let’s say the second coming arrives and judgment day and God sends his selected victims to hell and the rest go to a heavenly paradise for eternity. What then is your purpose? You will likely be one of billions, right? With eternity in front of you. Will you expect to ever be unhappy, miserable, depressed, in pain? I suspect not. So your real hope is that you will be happy, content, loved, in constant bliss, right?
That will be nice but what purpose would you have with this eternal life? Everything will be perfect and everything provided, there are no worries since you know that God is ever present and caring for everyone.
It seems to me that your life in heaven will be as purposeless as you think it is now on earth. Reaching heaven will not solve your problem of desiring a purpose.
But if your true purpose is simply to be happy then why not try to achieve that here on Earth?
Kat
And what is that purpose?
And if you reached heaven, then what? What purpose would you have then?
Let’s say the second coming arrives and judgment day and God sends his selected victims to hell and the rest go to a heavenly paradise for eternity. What then is your purpose? You will likely be one of billions, right? With eternity in front of you. Will you expect to ever be unhappy, miserable, depressed, in pain? I suspect not. So your real hope is that you will be happy, content, loved, in constant bliss, right?
That will be nice but what purpose would you have with this eternal life? Everything will be perfect and everything provided, there are no worries since you know that God is ever present and caring for everyone.
It seems to me that your life in heaven will be as purposeless as you think it is now on earth. Reaching heaven will not solve your problem of desiring a purpose.
But if your true purpose is simply to be happy then why not try to achieve that here on Earth?
Kat
Can I ask what reason you were put here for?
Well it's a whole bunch of things..
Firstly I woke up one day feeling a bit strange. After a brief time I noticed that I was going through puberty. My testicles dropped etc etc, and I found that when faced with a good looking woman, I'd get stiff. It wasn't a choice to get stiff, but seemingly a natural course of events that I could not control.
Then I found myself drawn to getting women naked and sticking this thing in them.
I then read the bible... specifically the part about that dude being slaughtered by god because he spilled his semen on the floor, so I had no choice but to let it go inside this woman. Then whattya know.. by some miracle she got rather fat and plopped out a child.
(Btw I'm actually just messing with you).
What I'm getting at, is that it's a natural course of events for pretty much every single animal on the planet. Sure, there are some that impregnate themselves, and in one instance, (the seahorse), it's actually the male that gives birth - but in general it is natural to every single animal.
I saw it recently with my dog. I take him to the park every day and he'll run around and play with other dogs, then the other day for no reason whatsoever, this pink thing popped out- he jumped on a female dog and started pumping.
Simply put, it is nature. It is not divine intervention or anything remotely mystical, but just nature.
We could say we're slightly more evolved than the majority of animals - and actually have sex because we enjoy it, as opposed to merely being to reproduce - but from the biblical texts we can see that god didn't want us any different to the animals - but wanted to keep the act of sex as merely the method of reproduction. So much so, that actual human emotions and feelings were not even taken into consideration. If my brother died, the very last thing on my mind would be to impregnate his widow, and I'm sure it would be the last thing on her mind aswell.. but that's what god demanded. From start to finish, it seems god wanted us to remain as simple animals.
Now I will admit that it was more than just that, and while it's a lengthy story- I shall try to minimize it.
I was adopted. Didn't have any idea who my parents were for the first 26 years of my life. It's weird, but I never knew what love was - as a side effect to that. I always swore to myself that I would have a child and show it the love I could not comprehend.
My wife is also adopted, so we're two of a kind pretty much.
We had a son but unfortunately he died.. So on top of needing to show extreme love, I now needed to show even more love because life really is that fragile.
Now we have a daughter, and not once in her life has she ever been shouted at, ever been reprimanded or treated like most parents treat their children these days. We do not "boss" her, but treat her with all the respect that any human can deserve.
Some people who have never experienced it from this point of view say that the child will be snobby, or selfish, or undisciplined but it is complete garbage. What we have 'created' is quite simple the most amazing and fantastic child there is. She is exceptionally polite, exceptionally loving to a degree of insanity. You know, I scratched my hand very slightly the other day, and she rushed over, took my hand- kissed it better and rubbed it. She is the same with everyone she knows, including our pets. She has also never, not once ever, been 'bad'. I know it's hard to comprehend or believe, but not once has she ever done or said anything that was rude or wrong.
All we ever did was show her love, nothing more- nothing less, and she has turned out to be the most supreme of children.
As I said on my last post, she would never have to ask for anything from us, but we would give it to her even if it killed us. Respect, love, worship, or sacrifice.. god could only wish it was like that for him.
Well for a lot of my younger teen years, I was a serious alcoholic. I had real issues, (because of being adopted), and the drink was a temporary solution to the questions I needed answers for. When I wasn't drinking, I was writing. Poems, stories, articles, etc. Writing is a real passion for me, it always has been ever since I could crawl.
Oh, so you're looking for evidence but not moving towards proving something....
Police look for evidence to prove a criminal guilty
Scientists test for evidence to prove a theory
We're looking for evidence to prove there is a God
"On the one hand you state that nothing can be proved yet here you are trying to state an absolute proof that nothing can be proved"
I agree, this is infact one of the oldest philosophical paradoxes there is. However, the fact that it is paradoxical to claim truth in the idea that there is no truth does not prove that everything you see and feel is really there.
So stop getting hung up in the language, and tell me why things you can observe with your senses merit any more faith than things that you can't. I don't want you to tell me again that my beliefs are fantasy, I don't want you to nitpick through what I've posted and find some loophole in each sentence, I want an answer to the idea, not the words.
I know you won't come up with one, and I know you won't change your opinions, but at least consider that there may be something out there beyond your comprehension
P.S.
Southstar- That was emphasis, not double negative
Police look for evidence to prove a criminal guilty
Scientists test for evidence to prove a theory
We're looking for evidence to prove there is a God
"On the one hand you state that nothing can be proved yet here you are trying to state an absolute proof that nothing can be proved"
I agree, this is infact one of the oldest philosophical paradoxes there is. However, the fact that it is paradoxical to claim truth in the idea that there is no truth does not prove that everything you see and feel is really there.
So stop getting hung up in the language, and tell me why things you can observe with your senses merit any more faith than things that you can't. I don't want you to tell me again that my beliefs are fantasy, I don't want you to nitpick through what I've posted and find some loophole in each sentence, I want an answer to the idea, not the words.
I know you won't come up with one, and I know you won't change your opinions, but at least consider that there may be something out there beyond your comprehension
P.S.
Southstar- That was emphasis, not double negative
DJ,
Kat
Things that you can detect indicate a high probability that they are real. If something proposed cannot be detected then there is no reason to conclude that it is real. Faith does not play any useful role in this.
I’m not really sure what you are asking. I’m certainly quite capable of imagining many things beyond my comprehension and I have no end of speculations about many futuristic and crazy scenarios. What I don’t do is suggest that any of these creative ideas represent truth. And that is the essential difference between my thinking and religionists.
Kat
Well, I guess that sums up our differing opinions.
To put it in a way that makes my opinion seem better (only because I believe it is
I have the ability to think and have faith in things that are beyond my comprehension, I can believe abstractly, whereas you are stuck inside the box, in order for you to believe something exists, it must be brought to you on a silver platter, plain to be seen.
I don't believe I can know everything there is to be known, there are things beyond my grasp.
You believe that everything that exists can be known and understood from a scientific point of view.
And didn't you read what I said about nitpicking at my words? There is much more crediblity to be gained from arguing ideas, not the way in which they are expressed
To put it in a way that makes my opinion seem better (only because I believe it is
I have the ability to think and have faith in things that are beyond my comprehension, I can believe abstractly, whereas you are stuck inside the box, in order for you to believe something exists, it must be brought to you on a silver platter, plain to be seen.
I don't believe I can know everything there is to be known, there are things beyond my grasp.
You believe that everything that exists can be known and understood from a scientific point of view.
And didn't you read what I said about nitpicking at my words? There is much more crediblity to be gained from arguing ideas, not the way in which they are expressed
I always find these kinds of arguments interesting.
How does that in anyway prove the existence of god? Or even suggest the existence of god or anything like that?
Your argument suggests you should be depressed, its doesn't give any validity to theism it just states that for you personally it would suck if there was no god.
What if things suck? Ever think of that?
We want to live, and fear death, because natural selection quickly removed organisms that didn't from the game. You are more likely to breed if you survive, and you are more likely to survive if you want to survive and don't want to die. So those attributes are favoured by natural selection, which is the reason why a common thread throughout the animal and plant kingdoms is they all want to survive.
Being conscious creatures we might need to come up with excuses for our survival instinct to convince ourselves life is logically worth living. For you and many others this manifests itself with religion. Thats an interesting aspect of reality but in no way lends credibility to the mythology of religions being litterally accurate explanations for existence. It explains why people think they are, and why they can't let common sense and logic get the better of them.
The reason its so hard to convince theists they are wrong, even though you destroy them with logic and evidence, even though it only takes a reasonable rational mind to see they are wrong, is because religion is litterally their life line. Its what keeps them going, I would suspect most theists who aren't clinically retarded would subconsciously know religious explanations aren't actually accurate in reality, but its not worth it to them to admit it to themselves. Religion gives them a much needed reason to live, losing that is losing everything. So in a way religious beliefs are the survival instinct in action. Its heavily imbedded into us to survive. We non-thiests have just found other ways to validate continuing to live, they haven't yet.
DJ,
Kat
Yes I did and I deliberately did not nitpick, but your ideas are embedded in your words and you infuse them with offensive innuendo and insults. If you make statements with which I disagree then I am going to isolate them and refute them, to do otherwise would make it appear that I am giving tacit agreement.
This is otherwise known as irrationality, i.e. assuming something is true without evidence.
And without evidence you will be wrong far more often than you are correct. I see no value in being wrong most of the time. Given the total set of near infinite human imaginative abstract ideas only a tiny fraction will map to a reality. The only meaningful way to select the real items is through evidence.
What box?
If someone makes a claim that they want me to believe then yes indeed they must present evidence as is standard practice in science. However, if there is something I believe might be real then I will go in search of appropriate evidence.
I agree.
You should stop trying to tell me what I believe since you really have no idea. I believe no such thing. But that doesn’t justify anyone making a claim for something they believe is true without evidence. If something is truly unknowable then it will always remain unknown. Claiming it to be truth is simply irrational and irresponsible.
Kat
They don't.. Because they can be observed, faith has little place. It's that which can't be observed in any way whatsoever that requires faith.
I wouldn't require faith to say theres a computer sitting in front of me, would I? Sure, it might not actually be a computer, but a purple ogre named dennis - but it is the latter, the unsupported and frankly quite ridiculous notions, that require faith, (also known as daydreaming/wishful thinking).
You could state that perhaps nothing is real, but then there's little point to really care about a god anyway. When you read a bible, you're not actually reading a bible -because it really isn't a bible, but a five footed football playing hippopotamus.
To quote Mark Twain:"Faith is believing what you know ain't so."