If there were a just God

M

Michael

歌舞伎
Valued Senior Member
Then there is no way it would create a world knowing children would be raped, murdered, enslaved. Not to mention all the other horrid stuff. It just wouldn't do that. It would not make a world where humans must murder to survive. Murder plants, animals, fungus, etc... to derive energy. Not when it could make a universe where energy is not needed.

well we know you exist and if we suppose the God exists then...

you must be the only "real" being other than the God. Everyone, Everything, All of it, is an illusion just for you. Therefor nothing is eaten, nothing is murdered, nothing is harmed - well, other than you. And it's It doing it to you.

For whatever purposes we do not know. We being part of illusion and all.
Maybe its a chance to see if It wants to live with you for a while?
Who knows?
 
Michael said:
Then there is no way it would create a world knowing children would be raped, murdered, enslaved. Not to mention all the other horrid stuff. It just wouldn't do that. It would not make a world where humans must murder to survive. Murder plants, animals, fungus, etc... to derive energy. Not when it could make a universe where energy is not needed.
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You are oversimplifying the model. You cannot prove that god (which is unprovable) is unjust because people are allowed to be violent. There are variables that tossed out of your equation, and there are more than one models because god can be anything or nothing.

In my opinion, if there was the Christian God for example, it might make sense that God is just for allowing people the choice to "take the apple and disobey." It may have known that people were bad, but still for whatever reason wanted the chance that some would be good so it could hang out with them. So, it rolled the dice and has terrible luck. I know this only might be true in the absence of all the other stuff supposedly done by God and is asked of by God.

But, my point is, the model that there is a god is too undefined to say what the hell is going on. If god exists, we have no clue other than what we see, and we see evil things being allowed and a silent god. For what its worth, there is nothing that says that a god HAS to be just. Sure would like to know whether we need to fight it though (if it were real).

Michael said:
well we know you exist and if we suppose the God exists then...

you must be the only "real" being other than the God. Everyone, Everything, All of it, is an illusion just for you. Therefor nothing is eaten, nothing is murdered, nothing is harmed - well, other than you. And it's It doing it to you.

For whatever purposes we do not know. We being part of illusion and all.
Maybe its a chance to see if It wants to live with you for a while?
Who knows?
Click to expand...
Yah, this might be the case. This isn't much different than Earth being a proving ground and is in fact real. We only know what's real by perception sort of thing.
 
What about things like natural disasters? If God could prevent it and doesn't, he's evil.
 
spidergoat said:
What about things like natural disasters? If God could prevent it and doesn't, he's evil.
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Maybe, but I don't think that is necessarily true. We're in the realm of fantasy with God, so anything is possible. What if God allows natural disasters to allow other people the opportunity to do good and help victims? Who says the victims are innocent and do not need/deserve the hardship or death? What if God is just selfish and like people to draw nearer to him, and makes these things to increase church attendance? The whole thing does sound like God is just really lonely and will do anything to get some attention.

What if God is just bored, and knowing that a soul is eternal, there is nothing to killing the innocent or guilty? The ones who are ready get an early pass, the ones who were guilty, the world is better off?

Too many unknowns about an unknown topic to pass judgement.
 
You could always speculate, but the logical conclusion is that he is either unable to indifferent to prevent natural disasters. Certainly the children and babies could not be said to be guilty of anything. Many of these people were probably churchgoers and devout to begin with. If he kills them to allow a few people to act brave, he is perverted and sick.

When believers say God is to undefined to assign blame, then he is certainly to undefined to assign love and worship.
 
spidergoat said:
You could always speculate, but the logical conclusion is that he is either unable to indifferent to prevent natural disasters. Certainly the children and babies could not be said to be guilty of anything. Many of these people were probably churchgoers and devout to begin with. If he kills them to allow a few people to act brave, he is perverted and sick.
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Maybe God doesn't view death the way you and I do. Maybe death is something to be welcomed. I've heard Christians say that they don't belong here (on the Earth). In the context of mortal beings, that is a sick way to look at things. With an immortal? Maybe not. Christians should always be trying to be ready to die today (or at least according to their scripture).

Think of it this way: those children and babies don't have to go through the shit of the world. It's like being born into paradise, completely untouched and pure.

I for one still couldn't stomach something like this without answers. If God were real, I'd need answers lest I get weary of seeing needless death and rebel. If I saw my brothers and sisters being killed one-by-one, there was a god, and it was silent with no answers. Eventually, I'd have no choice but to reject it because that gives the appearance of someone who is my enemy. That is the humanity in me.

I'm just saying, it's too early to make any conclusions.

However, I think I get where you guys are at.

Everyone, if you believe in god, you had better ask yourself how long will you endure your friend allowing suffering without giving so much as an explanation. Some friend you have!

If there were a just God, then it would care enough to say, "Hello. I'm here, Trust me, it will work out." It really needs to come forward. If it doesn't, then you gotta ask yourselves how long will you assume that the God you think is just IS just, or IS benevolent.
 
it seems to me that god does not want us to do what's right out of ignorance, but to do what's right voluntarily because of knowledge that we receive through experience. now we know good and evil as god does, and i think that we get what we want or choose. i for one, want to do good all the time, and i think that what i want matters. my thought and my desire will manifest into my destiny. it always seems strange to me, that people who live in the same world that i do, don't see what i do, and want to do what is wrong.

in regards to natural disasters...remember noah?
 
So, only the people of American Samoa were evil? If I sent a tsunami accross a major inhabited island, no one would hesitate to call me evil. I'm surprised no one suggests the devil did it.
 
spidergoat said:
So, only the people of American Samoa were evil? If I sent a tsunami accross a major inhabited island, no one would hesitate to call me evil. I'm surprised no one suggests the devil did it.
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no, no, no, i just mean that when communion is restored, we will instinctively avoid such danger. kind of like animals do now. like some kind of sixth sense.
 
spidergoat said:
And if I had wings I could fly.
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yes, that's a good point. like birds know to fly south for the winter, and they flock. i think we'll be connected like flocks and herds and hives...won't that be great?!?! :)
 
A mental exercise:

When the weather cooperates, harvest is good, and life is happy:
Theist: God is awesome!
Atheist: Nuh-uh.

When a tsunami hits, or a hurricane, or a volcano, or whatnot:
Atheist: God's a bastard!
Theist: Nuh-uh.
 
This discussion ofcourse is completely speculative and philosophical.

So I will try to present a philosophical hypothesis that might be able to address this question.

So.....
Perhaps there is relative Justice, and relative Evil.

I guess this is similar to when is "killing" actually allowed by our (human) standards. Are soldiers really "heroes" or "murderers"?

Were Americans who fought the revolutionary war, Patriots or terrorists?

Just trying to say that "evil" and "justice" is relative, and it depends upon the perspective.

Now let us extend this to the "world".

Lets assume that we occupy a "physical world", but God occupies everything there is! Supposing there is metaphysical world and also possibly a world without time (as some religions believe).

So God occupies a world (which includes ours) much bigger than what we occupy. Evil or Justice is simply a action/response to an event relative to our perception. But generally speaking it is simply the "change" in this world which then we translate to "evil" or "just" (or neutral) relatively.

Now if God encompasses everything there is no relativeness and actually there is no change either (since God encompasses EVERYTHING!) because what are you relating something to when that something actually encompasses everything? So God can neither be Just nor Evil.....

So there is no "relativity" when you talk about God's world. But in "our" world, Humans do have relativity and thus perceive "justice" and "evil". As the only thing we encompass is actually ourselves- what we believe "evil" and "justice" is in relation to others who encompass the rest of the world.

Now the question becomes if God can neither be Just or Evil why do religions claim God is "Just". One explanation could be that God has "chosen" to make his own justice in which he is absolutely Just as there is no "relativity" in his world so there is no "other justice" except His. You should just be happy that He chose to be "just" in some aspects as you expect. So God is Just for US but in his own world he is neither Just or Evil although he has created his own Justice in which he is Absolutely Just.

Then the question is why God tells us to do "good" and stop doing "evil" when he Himself is not Just or Evil. He has chosen a standard that you should apply to. In other words he is telling you what is good and bad in "your world", which doesn't have to apply to Himself because he encompasses everything in the first place. You would have to assume that the standard that God has chosen for Humans to live by is the best because he has the added quality (by most religions) as being the All-Knowing, in other words since he has all the knowledge he can best devise a standard for you (even better than you, yourself). Now the fact that he is Absolutely Just (in his own justice) then you have to assume that the standard he creates for you are also Just (again his Justice doesn't have to be the same as yours). So this way not only is he Just, his standards are the best for humans (even if one thinks otherwise).

Anyways I just thought up of this while writing this so there are probably some inconsistencies in this hypothesis. Anyways its not like I'm going to answer the question to which really there is no answer :D

Good luck to the rest of you who try

Peace be unto you ;)
 
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786 said:
This discussion ofcourse is completely speculative and philosophical.

So I will try to present a philosophical hypothesis that might be able to address this question.

So.....
Perhaps there is relative Justice, and relative Evil.

I guess this is similar to when is "killing" actually allowed by our (human) standards. Are soldiers really "heroes" or "murderers"?

Were Americans who fought the revolutionary war, Patriots or terrorists?

Just trying to say that "evil" and "justice" is relative, and it depends upon the perspective.

Now let us extend this to the "world".

Lets assume that we occupy a "physical world", but God occupies everything there is! Supposing there is metaphysical world and also possibly a world without time (as some religions believe).

So God occupies a world (which includes ours) much bigger than what we occupy. Evil or Justice is simply a action/response to an event relative to our perception. But generally speaking it is simply the "change" in this world which then we translate to "evil" or "just" (or neutral) relatively.

Now if God encompasses everything there is no relativeness and actually there is no change either (since God encompasses EVERYTHING!) because what are you relating something to when that something actually encompasses everything? So God can neither be Just nor Evil.....

So there is no "relativity" when you talk about God's world. But in "our" world, Humans do have relativity and thus perceive "justice" and "evil". As the only thing we encompass is actually ourselves- what we believe "evil" and "justice" is in relation to others who encompass the rest of the world.

Now the question becomes if God can neither be Just or Evil why do religions claim God is "Just". One explanation could be that God has "chosen" to make his own justice in which he is absolutely Just as there is no "relativity" in his world so there is no "other justice" except His. You should just be happy that He chose to be "just" in some aspects as you expect. So God is Just for US but in his own world he is neither Just or Evil although he has created in own Justice in which he is Absolutely Just.

Then the question is why God tells us to do "good" and stop doing "evil" when he Himself is not Just or Evil. He has chosen a standard that you should apply to. In other words he is telling you what is good and bad in "your world", which doesn't have to apply to Himself because he encompasses everything in the first place. You would have to assume that the standard that God has chosen for Humans to live by is the best because he has the added quality (by most religions) as being the All-Knowing, in other words since he has all the knowledge he can best devise a standard for you (even better than you, yourself). Now the fact that he is Absolutely Just (in his own justice) then you have to assume that the standard he creates for you are also Just (again his Justice doesn't have to be the same as yours). So this way not only is he Just, his standards are the best for humans (even if one thinks otherwise).

Anyways I just thought up of this while writing this so there are probably some inconsistencies in this hypothesis. Anyways its not like I'm going to answer the question to which really there is no answer :D

Good luck to the rest of you who try

Peace be unto you ;)
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Wow, you're smart. *blink blink*

One of the things that I think god is is law. So god determines the reaction to every action. I wonder how many would desire the reaction to, for example, a child being molested to be good or positive. That mentality, which indeed child molesters posses, is a denial of god, and therefore a lie.
 
If God determines the reaction for every action, then he is not moral, and not worthy of worship. Child molestors go free, and innocent people are jailed or tortured sometimes. But this is consistent with their being an indifferent God or no God.
 
786 said:
This discussion ofcourse is completely speculative and philosophical.

So I will try to present a philosophical hypothesis that might be able to address this question.

Lets assume that we occupy a "physical world", but God occupies everything there is! Supposing there is metaphysical world and also possibly a world without time (as some religions believe).
Click to expand...

Usually, when one speculates, they make assumptions based on reason and rationale. By injecting the assumption of a "metaphysical world or world without time" one no longer speculates, they have now moved beyond that to fantasizing. Of course, your argument can go no further than this as fantasizing takes anything and everything into consideration as valid.
 
spidergoat said:
If God determines the reaction for every action, then he is not moral, and not worthy of worship. Child molestors go free, and innocent people are jailed or tortured sometimes. But this is consistent with their being an indifferent God or no God.
Click to expand...

I think this conclusion is also short-sighted especially regarding religions who have some sort of "Judgement Day". So everyone will be tried for all crimes so in this regards you are only looking at the judgment made by courts here not the "court of God" (as some call it)

Peace be unto you ;)
 
(Q) said:
Usually, when one speculates, they make assumptions based on reason and rationale. By injecting the assumption of a "metaphysical world or world without time" one no longer speculates, they have now moved beyond that to fantasizing. Of course, your argument can go no further than this as fantasizing takes anything and everything into consideration as valid.
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You are forgetting that the questioner (and this thread) assumed that God exists, and that is why you must also assume of a metaphysical world and a world without time as most popular religions would claim. So I have not "fantasized" outside of the realm of the question to begin with.

So assuming God exists and what we are told about God (such as Him being Just) then I think my answer would still be regarded as "speculative" by your own definition. (If I understood it correctly )

Peace be unto you ;)
 
786 said:
I think this conclusion is also short-sighted especially regarding religions who have some sort of "Judgement Day". So everyone will be tried for all crimes so in this regards you are only looking at the judgment made by courts here not the "court of God" (as some call it)

Peace be unto you ;)
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Not much of a consolation for suffering here and now.
 
spidergoat said:
Not much of a consolation for suffering here and now.
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Lol can't argue with that, although perhaps a reward (Paradise) on the other hand may serve as a consolation but again "not here and now". In some ways its like how we do things too. People don't "immediately" go to jail, they go through a process so people who lost their loved ones don't really get "consolation" "immediately".

But again, there is no arguing your point as its definitely true.

Peace be unto you ;)
 
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