If there's a God Is there also a Devil?

[§outh§tar]

SouthStar,

Yes but you were still unable to produce an example of evidence. You made a bad choice and I wasn’t going to help you make that choice.

I have no idea what you are talking about but here goes:

John 8
43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

John 13
2The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus.

Considering out differences, I think this might very well apply to us:

2 Timothy 2
23Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

I must gently instruct you, for you oppose me.

The problem you would face in trying to show that a devil is responsible for so-called evil in the world is that psychology, genetics, environmental influences, indoctrination, and propaganda, etc., can also explain abnormal and deviant behaviors. All of which are credible and natural explanations. There is no reason to suppose there is or need be any supernatural influence.

Kat

I am sure you have heard:

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.

 

[invert_nexus]

Funny that the records are chinese and not an occidental source. Not many chinese christians. By the way, any links to these "confirmations"? Or did you take them on "faith"? There have also been various "confirmations" on the flood story. Unfortunately, it was far from universal and been disproven many times over the years.

 

[invert_nexus]

John 13
2The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus.

Yet, without this betrayal, Jesus would not have been sacrificed for your sins. Christianity would not have become the force that it is today. How can you blame Satan for an act that was cold-bloodedly planned by God? It's obvious that God planned the whole thing and merely attempts to shift the blame. Perhaps to see who's astute enough to observe the contradiction? This is similar to the serpent being blamed for the fall of man from the garden of eden. It was god's plan all along that this should occur. The serpent was a mere patsy. And wasn't even identified as Satan in this act.

Here's a question. Who is Satan? He's the interloper in Job. The serpent in eden. I'm thinking there was a verse describing him as the morning star, but my memory is vague on this. The old testament doesn't have much to say on Satan. I think he becomes a far more prominent character in the new testament. Please, shed some light on this Southstar.


Edit: In fact, Satan's interest lay in diverting Christ from his course, hence the temptations in the desert. If anything, Judas should have been tempted by Satan to not betray Christ.

Jesus looks at Judas when he says that he will be betrayed. So, who's the interloper in this affair?

 

[Katazia]

Enigma,

I take believe of it because of my faith in God, not because I have proof.

Yes I understand, but the thread starter was asking for proofs.

Kat

 

[Katazia]

Enigma,

The Bible mentions several days where God caused causes there to be "long days." day that lastet more than twenty four hours. These accounts have been confermed through chinease records. What else could explain this? I curious to know what you think.

Wouldn't it be more rational to simply doubt the accuracy and validity of the Chinese records than to create a highly imaginative complex supernatural realm as an answer instead?

Kat

 

[spidergoat]

Its the personification of entropy, and God is the personification of novelty and order. People personify everything, pets, cars, boats, its a xenocentric point of view.

 

[§outh§tar]

SouthStar,

And if you want to claim that people have spirits then try to explain what these spirits do that the brain can't, where they reside, and how they react with the physical world.

Why are you assigning physical properties to a spirit?

And of course any single or tiny scrap of credible evidence to indicate that a spirit could or does exist would be very helpful.

Kat

http://www.kingsingles.com/WhyChrist.htm

http://www.thechristadelphians.org/htm/bre/study/forum/forum_0053.htm

Read.

 

[Katazia]

SouthStar,

Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.

Or because what is said is nonsense.

But you have misquoted the text. A better translation is – “Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word”. RSV. The difference is subtle but important and critical. Not that I care much since it is only myth.

44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

OK, but what is your point? These are just extracts from Christian mythology and these quotes seem to have no bearing on proving whether a devil exists or not.

Considering out differences, I think this might very well apply to us:

2 Timothy 2
23Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.

Fortunately none of my arguments are foolish or stupid, so this doesn’t apply.

24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.

This is useful but you need to learn first before you are able to teach.

25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

That’s just wishful thinking when your arguments are devoid of reason and logic of course.

26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

This is a standard Christian excuse for not being able to formulate a more cohesive and logical agument.

I must gently instruct you, for you oppose me.

But is it likely to improve the quality of your attempts at logical thinking?

I am sure you have heard:

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.

Of course but consider this –

The greatest trick and evil that Christianity has pulled is to convince billions of people that the final end to life “death” is really a magical gateway to a perfect paradise.

What greater evil could the devil devise than to convince so many people that death is to be desired? Perhaps God and Satan do really exist but you have got their roles entirely reversed.

What better disguise could the devil have devised if he was really God’s equal than to masquerade as God and fool gullible people like yourself. Perhaps the real good God has been knocked unconscious somewhere and you are being gently and easily led to your slaughter. You might prefer to think of the devil as stupid and that he will be ultimately be defeated, but what if that is also part of his current plan to prevent you seeing his current subterfuge, and he really is God’s equal and just as powerful?

Food for thought.
Kat

 

[Katazia]

SouthStar,

Why are you assigning physical properties to a spirit?

Because you are physical and if a spirit can react with you then there must be a physical interaction which can be detected.

When you have absorbed this we can proceed to the more complex and paradoxical issues that show the impossibility of spirits.

Kat

 

[§outh§tar]

SouthStar,

Because you are physical and if a spirit can react with you then there must be a physical interaction which can be detected.

When you have absorbed this we can proceed to the more complex and paradoxical issues that show the impossibility of spirits.

Kat

For someone who doesn't believe in spirits, you sure do know a lot about what spirits can and can't do.

 

[§outh§tar]

SouthStar,

Or because what is said is nonsense.

Where are you quoting that from? I don't see it anywhere in this thread.

But you have misquoted the text. A better translation is – “Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word”. RSV. The difference is subtle but important and critical. Not that I care much since it is only myth.

Ok then, you don't care since it is myth but you know which translation is better.

OK, but what is your point? These are just extracts from Christian mythology and these quotes seem to have no bearing on proving whether a devil exists or not.

Boils down to the last quote I gave.

Fortunately none of my arguments are foolish or stupid, so this doesn’t apply.

I never said/implied that. If that is your conclusion from reading it then..

This is useful but you need to learn first before you are able to teach.

That’s just wishful thinking when your arguments are devoid of reason and logic of course.

This is a standard Christian excuse for not being able to formulate a more cohesive and logical agument.

But is it likely to improve the quality of your attempts at logical thinking?

What exactly are you trying to get at about the quote? That Satan is using all of this to fool people because he is actually equal to God? Ok...

The greatest trick and evil that Christianity has pulled is to convince billions of people that the final end to life “death” is really a magical gateway to a perfect paradise.

What greater evil could the devil devise than to convince so many people that death is to be desired? Perhaps God and Satan do really exist but you have got their roles entirely reversed.

You are starting to sound like MW..

What better disguise could the devil have devised if he was really God’s equal than to masquerade as God and fool gullible people like yourself. Perhaps the real good God has been knocked unconscious somewhere and you are being gently and easily led to your slaughter. You might prefer to think of the devil as stupid and that he will be ultimately be defeated, but what if that is also part of his current plan to prevent you seeing his current subterfuge, and he really is God’s equal and just as powerful?

Food for thought.
Kat

So God, who created us, is getting a "kick" out of fooling gullible people. An eternal God, who knows past, present and future has been somehow rendered unconscious? The devil is God's equal but he hasn't changed the fact that he got kicked out of heaven and is going to get beaten in the end and the miracles of Christ, His resurrection and ascension? All to get a kick out of fooling people?

Do you realize how your argument sounds? I wouldn't want to use the phrase "baseless rubbish".

The devil has knocked God "unconscious"... //Chuckles to self

 

[SnakeLord]

Actually, about a year ago, I had a great debate on this forum where I went in to my big analysis to show that jesus is actually the bad guy. I will try and remember all my points and present them to you for analysis.

A lot of it was about how jesus did everything that god didn't like. In the OT we see god showing his "dislike" of cripples/blind people and so on. He also states that he is the one who makes people blind etc. Then in the NT, jesus goes around touching these people that god said couldnt go near him, and curing blind people when god stated it was he who made them blind - whereas jesus and co claimed it was caused by the devil.

Anyway, I'll work on it once more and get back to you

 

[Turduckin]

SouthStar,

Because you are physical and if a spirit can react with you then there must be a physical interaction which can be detected.

When you have absorbed this we can proceed to the more complex and paradoxical issues that show the impossibility of spirits.

Kat

Limits:
The problem with one of the current 'theories of everthing' is that testing it requires an experiment which would use more energy than is contained in all the matter in the solar system - which means that for all practical purposes, it can't be tested. But if the theory predicts the behavior of perceived phenomena, then it's useful, right?. But is it scienctific? A theory that can't be tested - is it really a theory? But how can we KNOW its true? Faith? In Science? Faith in scepticism? I find that interesting...

And this theory postulates the existence of multiple dimensions which are beyond human perception and measurement. If the theory is correct, then at it's base is a requirement for the real, physical existence of spatial properties which cannot be tested for or measured. Hmmm! And if some phenomenon existed within these unobservable, unmeasurable domains, could we boldly say they don't exists? Perhaps for all practical purposes. But in truth, could we? There is no physical explanation or measurement that can detect the mediating force behind 'spooky action at a distance', but that doesn't stop quantum mechanics from being useful or valid. But by your argument, perhaps we should abandon QM?

Kat, You unmask your own irrationality by claiming that you can actually demonstrate the impossibility of something! There's a logical fallacy in that claim. Now, when you have absorbed this, we can proceed to the more complex and paradoxical issues of improbablilty vs impossibility, the limitation of self-referential statements in symbolic lanquages, Epistemology, Meaning, Knowing, the limitations inherent in axiomatic systems, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Really, Kat. How do you manage to be so sure of yourself? You sound like one of us demented xians.

 

[Katazia]

SouthStar,

From your first link -

What proof is there of God –

1) Natural Evidence. Nature itself is one big sign. Scientist believe that all life evolved over a long time, but they can't find any missing links to show how one form of life turned into another.

This is Argumentum ad ignorantiam. It argues that because we haven’t entirely explained how evolution occurred then God must have done it. This isn’t a proof for God merely imaginative speculation.

2) The Jewish Nation. The Jewish people are another great evidence of God. The whole Old Testament is a history and prophecy about them.

The trouble with prophecies that are made public is that there is a real danger that they can become self-fulfilled. For example the Jews are currently using these old alleged prophecies as justification that they can hold onto the lands around Israel and legitimately subjugate and evict the Palestinians. How can one tell the difference between a prophecy and a set of rules which are to be followed? But peoples being spread around the world could also apply to the Irish, the Vikings, and the Spanish. But proof that there is a God based on this? Had the alleged prophecies stated specific dates and times then maybe, but given a set of vague probabilities over a long enough period of time then it could apply to almost any culture on the planet.

3) Evidence of Spirits. There is evidence of spirits, good and bad if you look for it. Stories of paranormal phenomena, haunted houses, fortune tellers, séances to wake the dead, witchcraft, angelic visitors, spiritual healers, demon possession and exorcism. So if you look (even on the web) you will find a lot of evidence that spirits exist.

And none of these stories result in any proof that spirits exist only that there are some unexplained phenomena. This is Argumentum ad ignorantiam again.

4) Time and Date. The whole calendar system is based on years since Jesus Christ was on earth. The expression A.D. refers to the latin expression Anno Domino which means, the year of our Lord (the Lord must have been there). Before that years are recorded as B.C. (Before Christ). Something significant must have happened back then because almost the whole earth uses that dating system, counting backwards and forward from the time of Christ.

This a proof for the existence of God? This is a joke. The origin of AD and BC refers to Caesar. BC (Before Caesar) and AD (ANNO DOMINI) is the Roman expression for: The year of the dominium of the Lord. This is to say that the "Lord" as a title was given to the highest office of the Roman Empire. At that time this was Julius Caesar and it related to any year he was in office.

The Christians simply stole the notation when it became the official religion of Rome and at that time Rome was the dominant world influence. The world population was also only 150 million and as that grew then obviously the date simply went with it. But Jews still have a Jewish calendar where the year 2000CE is 5760, to Arabs that year would be 1420, and for the Chinese that year would be 4698, none of which have anything to do with a mythological Christ.

5) Faith. Now all the above is logical and circumstantial evidence of a God, but that is all. This is because men are saved by faith in Jesus and not because it has been proved to them.

But faith simply means believing something is true without proof. There is nothing magical about holding such an irrational position. But this also emphasizes that there is no proof for god since faith would never be needed if proof were available. Christians can only use faith and are forced to emphasize faith since there is no proof for their god.

Kat

 

[§outh§tar]

I was only referring to the part about spirits since that is what we were discussing.
It is one of the possibilities I found and I was only sharing.


I am very very sorry (truly I am), I ignored the rest of it and failed to read it all.

Truly sorry.

 

[Katazia]

Turduckin,

Really, Kat. How do you manage to be so sure of yourself? You sound like one of us demented xians.

Holy cow I must be more careful what I say then.

But all of what you say still comes down to "we don't know". So all you have to support the concept of a spirit is an imaginative speculative fantasy.

But as far as SouthStar and his currently simplistic and conventional view of spirits are concerned we have the paradox of something immaterial having to interact with something material. How does that occur?

But you can become as complex as you wish and introduce multiple dimensions etc, but all of that is unnecessarily complex and only needed to try to satisfy another fantasy that there is an afterlife.

At this time there is no reason to assume that the brain cannot account for all emotions, memories and mental activities. What then is the role of a spirit apart from satisfying a basless fantasy?

Kat

 

[Katazia]

SouthStar,

So God, who created us, is getting a "kick" out of fooling gullible people. An eternal God, who knows past, present and future has been somehow rendered unconscious? The devil is God's equal but he hasn't changed the fact that he got kicked out of heaven and is going to get beaten in the end and the miracles of Christ, His resurrection and ascension? All to get a kick out of fooling people?

Hmm, you seem to have a problem seeing alternative perspectives, other people’s points of view, and understanding hypothetical scenarios. I apologize if I lost you since you do not appear to have grasped the point again.

Kat

 

[Enigma'07]

But as far as SouthStar and his currently simplistic and conventional view of spirits are concerned we have the paradox of something immaterial having to interact with something material. How does that occur?

Simple. It is something supernatural that we cannot explain. Which just proves that humans don't know everything.

 

[§outh§tar]

SouthStar,

Hmm, you seem to have a problem seeing alternative perspectives, other people’s points of view, and understanding hypothetical scenarios. I apologize if I lost you since you do not appear to have grasped the point again.

Kat

Again, this is coming from someone who refuses to see the truth of Christianity? Telling me what I am incapable of?

 

[Katazia]

SouthStar,

I was only referring to the part about spirits since that is what we were discussing.
It is one of the possibilities I found and I was only sharing.

I am very very sorry (truly I am), I ignored the rest of it and failed to read it all.

Truly sorry.

Are you addressing me? I’m not quite sure where/what your apology is targeted.

But whatever, no problem.

Confused!!
Kat