If God existed he could end all this suffering right now

elte said:
Yes indeed, it has already worked well. Cooperation is a necessary thing in our world, and why all of us are here now, whereas, with thoughtful effort, we could eliminate competition, and be better off afterwards. In fact, we already do practice cooperation, usually everyday of our lives. And the more we practice it, the better we become.
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There were two people here in New Zealand before the Europeans arrived, and the first were the Morioris http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriori_people
and the later The Maori. The Moriori philosophy of cooperation and non-violence did not help them when face with the more war-like Maori, and they have virtually been made extinct.

So be careful how far you take cooperation, for it is often seen as a soft belly for your enemy.
 
elte said:
Yeah, literally, ideas cannot compete because they are first, nonphysical, and second, not conscious and self-aware (yes, don't have a will). The people with ideas will that just the ideas compete. That involves willing (wishing) the people with other ideas not be hurt. (It is an abstract notion, indeed, but that doesn't make it unreal.)

So the nurturers in society who do the instructing and behavior exampling have a noble task of teaching compassionate ethics all along, so that the racist mind doesn't develop. And this way of treating people is how to best prevent tragic events of extreme competition like 9/11.
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So your ideas are applicable only in some other world, but not this one?
Then they aren't worth much.


No, closer to Shangri-La. Look at the Dalai Lama. He has lived the life as well as anyone can, and it has been pretty good.
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The Dalai Lama? That's probably the worst example that can be offered on this topic. Unless one firmly subscribes to reincarnation (and even then there are some issues with crediting an individual's accomplishment), Tenzin Gyatso is an example of someone who has lived an extremely sheltered and guided life ever since he was a child; in circumstances like that, it's no wonder he turned out the way he did.
The life story and personality of someone born, raised and living in the slums, in material and psychological depravity, but who nevertheless became a person worth looking up to - such an example would be far more impressive.


Two people competing (against each other) often escalates to gunfire.
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That's a very narrow view of competition.

I find it interesting to explore how come that for so many people, competition between people translates into taking from another what one lacks, or sabotaging another in the hope to secure or attain gains for oneself.


Yes it is important to win at a lot of things like recovering from the flu or avoiding hunger. The winning should be in a figurative sense against things (or as mentioned earlier, ideas), such things are not conscious and don't suffer and don't have a will to fight. There is the expression, "winning at life," and that is good. It is a good attitude, and that is what all I'm really saying boils down to--having a good attitude.
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Oh, everyone has a "good attitude." The question is, toward what.
 
Robittybob1 said:
There were two people here in New Zealand before the Europeans arrived, and the first were the Morioris http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriori_people
and the later The Maori. The Moriori philosophy of cooperation and non-violence did not help them when face with the more war-like Maori, and they have virtually been made extinct.

So be careful how far you take cooperation, for it is often seen as a soft belly for your enemy.
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So the Moriori were the victims there so the blame falls upon the Maori. However yeah, the Moriori didn't have to be martyrs for the cause they knew was right unless they believed that they would get an afterlife reward that made it worthwhile.
 
wynn said:
So your ideas are applicable only in some other world, but not this one?
Then they aren't worth much.
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No, ideas are real and have real effects. The USA has the tradition of supporting the idea of free speech and we benefit from it. Also, the people with the ideas shouldn't see the other person as being opposed to them, just the idea. If the other person is seen as the enemy, then the people can justify violence, either mental or physical. That opens the door for physical attacks and psychological abuse, including bullying. These aggressions cause anger which impedes reasoned thought essential for society.





The Dalai Lama? That's probably the worst example that can be offered on this topic. Unless one firmly subscribes to reincarnation (and even then there are some issues with crediting an individual's accomplishment), Tenzin Gyatso is an example of someone who has lived an extremely sheltered and guided life ever since he was a child; in circumstances like that, it's no wonder he turned out the way he did.
The life story and personality of someone born, raised and living in the slums, in material and psychological depravity, but who nevertheless became a person worth looking up to - such an example would be far more impressive.
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Then the Dalai Lama case illustrates the importance of having a nurtured life. He has had a pretty long life and hasn't changed his views on compassion. The incarnation belief is a negative for my case, though, because belief in afterlife often causes a difference in behavior.


People born and raised in the slums, to advance so much, would be due mostly to luck. They would likely need both a quality education, and also economic breaks in life to get enough visibility for themselves in the world to make a good difference.



That's a very narrow view of competition.

I find it interesting to explore how come that for so many people, competition between people translates into taking from another what one lacks, or sabotaging another in the hope to secure or attain gains for oneself.
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That is the basic quality of competition, to take something from one thing to add it to another, including the unwilled sense. So if ideas themselves are the competing things, there wouldn't be physical or psychological aggression. Mammals, including humans, though more compassionate than lower life forms, still suffer from the competitive tendency given them by Darwinian evolution. It takes good education to resist that tendency, best begun from the cradle.


Oh, everyone has a "good attitude." The question is, toward what.
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Toward other people. Everyone should remember they are all in a struggle and so all people should cooperate to fight against harmful things in our individual and collective existences. If an asteroid were on collision course with Earth, people would cooperate because they know that is most effective. They should use cooperation for the smaller, less pressing problems, too.
 
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What about if God created the Universe and the first thing he wanted to do is live a life on Earth so he made a history really quick but the year he picked to be born was 2150 and when he dies he gets his powers. So this would mean of course we didn't see God because he didn't exist in our lifetime. And he just couldn't do anything about the holocaust because he is going to someday read it in a history book and that's going to be his point of view.
 
Magical Realist said:
He could appear to us and come down and tell everyone, "It's over. Here I am. I exist. Now everything will be fine from henceforth. No more suffering. No more tragedies. No more evil. I will let you continue to solve your problems, but you have my help and support now." Why couldn't this happen? Or does the mere knowledge of an omnipotent God take away our freedom?
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Yes and no as it gets complicated.

I hear you but if a God did pop up and end evil, it would be the end of man's evolution because in evolution, the goal is survival of the fittest and that means that we have to do evil to the losers we compete against to find the fittest.

The meek would inherit the earth and mankind would lose it's fittest as the would no longer be able to climb the evolutionary ladder to the top.

If the child murdering God of the bible ever showed up, it would be in mankind's best interest to do as I would do.

Here is a hint.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7vCww3j2-w

Regards
DL
 
Greatest I am said:
Yes and no as it gets complicated.
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I hear you but if a God did pop up and end evil, it would be the end of man's evolution because in evolution, the goal is survival of the fittest and that means that we have to do evil to the losers we compete against to find the fittest.
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Really , do evil to those who are not quite as fit

What is the definition of the " fittest " in evolution ?

The meek would inherit the earth and mankind would lose it's fittest as the would no longer be able to climb the evolutionary ladder to the top.
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Define meek

If the child murdering God of the bible ever showed up, it would be in mankind's best interest to do as I would do.

Here is a hint.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7vCww3j2-w

Regards
DL
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Really

So this god is more important than your own Humanity

That is troubling

god introduced evil

I wonder what the evolving Humanity would have thought of challenges set by the Universe if this god concept had never arisen ?

I would imagine nothing more than just a challenge to Humanities survival

And would have looked upon these challenges upon Humanities survival out of respect , rather than the perspective of the dichotomy of good and evil
 
I have no need to define those terms. Try Webster. I do not plan on redefining common words.

How does losing my humanity enter in what I wrote?

Is that because I would do harm to a genocidal son murdering prick?

Regards
DL
 
what kind of god allows this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1kbayAdlgg

as for survival of the fittest, does that have true merit in the big picture, when chance and circumstances dictate also one's lot or fate. it's not fair and i don't care for any god like that if it exists or to ignore those who suffer because they feel just as we do but weren't so fortunate. it's not right.
 
river said:
Because you make god more important than Humanity
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No. Hell no.

Surely you have seen this below before.

The Godhead I know in a nutshell.
I was a skeptic till the age of 39.
I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself an esoteric ecumenist and Gnostic Christian. Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake.

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of O T God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheep where Gnostic Christians are goats.
This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. He does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have tribal mentalities and poor morals.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.



Does that sound like I put a genocidal son murdering God above men?

Regards
DL
 
Robittybob1 said:
What would you like Jesus to do?
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If Jesus or God want to be relevant to man then they have to be here and not absentee.

Jesus said --- I come quickly but the scribe who put those words in Jesus' mouth must have thought that Jesus had a premature ejaculation problem.

Jesus has to be the slowest God in the universe.

Regards
DL
 
Greatest I am said:
If Jesus or God want to be relevant to man then they have to be here and not absentee.

Jesus said --- I come quickly but the scribe who put those words in Jesus' mouth must have thought that Jesus had a premature ejaculation problem.

Jesus has to be the slowest God in the universe.

Regards
DL
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Even at the speed of light how long would it take to go to another galaxy? So light takes hundreds of millions of years to go anywhere substantial. So on what standard are you operating to.
Like what are your expectations, for when you complain about slowness, surely you have an expectation of an optimum delay.
How long should it take?
Who is the fastest God in the Universe?
 
river said:
Because you make god more important than Humanity
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And you never offer a solution for how to create peace and prosperity on earth that doesn't involve killing off a major percentage of the population.
 
Robittybob1 said:
Even at the speed of light how long would it take to go to another galaxy? So light takes hundreds of millions of years to go anywhere substantial. So on what standard are you operating to.
Like what are your expectations, for when you complain about slowness, surely you have an expectation of an optimum delay.
How long should it take?
Who is the fastest God in the Universe?
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If Jesus or God want to be relevant to man then they have to be here and not absentee.

Regards
DL
 
Robittybob1 said:
Do you have the solution?
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Jesus gave it in Revelation. We must elect ourselves a God.

Not your imaginary absentee God. A real one. A Man.

Men have always been our Gods or spoke for the imaginary ones they invented.

You are a man.

Why would you want to follow an alien genocidal son murderer?

Regards
DL
 
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