If Jesus (God) is real why do you need faith?

If you read the Bible...

I have on occation but what deos that have to do with anything?

Its no authority. About as useful as reading the odessy without the coherence.

The bible is just a collection of myths and historical fiction. Like the ones from every other society of the time.


I think we have had this debate before swarm...

"Happiness"

"it’s tough to tell whether it’sthe God part or the community aspect that does the heavy lifting. Friends? A giant yes."

Religion coming in 7th in things credited as major sources of happiness. Also, being credited doesn't mean that it actually is what is the cause.

I find this sort of study more persuasive than a survey: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3047291.stm

A little tidbit...
HOW THE NATIONS RANKED ON HAPPINESS
1st - Denmark
2nd - Switzerland
3rd - Austria
4th - Iceland
5th - The Bahamas
23rd - USA
41st - UK
90th - Japan
178th - Burundi
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5224306.stm

I admire much in Buddhism - all paths up the same mountain.

Except we aren't going up the theist mountain.

Atheist regimes do not have a proud history either. Pol Pot, Soviet Union gulags, Mao's persecutions...

"Communism" is no more atheism than it is socialism. It sees itself as a replacement for religion, not the abandonment of it and really those weren't even communism but actually just strong man dictatorships using the communist lable. Post Mao China is sort of moving into actual communism where the politburo has some actual teeth, but their proletariate still have less power than even the bourgeoisie.

Atheism has never been cohesive enough to become anything more that a look of surprise that adults still believe in magic sky fairies.
 
Just a short question to believers.

"-Your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convinient at the time. This will not suffice. Remember that."

From a movie, pretty self explanatory.
 
I have on occation but what deos that have to do with anything? Its no authority. About as useful as reading the odessy without the coherence. The bible is just a collection of myths and historical fiction. Like the ones from every other society of the time.
The Bible (and other sacred texts) is accumulated wisdom from the last 5000 years. We may know more e.g. in science, but we haven't got much further in terms of finding the good life. Many people are still miserable and many think happiness is all about money.

swarm said:
"it’s tough to tell whether it’sthe God part or the community aspect that does the heavy lifting. Friends? A giant yes."

Religion coming in 7th in things credited as major sources of happiness. Also, being credited doesn't mean that it actually is what is the cause.
Do you have any reason to disbelieve what people report about their sources of happiness? It is consistent with other research e.g. by people like Harold Koenig, Ed Deiner and David Myers (talking about their work on Radio Australia). I quote:

For example, surveys by George Gallup have found that what he calls 'highly spiritually committed people' - people who say their faith is very important to them, who pray regularly and so forth - are twice as likely to say they're very happy as people at the low end of his spiritual commitment index. And then there are other studies that associate religious faith with people's ability to cope with a tragedy like a disability, or the death of a loved one, or even the loss of a job, that find that people of strong faith seem to cope better and to recover a sense of wellbeing sooner than people who are irreligious.

..These countries where people are relatively satisfied and happy with their lives, tend curiously to be countries that have enjoyed a long history of stable democracy throughout this century. [...] But again, there are so many things that differentiate countries - their wealth, their democracy, the extent to which they're individualistic, and their values, the extent to which religion is strong in the culture. I mean these things all inter-mix, and so it's hard to disentangle them, to know what's accounting for say, the greater happiness of the Dutch as opposed to the Portuguese.

swarm said:
I find this sort of study more persuasive than a survey: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3047291.stm
I'd agree! Buddhism is not in competition. The mystical religions have very similar core values and practices, packaged differently. They are all spiritual paths - its just they evolved in different cultures.

swarm said:
Except we aren't going up the theist mountain.
Theist or non-theist religions are only different ways achieving a similar goal. Both address the problem we have as finite embodied suffering individuals. Both aim at letting go of our grasping natures to find a greater awareness and liberation. In the East they achieve the state of Nirvana through emptiness and meditation, in the West we enter "The Kingdom of Heaven" through contemplation and devotion. It is much the same goal. Then again, the Pure-land school of Buddhism pray to the Buddha of Compassion, while Quakers and Trappists practice silence.

All these spiritual paths aim at shifting our focus away from our own finite suffering egos, to achieve greater awareness, and greater compassion, love, joy etc.

"Communism" is no more atheism than it is socialism. It sees itself as a replacement for religion, not the abandonment of it and really those weren't even communism but actually just strong man dictatorships using the communist lable. Post Mao China is sort of moving into actual communism where the politburo has some actual teeth, but their proletariate still have less power than even the bourgeoisie.
All modernist ideologies (including Marxism) are based on the idea that we can make a better world through rational ideology, and get rid of all "irrational stuff" like religion. It is exactly the message Dawkins and others preach today - they are 'modernists' in a post modern world.

Atheism has never been cohesive enough to become anything more that a look of surprise that adults still believe in magic sky fairies.
Re-ligion literally means 'to re-connect'. Atheism has always been associated with atomism (e.g. the Epicureans). I think that is a problem for atheism and is one reason why I choose theism - it's about reconnecting to the Whole (not about sky-fairies). However, some religions are truely bonkers, and some people believe some very strange ideas. I do wish more atheists would study theology though.
 
Last edited:
The Bible (and other sacred texts) is accumulated wisdom from the last 5000 years.

Some of it. It is also Jewish and Xtian propaganda, myths, folktales, just so stories, plain old fiction, poetry, legal codes, flaky genealogy and a pretty healthy dose of plain old crapola.

I've noticed most believers have great difficulty seeing it for what it is because they can't admit god didn't personally write it.

We may know more e.g. in science, but we haven't got much further in terms of finding the good life.

Actually we have come a long way. Things today are significantly better for many more people than at the time. Sure its not perfect but measurable better.

Do you have any reason to disbelieve what people report about their sources of happiness?

Definitely. Religious people are noted for giving "god" credit for anything they like and the other guy credit for all they dislike.

The mystical religions have very similar core values and practices, packaged differently.

Only if you consider them in a very superficial manner. The deeper you go, the more separation you find.

They are all spiritual paths - its just they evolved in different cultures.

"Spiritual path" is being used ambiguously here. There is a great diversity you are over looking here.

Theist or non-theist religions are only different ways achieving a similar goal.

I'm not convinced the goal of Kali is the goal of JHVH is the goal of the pagan is the goal of the Confucianist is the goal of the Buddhist is the goal of the humanist. Sure they are all human endeavors and at some degree they are concerned with human needs which tend to be very similar. But the parts which make them distinct are just that, distinct.

Just like all food is not just the same path to alleviating hunger.

In the East they achieve the state of Nirvana through emptiness and meditation, in the West we enter "The Kingdom of Heaven" through contemplation and devotion. It is much the same goal.

The majority on both sides seem to disagree with you about this. Thomas Merton being a notable exception who had trouble with his church over it. Eventually god just electrocuted him to shut him up. ;)

Then again, the Pure-land school of Buddhism pray to the Buddha of Compassion, while Quakers and Trappists practice silence.

There is ever so polite and quiet debate about whether pureland and Nichiren are really still Buddhism. Meditation can have the effect of being silent, but just being silent isn't necessarily meditation.

All these spiritual paths aim at shifting our focus away from our own finite suffering egos, to achieve greater awareness, and greater compassion, love, joy etc.

Correctly done Buddhist meditation doesn't have a purpose, even the purpose of meditation, and it isn't done for any particular result, even enlightenment. I know that sounds weird but you'll have to trust me on this one unless you want to dig through some really boring sutras/teaching histories.

Now people often start meditating for those and other reasons and it seems to often have felicitous side effects, but part of the process is letting go of all that.

All modernist ideologies (including Marxism) are based on the idea that we can make a better world through rational ideology

Ever heard of Dada?

Re-ligion literally means 'to re-connect'.

And Thurs-day means Thor's day.

one reason why I choose theism - it's about reconnecting to the Whole (not about sky-fairies).

Then why make with the sky faeries? Something inherently separate.

Here is an insight I got for my communing with the whole days. There is no whole or even with. No experience. No all. All of that stuff is explicitly dualistic. Frankly the whole is boring. :p

I do wish more atheists would study theology though.

You do know that a large number of atheist became atheists because they studied theology in great detail? Ex priests, ministers, monks, etc.
 
HOW THE NATIONS RANKED ON HAPPINESS
1st - Denmark
2nd - Switzerland
3rd - Austria
4th - Iceland
5th - The Bahamas
23rd - USA
41st - UK
90th - Japan
178th - Burundi
Of course many factors play a role in "Happiness" but I wonder how certain beliefs act to physically affect the areas of the brain that create the precept "Happy"? Maybe reducing their ability to create happiness. The reason why this seems like a worthwhile question to pose is because certain ways of using the brain, such as meditation, can and do affect these areas. Such as the hippocampus.

Could seriously worrying, I mean really really worrying, about what God thinks about one's actions and about spending eternity in Hell actually act to decrease hippocampal volume and reduce happiness. What implications could this have on society?


all food is not just the same path to alleviating hunger

A new quote?
 
Last edited:
The person who created this post asked "believers." All I see on this post is a bunch of dudes jerking each other off in a circle.
 
Just a short question to believers.

Good question--if God appeared suddenly, and thus proved that s/he existed, would anyone need to rely on faith? Surely the idea of 'faith' presupposes that something can't be proved, so that you have to believe without proof. If God put in an appearance, would that mean that all the major world religions would shrivel away in the light of the proven existence of the divine presence?
 
God demands people to have faith without evidence so that She can determine who is NOT going to spend eternity with Her. There is no way she wants to waste eternity with a bunch of drooling idiots. Only those that had sense enough to not have faith in Her will be worth talking to in the hereafter and therefor granted eternal existence as an EQUAL Companion....
 
God demands people to have faith without evidence so that She can determine who is NOT going to spend eternity with Her. There is no way she wants to waste eternity with a bunch of drooling idiots. Only those that had sense enough to not have faith in Her will be worth talking to in the hereafter and therefor granted eternal existence as an EQUAL Companion....

Say it brother!
 
Back
Top