If Islam is really bad, why ON EARTH then all these westerners are converting ????

[Flores]

It's much simpler than that, but as say, stupid minds like you can't see the simple answers, I can just click on control panel and place you on my ignore list......

Oh....done..I can't see your posts anymore......that was fast and very pleasant. If you try to send me a private message, it will inform you that you are ignored by me.

Bye Bye, I'll miss your idiocity.

 

[Quigly]

Flores Said

We believe that Abraham was one of the first Prophets that professed Islam or the idea of submitting to the one god. Thus Abraham is a Muslim, for to be a muslim, it's only required that we submit to god. Jesus was also a muslim and so was Moses.

"The idea of submitting to the one God" Adam in the garden was of the same belief. Was he also a muslim? Was Jesus a Muslim? Was Paul a Muslim? Was everbody in the bible who also believed in the one True God also a muslim? I think you have created a problem with saying the abraham believed in the Muslim god. Yes he believed in a single God but so does every other Monotheistic religion. So to make a blanket statement that all Monotheistic religions are muslim is be incorrect. Even if the descendants of abraham formed a muslim traditional belief does not imply that abraham agreed with there belief. Example. Just because you are muslim doesnt mean your kids will grow up and stay muslim. You may disregard and even disown them if they believed something different, but that doesn't change the fact that they believed something different. Abraham of the bible believed in the God that had promised him Issac who would be the lineage of Jesus and Christianity. (Issac in the Old testament is a typeology or a picture of Jesus also) Then you also say that Abraham believed in the race of Ishmael and the beliefs from the lineage thereof. So my point, whether this is a discussion about abraham or a discussion about religion. That no matter what abraham believed, wouldn't dictate what the next generation of people believe. I hope this a clear, my whole point is that it isn't a valid argument to say that abraham was a muslim. It is more valid to say that he could have been, but then that gives him a 50/50 chance that he might now be also.
Anybody, is this reasonable to assume that that abraham may or may not be attributed to the same beliefs that the muslims believe today?

 

[Flores]

Re: Flores Said

Originally posted by Quigly
"The idea of submitting to the one God" Adam in the garden was of the same belief. Was he also a muslim? Was Jesus a Muslim? Was Paul a Muslim? Was everbody in the bible who also believed in the one True God also a muslim? I think you have created a problem with saying the abraham believed in the Muslim god. Yes he believed in a single God but so does every other Monotheistic religion.

Yes, and you might also be a muslim without knowing it, do you see how beautifull is Islam. It's not what Bin Laden decide, it's god that will decide who is his true submitters, and they may come from all the different faithes, yet be in one heaven.

 

[Quigly]

Yes, and you might also be a muslim without knowing it, do you see how beautifull is Islam. It's not what Bin Laden decide, it's god that will decide who is his true submitters, and they may come from all the different faithes, yet be in one heaven.

I wouldn't say beautiful... I don't credit beauty to any religion that has its followers believe that martyrdom is found in blowing themselves up and murdering innocent people. Whether these people are deranged(Spelling?) or whatever, they still proclaim and represent Muslim religion. (no wonder it isn't widely approved of in a civil society) I do not think or believe that I am anyway connected to the god that you believe in. I believe it is fictitious (spelling?) The God I believe in speaks of one way to heaven and that is through his son Jesus, who is the mediator between God and man. I do not think that the God I believe in who offers mercy, grace, and communion with him through Jesus is in any way connected to your god who requires good works to get to heaven. Christianity is about realizing that there is no good in ourselves and there was no hope for anything good in life or the next without Jesus. Upon believing in Jesus, Salvation will come, and good will flow out of you. You will no longer desire to do evil works, but you will desire to do good, because mercy was shown on you. As for your last statement about many different faiths coming to one god... well that would create a schitzo god(spelling on Schitzo?)

I did the spelling() thing because I know there are like correction police everywher waiting to correct spelling.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Quigly
I wouldn't say beautiful... I don't credit beauty to any religion that has its followers believe that martyrdom is found in blowing themselves up and murdering innocent people. Whether these people are deranged(Spelling?) or whatever, they still proclaim and represent Muslim religion.

Is this your comfort zone to insult muslims and perform ludicrous generalizations that you know are not true. You know very well, that martyrdom and crap like that are a result of harsh political situation that homeless people who have been in a state of war for 50 years are using as last resort. Don't be the one that take the morning dew away from a man starving and thirsty in the desert, it's quite cruel.

Originally posted by Quigly
(no wonder it isn't widely approved of in a civil society) I do not think or believe that I am anyway connected to the god that you believe in.

You are prejudice to state that at the very least, and the god that I believe in who created us all is not a prejudice god. If you don't believe in the one god that created all humans out of mud and gave perfect proportions to the universe, then you are an Atheist and in that case, you are right, you don't believe in the god I believe in.

Originally posted by Quigly
I believe it is fictitious (spelling?) The God I believe in speaks of one way to heaven and that is through his son Jesus, who is the mediator between God and man.

My god is above all rich of want or need and doesn't have a son or a daughter. I have no mediator between me and my creator, so again we must have different god, and I and Abraham and adam must enjoy the same god.

Originally posted by Quigly
I do not think that the God I believe in who offers mercy, grace, and communion with him through Jesus is in any way connected to your god who requires good works to get to heaven.

Your god sound so cruel to not advocate good works and only offer connection for salvation. Under your presumed god, I may be less than murderes and rapists who can say by tongue that they believe in Jesus.

Originally posted by Quigly
Christianity is about realizing that there is no good in ourselves and there was no hope for anything good in life or the next without Jesus.

What a horrible prespective.....My little babies don't know Jesus from Bush and there is a lot of goodness inside of them. God created us in the best way with a lot of goodness waiting to be found. I sure don't want no part of a faith that teaches me that I'm rotten by nature and my inner being doesn't agree with those teachings, they repel me about any religion that teach that.

Originally posted by Quigly
Upon believing in Jesus, Salvation will come, and good will flow out of you. You will no longer desire to do evil works, but you will desire to do good, because mercy was shown on you. As for your last statement about many different faiths coming to one god... well that would create a schitzo god(spelling on Schitzo?)

I believe in god and that's enough, it seems like a church arm twisting for me to be told to believe in other but god. God doesn't have lines in the days of judgement to stand all the different faithes. We will all be judged by our works and faith in him....period.

Originally posted by Quigly
I did the spelling() thing because I know there are like correction police everywher waiting to correct spelling.

Not me, I see past that, and I don't dwell in hurting others unless they provoke me....you have been pretty decent so far.

 

[Jeremy]

Originally posted by Flores
It's much simpler than that, but as say, stupid minds like you can't see the simple answers, I can just click on control panel and place you on my ignore list......

Oh....done..I can't see your posts anymore......that was fast and very pleasant. If you try to send me a private message, it will inform you that you are ignored by me.

Bye Bye, I'll miss your idiocity.

I guess this means she gives up? I win she loses? So much for a strong faith.....

Is the truth so hard to see, she is afraid to look at it? I guess so.
If she can be that easily broken, there is great hope that all Islamics can be de-brainwashed, if only one by one.



Something tells me Flores will be back....just one little peak....I know you waaaaant it.

 

[davewhite04]

Originally posted by Flores

We believe that Abraham was one of the first Prophets that professed Islam or the idea of submitting to the one god. Thus Abraham is a Muslim, for to be a muslim, it's only required that we submit to god. Jesus was also a muslim and so was Moses.

Monotheism, is what Abraham rebirthed (Monotheism is believed to existed before Abraham but was lost). Abraham was a Pagan initially then he rebelled and walked the desert. To call Abraham a Muslim is like calling Jesus a Christian.

Dave

 

[Quigly]

Flores said

Is this your comfort zone to insult muslims and perform ludicrous generalizations that you know are not true. You know very well, that martyrdom and crap like that are a result of harsh political situation that homeless people who have been in a state of war for 50 years are using as last resort. Don't be the one that take the morning dew away from a man starving and thirsty in the desert, it's quite cruel.

I bring no insult to muslims, neither do I judge them, I just watch their actions. Actions speak louder than words. Everything may be crap for them, but still that isn't an excuse to perform self-immolation, and suicide prone attacks. Why has the western civilization worked and not the mid-east situation? Just a question.

I am be no means prejudice and I have muslim clients that I deal with all the time. I believe that there are a lot of good muslims, I do think that there are some whacked out muslims also. (I believe that about everyone though. I believe there are some whacked out christians, but no prejudice.

Again, How can you continue to say that Adam and Abraham come from the god you serve? Again, my example still stands... Logically, There is a chance of error on your part. There is a chance of error on my part. (It is by faith that I believe)

My God advocates good works, but a fallen creature can't do good apart from being reborn by salvation. Good must be defined by intentions of the heart. Good must be defined by alterior and interior motives.

Also, No I am not an atheist because of pre-determined definitions of the word atheist.
P.S.
I try not to insult people on here because there is no point and that does not spawn good progressive debate.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by davewhite04
Monotheism, is what Abraham rebirthed (Monotheism is believed to existed before Abraham but was lost). Abraham was a Pagan initially then he rebelled and walked the desert. To call Abraham a Muslim is like calling Jesus a Christian.

Dave

I agree, you are more ideal than me and more accurate. I guess the only difference between the name Muslim and the name christian is that Muslim literally means submitter to one god, while christian means follower of christ, so you use the word Muslim to describe all those that submit to god from the beginning of time, while you can't use the word christian to describe those people who existed pre-christ.

I like the name Muslim over Monotheism, because theism includes worshipping dieties and mono means one, so a monotheist can be one that worship one cow, while a muslim is a submitter to god.

 

[davewhite04]

Originally posted by Flores
Islam is a religion with no beginning and no end. Islam was not started with Prophet Mohammed. We believe that Prophet Mohammed is continuing and the last prophet to deliver the same message that was delivered before him which is to believe in the one creater and to submit to him in knowin that our fate is in his heads and that our afterlife is a pay back to our doing on this earth.

We believe that Abraham was one of the first Prophets that professed Islam or the idea of submitting to the one god. Thus Abraham is a Muslim, for to be a muslim, it's only required that we submit to god. Jesus was also a muslim and so was Moses.

Everything has a beginning (Maybe not the universe), so I see your religion as no different.

Are you trying to say that Monotheism is an exclusive word only usable by Muslims? Jesus was a Jew (A religion that was founded by Abraham), wasn't he? Maybe we should have a debate on that...

Dave

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by davewhite04
Everything has a beginning (Maybe not the universe), so I see your religion as no different.

I don't agree here, I don't think that humans are the only thing that can be muslim. I believe the moon and star are in the state of Islam from the beginning of time. They are in a complete submission state to their creator revolving as they are created to do never missing a beat. The animals are muslims, the insects are muslims, the ocean is the muslim, ect....It's only human that have the choice to be muslim or not and there is no other choice, not christian or jew, only whether a human choose to submit as the moon does or not.

Originally posted by davewhite04
Are you trying to say that Monotheism is an exclusive word only usable by Muslims? Jesus was a Jew (A religion that was founded by Abraham), wasn't he? Maybe we should have a debate on that...

Precisely, monotheism is the notion of believing and submitting in one god and in that sense = Islam. Abraham was not a jew neither was Jesus or Moses. Jew means guided. The followers of Moses were called the guided or the jews. One may be guided yet still might not be a submitter. I can be guided to know the right from wrong and still do the wrong, and that's why the guided or judiasm is not the religion of god, just a word describing the guidance that Moses recieved from god.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Abraham a Muslim

Originally posted by Quigly
Yes I agree How is Abraham a muslim. This doesn't make much sense at all.

There were two publications recently with articles about Abraham being Muslim--Time and National Geographic. There are many books available that state this as fact. One title I recall is "The History of Sacred and Profound Things," I don't remember the author right now, but he was on CNN 2 years ago discussing his book. He was a theologist and archeologist, I think.

Also, more recent publications, "Jesus: The Last Pharoah," "The Gospel of Mary Magdalene," "The Gospel of Thomas," to name a few.

About Abraham being Muslim, I found it hard to believe when I first read this, but after several confirmations, it now makes sense to me. Since we weren't there in Abraham's time, all we have to go on is what has been discovered and written about.

I'm almost afraid to say this, but--Sarah was known to be the concubine of a Pharoah with Abraham's blessing! Late discoveries published are saying that Isaac may have been the son of Sarah and the Pharoah.

Hey, I didn't make this stuff up--so don't take it out on me! The literature is available to everyone.

 

[davewhite04]

Originally posted by Flores
I don't agree here, I don't think that humans are the only thing that can be muslim. I believe the moon and star are in the state of Islam from the beginning of time. They are in a complete submission state to their creator revolving as they are created to do never missing a beat. The animals are muslims, the insects are muslims, the ocean is the muslim, ect....It's only human that have the choice to be muslim or not and there is no other choice, not christian or jew, only whether a human choose to submit as the moon does or not.

That's informative, Thankyou. My dog is a muslim

Precisely, monotheism is the notion of believing and submitting in one god and in that sense = Islam. Abraham was not a jew neither was Jesus or Moses. Jew means guided. The followers of Moses were called the guided or the jews. One may be guided yet still might not be a submitter. I can be guided to know the right from wrong and still do the wrong, and that's why the guided or judiasm is not the religion of god, just a word describing the guidance that Moses recieved from god.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Mose's a Pagan, who found out he was a Jew and then proceded to save his ppl? What your saying is that every Jew who gets feedback from GOD ie Jesus, Moses Etc. is a Muslim?

Dave

 

[Flores]

Re: Flores said

Originally posted by Quigly
I bring no insult to muslims, neither do I judge them, I just watch their actions. Actions speak louder than words. Everything may be crap for them, but still that isn't an excuse to perform self-immolation, and suicide prone attacks. Why has the western civilization worked and not the mid-east situation? Just a question.

Maybe, you should have been born 1000 years ago into a corrupt church that sold you heaven keys and tortured you if you dared questioned it. Why did the westerners have dark ages and midevil times when the east was enjoying the light of knowledge and the richeness.??? Ask yourself that question and learn not to take things for granted, because civilizations are cyclical, meaning if you are enjoying an up now, a down is in your way.

Originally posted by Quigly
I am be no means prejudice and I have muslim clients that I deal with all the time. I believe that there are a lot of good muslims, I do think that there are some whacked out muslims also. (I believe that about everyone though. I believe there are some whacked out christians, but no prejudice.

That's good Quigly, we are all flesh and blood, poop, eat, love, hate, lie sometimes, ect.. We are all humans created by one god and some of us are good and some choose to be bad regardless of what race, religion, or sex they were born into.

Originally posted by Quigly
Again, How can you continue to say that Adam and Abraham come from the god you serve? Again, my example still stands... Logically, There is a chance of error on your part. There is a chance of error on my part. (It is by faith that I believe)

I can say that with confidence since adam and abraham belong to the homo sapien race that I happen to be born into and one god has created all homo sapiens and this is the god I believe in. How can I be erroring as such.

Originally posted by Quigly
My God advocates good works, but a fallen creature can't do good apart from being reborn by salvation. Good must be defined by intentions of the heart. Good must be defined by alterior and interior motives.

I don't believe I'm a fallen creature, I'm here on the earth not because I have fallen from the sky, but because I'm honored to be subjected to a certain test and I hope I'll do favorably.

Originally posted by Quigly
I try not to insult people on here because there is no point and that does not spawn good progressive debate.

I agree and good for you.

 

[davewhite04]

Re: Abraham a Muslim

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
There were two publications recently with articles about Abraham being Muslim--Time and National Geographic. There are many books available that state this as fact. One title I recall is "The History of Sacred and Profound Things," I don't remember the author right now, but he was on CNN 2 years ago discussing his book. He was a theologist and archeologist, I think.

Also, more recent publications, "Jesus: The Last Pharoah," "The Gospel of Mary Magdalene," "The Gospel of Thomas," to name a few.

About Abraham being Muslim, I found it hard to believe when I first read this, but after several confirmations, it now makes sense to me. Since we weren't there in Abraham's time, all we have to go on is what has been discovered and written about.

I'm almost afraid to say this, but--Sarah was known to be the concubine of a Pharoah with Abraham's blessing! Late discoveries published are saying that Isaac may have been the son of Sarah and the Pharoah.

Hey, I didn't make this stuff up--so don't take it out on me! The literature is available to everyone.

The ideal that the Muslim faith stands for ie Monetheism (As explained by Flores) is believed to existed before Abraham. Paganism had pretty much taken over the world religiously speaking, until Abraham burst onto the scene.

What Abraham did was bring back the belief in one GOD. Now Flores believes that the Muslim religion has always existed so if you're a Muslim then (because of what Abraham believed) Abraham is a Muslim.

However, I believe the notion of there being only one GOD has existed before Abraham but the Muslim religion didn't exist until after Abraham so he couldn't be a Muslim if the religion didn't exist. Boy, this is getting complex!

Dave

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by davewhite04
That's informative, Thankyou. My dog is a muslim
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Mose's a Pagan, who found out he was a Jew and then proceded to save his ppl? What your saying is that every Jew who gets feedback from GOD ie Jesus, Moses Etc. is a Muslim?

Moses was a pagan alright, then he thought too much about the injustice done to his people, then god spoke to him and informed him that he knows of his plight and will help him and that he chose him as a Prophet to deliver the message of Islam or submition to one god to his people. He saved his people out of Egypt, then his ungratefull people who never really submitted to the god that saved them went and worshipped a cow, then Moses got frustrated with his people and threw the commandments away never to be found till this day.

There is nothing called Jew or Christian or this nonesense, there are believers and submitters to god, that's it, so yes, every person that be a prophet or a regular person who is humble enough to bow in submission to his god is qualified to be called a muslim.

By the way, notice the common theme. Abraham bowed to the floor in submission to god, Moses took his shoes off and bowed to god in submission. Jesus bowed to god. They are all submitters in the most powerful way.

 

[Quigly]

Flores said:

There is nothing called Jew or Christian or this nonesense, there are believers and submitters to god, that's it, so yes, every person that be a prophet or a regular person who is humble enough to bow in submission to his god is qualified to be called a muslim.

Slow the train down there honey... I am not sure why you say there is nothing called a jew or a christian ...
Possibly what you are wanting everyone here to say is that by definition given in Merriam-Websters Dictionary
(http://www.m-w.com/home.htm) for the Arabic word Muslim: means one who surrenders (to God)

Arabic wasn't the first language so I am sure there is another word that would bring the same attributes by definition. Still though, we know that Muslim is attributed to the Islamic Religion. Including belief in Allah as the sole deity and in Muhammad as his prophet.

Christians who serve Jehovah (Yahweh) as the sole deity and believe in his son Jesus as the means for Salvation.

The jewish religion is linked to Abrahams promised son Issac.

I don't think you can discredit Christians. I don't think you can add them into the "Muslim" word either. I think the two religions interperet God differently. As far as salvation, Christians believe one means of Salvation and Muslims believe in another means. So whether we believe in the same God per se , The means for salvation is what would bring the seperation. That and what scriptures we would adhere to.

 

[davewhite04]

Originally posted by Flores

There is nothing called Jew or Christian or this nonesense, there are believers and submitters to god, that's it, so yes, every person that be a prophet or a regular person who is humble enough to bow in submission to his god is qualified to be called a muslim.

Flores,

So Christians and Jews for example are qualified Muslims? Is what you say above widely accepted by all Muslims?

Thanks,

Dave

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
A NATION CHALLENGED: AMERICAN MUSLIMS; Islam Attracts Converts By the Thousands, Drawn Before and After Attacks

so, that alone does not make islam true or right,

also, at least in the West you are allowed to convert to any belief you want, even islam. Can you say that of Syria?

also, why do muslim countries & cultures condone the killing of those that convert out of islam? what's up with that?

 

[Tiassa]

Randolfo

Randolfo

so, that alone does not make islam true or right,

Please see my post entitled "(Insert Title Here)" on page 2 of this topic, dated 7.1.03. I address a similar question briefly. Specifically, isn't this beside the point?

also, at least in the West you are allowed to convert to any belief you want, even islam. Can you say that of Syria?

I really wish someone would make that argument seem more significant. Right now it's an abstract comparison that is not entirely relevant.

also, why do muslim countries & cultures condone the killing of those that convert out of islam? what's up with that?

Great question. You ought to start a topic about that and fill everyone in on the details.

:m:,
Tiassa