If Jesus (God) is real why do you need faith?

[lightgigantic]

Just a short question to believers.

any knowable claim requires the platform of faith to begin

For instance, even a kids lab set requires faith in the instruction manual. (or alternatively it one trashes the manual, the faith that it is indeed a lab set)

If one didn't have that faith, it wouldn't render much of anything knowable.

 

[swarm]

any knowable claim requires the platform of faith to begin

There is nothing quite as satisfying as seeing such ignorance so plainly made manifest.

For instance, even a kids lab set requires faith in the instruction manual.

Nope.

 

[swarm]

Faith, grace, and blessings are not something we can aquire. These things can only be given by God.

So you think god is capricious then.

 

[swarm]

[People raise from the dead] all the time.

No. People occasionally can be revived from close to the point of death. Medical professionals occasionally makes mistakes about if a person is actually dead or not.

But no one is ever revived from being actually dead.

Once past rigor mortis and decomposition has begun, there is no coming back.

 

[swarm]

i had an NDE myself...

Near death is not dead.

 

[Photizo]

...Once past rigor mortis and decomposition has begun, there is no coming back.

There is nothing quite as satisfying as seeing such ignorance so plainly made manifest.

...

 

[Adstar]

Christians have the habit of Skewing the meaning of words. The dictionary is the standard for defining words not the bible.

No society does the Skewing and the dictionary changes definitions depending on what is the current fashion. It is one way the powers that be can attack the scriptures. Change the meaning of words over time to make the Word of God confusing.

I wonder how long it will be before the dictionary changes the definition of the word wicked.

Remember when it mean’t very bad and evil? Now it’s popular meaning is cool / awesome / great.

Tolerance used to mean putting up with something you did not like.

Now tolerance popular meaning is acceptance.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[dixonmassey]

any knowable claim requires the platform of faith to begin

For instance, even a kids lab set requires faith in the instruction manual. (or alternatively it one trashes the manual, the faith that it is indeed a lab set)

If one didn't have that faith, it wouldn't render much of anything knowable.

Not true. Manual can be used on spot to test initial "faith". Bible can be tested too but to the same extent one could test Tibetan Fair tales. For an unconditioned mind Bible appears to be absurd, wicked (looking down from this time) and full of contradictions. However, I cannot prove that fire breezing dragons don't reside above Polar circle (despite all the absurdity of the suggestions), equally I can't prove that mythical heroes of the Tibetan fair tales ever existed, equally I can't prove that Bible' 90% are lied hundreds times over myths and superstitions. Even the verses which absurdity can be seen with the naked eye could be saved by the phrase "back in those times things were different", different to the point of absurd, I may add.

Bible unverifiable to a large extent since there is always possibility (in faithful' mind) that things were different back then. Once a person want to believe, he/she would find a straw to justify that belief.

 

[swarm]

...

Aw, was wour wittle faith doubted?

 

[earth]

I wonder how long it will be before the dictionary changes the definition of the word wicked.

Remember when it mean’t very bad and evil? Now it’s popular meaning is cool / awesome / great.

You managed to use the slang term for wicked and ignored the dictionary definition except for your own religious personal agenda in attempting to make a point.
The word wicked isn't going to be changed to fit your opinion. The slang term for wicked was added and nothing more will be done with it. The meaning of a word doesn't get changed in the dictionary the way you implied.
Use a dictionary please instead of the bible when defining the meaning of words.

1. evil or morally bad in principle or practice; sinful; iniquitous: wicked people; wicked habits.
2. mischievous or playfully malicious: These wicked kittens upset everything.
3. distressingly severe, as a storm, wound, or cold: a wicked winter
4. unjustifiable; dreadful; beastly: wicked prices; a wicked exam.
5. having a bad disposition; ill-natured; mean: a wicked horse
6. spiteful; malevolent; vicious: a wicked tongue.
7. extremely troublesome or dangerous: wicked roads.
8. unpleasant; foul: a wicked odor.
9. Slang. wonderful; great; masterful; deeply satisfying: He blows a wicked trumpet.
http://dictionary.reference.com/

Originally Posted by Adstar
Tolerance used to mean putting up with something you did not like.

Now tolerance popular meaning is acceptance.

You did the same thing with tolerance. Dictionaries aren't going to omit the meaning of words just to suit you. Allowance was added to the definition of tolerance just like the slang term for wicked. Notice your definition for both words are at the end of their lists not at the top. Christians skew the meanings of words taking them out of context instead of applying the intent that was meant within the phrase written.

Tolerance
1. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.
2. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward opinions and practices that differ from one's own.
3. interest in and concern for ideas, opinions, practices, etc., foreign to one's own; a liberal, undogmatic viewpoint.
4. the act or capacity of enduring; endurance: My tolerance of noise is limited.
5. Medicine/Medical, Immunology. a. the power of enduring or resisting the action of a drug, poison, etc.: a tolerance to antibiotics.
b. the lack of or low levels of immune response to transplanted tissue or other foreign substance that is normally immunogenic.
6. Machinery. a. the permissible range of variation in a dimension of an object. Compare allowance (def. 8).
b. the permissible variation of an object or objects in some characteristic such as hardness, weight, or quantity.
7. Also called allowance. Coining. a permissible deviation in the fineness and weight of coin, owing to the difficulty of securing exact conformity to the standard prescribed by law.

 

[Photizo]

Aw, was wour wittle faith doubted?

My "mustard seed" sized faith brings knowledge, and can move mountains.

Conversely... your abysmal ignorance?...Powerless to do anything but consign you to eternal 'darkness'.

 

[Adstar]

You managed to use the slang term for wicked and ignored the dictionary definition except for your own religious personal agenda in attempting to make a point.
The word wicked isn't going to be changed to fit your opinion. The slang term for wicked was added and nothing more will be done with it. The meaning of a word doesn't get changed in the dictionary the way you implied.
Use a dictionary please instead of the bible when defining the meaning of words.

1. evil or morally bad in principle or practice; sinful; iniquitous: wicked people; wicked habits.
2. mischievous or playfully malicious: These wicked kittens upset everything.
3. distressingly severe, as a storm, wound, or cold: a wicked winter
4. unjustifiable; dreadful; beastly: wicked prices; a wicked exam.
5. having a bad disposition; ill-natured; mean: a wicked horse
6. spiteful; malevolent; vicious: a wicked tongue.
7. extremely troublesome or dangerous: wicked roads.
8. unpleasant; foul: a wicked odor.
9. Slang. wonderful; great; masterful; deeply satisfying: He blows a wicked trumpet.
http://dictionary.reference.com/

see your quoting of a dictonary confirms me to be right:

""9. Slang. wonderful; great; masterful; deeply satisfying: He blows a wicked trumpet. ""

When was that added to the dictonary? recently?
Why was that added to the Dictonary? Because it has become a popular meaning for the world.

So you confirm my point by quoting the dictonary that has altered the meaning of the world wicked because of the change in the popular use of the word. So the dictonary is not a firm, never changing, foundation that keeps words meanings locked.


thanks


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[scifes]

Just a short question to believers.

somethings are real. you believe those.
belief in those things usually require or result in the belief of other things which you normally can't know.
those things you have a faith in.


your father demonstrates his love and foresight to you in many occasions.
that becomes real.
when he makes a decision that by your sense doesn't carry any love or foresight, and yet you listen to him, that's faith.

do you see now how god is real yet we have faith in him?

 

[swarm]

My "mustard seed" sized faith brings knowledge, and can move mountains.

Is certainly can produce mountains of BS.

Conversely... your abysmal ignorance?...Powerless to do anything but consign you to eternal 'darkness'.

Ah, the religious are always good for a few empty threats.

It has occurred to me that since I can't prove you aren't satan, you must be!

 

[swarm]

do you see now how god is real yet we have faith in him?

No. I don't see any real god and I see that despite the noise, you don't actually have faith in her.

Instead you fear her, think shes really a bad being, but you also think she's really gullible and stupid.

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

No. I don't see any real god and I see that despite the noise, you don't actually have faith in her.

Instead you fear her, think shes really a bad being, but you also think she's really gullible and stupid.

Would it be you who fear this bad God, who you therefore dismiss as gullible and stupid swarm? If so, I'm sorry to hear that...

 

[swarm]

Would it be you who fear this bad God, who you therefore dismiss as gullible and stupid swarm? If so, I'm sorry to hear that...

Sorry Dog, by invoking pascal's wager you show you believe in an evil, yet stupid and gullible god.

That's the backside of the wager. A good god isn't going to care that the atheist didn't believe in them.

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

Sorry Dog, by invoking pascal's wager you show you believe in an evil, yet stupid and gullible god.

That's the backside of the wager. A good god isn't going to care that the atheist didn't believe in them.

Maybe you haven't seen the updated version I posted earlier?

Pascal’s Wager
This is not a proof, but a persuasive argument for belief in God, in the absence of conclusive argument either way.

1. There is no conclusive rational proof of God’s existence or non-existence.
2. However, if God does exist, finding God becomes of supreme importance, and the way to the ultimately rewarding and meaningful life.
3. Research shows that believers in a benign God are generally happier, healthier and live longer than non-believers. (N.B. See the work of Tully, J., et al., 2006; O'Connor, P.J., et al. 2005; Krucoff, M. W., et al. 2005; D'Souza, R.F. & A. Rodrigo. 2004; Hughes M. et al., 2000; Koenig H.G., et al., 1997; Strawbridge, W.J., et al. 1997 and many more).
4. Therefore, in the absence of proof, it is worth making an initial ‘leap of faith’ and to act on the assumption that a benign God does exist (until the evidence proves otherwise).
5. If you are right and God exists, you will live a rewarding and meaningful life.
6. If you are wrong and God does not exist, you are still more likely to have led a happier, healthier and longer life, than if you had not believed.

It's not about getting sent to hell and heaven, it's about finding your way to Eudaimonia!

 

[swarm]

Maybe you haven't seen the updated version I posted earlier?

I saw it.

It's not about getting sent to hell and heaven, it's about finding your way to Eudaimonia!

Eudaimonia is not about god and is about here and now.

There is no conclusive rational proof of God’s existence or non-existence.

This is a fallacy. You are assuming there is a god, but that there just isn't proof yet (begging the question). The correct way to state this is:

There is not yet any reason to consider claims of god seriously.

However, if God does exist, finding God becomes of supreme importance, and the way to the ultimately rewarding and meaningful life.

Since there is nothing actually known about god, there is no reason to assume an actual "god" is necessarily of any importance to a person's life. People who avoid the god delusion lead as rewarding and meaningful life as any one else. And if there is such an actual "god," it is obviously going out of its way to avoid becoming involved.

Research shows that believers in a benign God are generally happier, healthier and live longer than non-believers.

And reseach has shown that Buddhists, who hold no necessary beliefs about gods, are measurably happier than those of other faiths.

So? Are you going to become a Buddhist?

Therefore, in the absence of proof, it is worth making an initial ‘leap of faith’ and to act on the assumption that a benign God does exist (until the evidence proves otherwise).

So in the absence of any evidence for god what so ever, it is best to dismiss god all together and investigate what actually are positive influences in a person's life.

If you are right and God exists, from (2) you will live a rewarding and meaningful life.

Just skip the delusion all together and learn to lead a rewarding and meaningful life through correct effort like the Buddhists.

If you are wrong and God does not exist, from (3) you are still more likely to have led a happier, healthier and longer life, than if you had not believed.

Or if the delusion over takes you, you do crazy stuff like killing people for god, hating gays, etc.

If by some absurd quirk of fate there actually is a god, she will reward you for catching the hint and leaving her in peace like she obviously wants.

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

Eudaimonia is not about god and is about here and now.

If you read the Bible, Jesus talks repeatedly about "The Kingdom of Heaven", not as just an afterlife, but as a 'state of divine contemplation' in the here and now. It may continue after death too!

This is a fallacy. You are assuming there is a god, but that there just isn't proof yet (begging the question). The correct way to state this is:

There is not yet any reason to consider claims of god seriously.

Incorrect. You are not seeing beyond your own prejudice. There are many reasons: e.g. Religious experiences, accounts in the Bible, people's witnessing, changes in people (give up addictions) etc.

I think we have had this debate before swarm...

Since there is nothing actually known about god, there is no reason to assume an actual "god" is necessarily of any importance to a person's life. People who avoid the god delusion lead as rewarding and meaningful life as any one else. And if there is such an actual "god," it is obviously going out of its way to avoid becoming involved.

Wrong again. Read this on "Happiness" from Time magazine. I've plenty more such articles if you are interested!

And reseach has shown that Buddhists, who hold no necessary beliefs about gods, are measurably happier than those of other faiths.

So? Are you going to become a Buddhist?

We have been here before swarm. I admire much in Buddhism - all paths up the same mountain.

So in the absence of any evidence for god what so ever, it is best to dismiss god all together and investigate what actually are positive influences in a person's life.

Religion isn't the only positive influence, but it is one. See the article on happiness.

Or if the delusion over takes you, you do crazy stuff like killing people for god, hating gays, etc.

No. That's fanaticism, which is problematical whether theist or atheist. Atheist regimes do not have a proud history either. Pol Pot, Soviet Union gulags, Mao's persecutions...