If eating meat is unethical, why is it ok to kill babies?

[antifreeze]

okay then. i will admit that i was wrong in this case. thank you.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

A subset of Indians, known as Jains are lacto-vegetarians, i.e. they do not even consume eggs.

I'm sure they mean right, but this just made me giggle. Eggs are embryos, or unfertilized egg cells and are not the product of any lactation process.

 

[q0101]

q0101:
So, are there no important differences at all between plants and animals, do you think? Or are some differences important? What about differences between humans and other animals? Anything important there?

Of course they are important differences between plants and animals. I think the most important difference for vegetarians is the fact that plants don’t have cute faces. I can bet you that some vegetarians would not want to eat a plant that evolved the ability to invoke the same feelings that we experience when we look at a cute animal or a baby.

The only thing that makes humans different from animals is the dexterity of our fingers and our large prefrontal cortex relative to the size of our body

So, what you're saying is the only thing you really care about is yourself.

Interesting.

Read my earlier post in this thread. Yes that is what I am saying.

I bet you don't care about the suffering of humans in Africa. That doesn't affect you - right?

Once again, read my earlier post in this thread. As I said before, we are all connected. Yes I do care about the suffering of humans in Africa. It would not take a long time for the misery of an African person to affect me in a negative way. The cause and effect may not always be noticeable, but the actions of one person in a small African village can cause a chain reaction that can affect me in a positive way or a negative way.

So, the strong should dominate the weak, then.

It is the law of the jungle. It is not going to change just because you think it is immoral or unethical.

I guess torture is ok, too, if you can get away with it.
Interesting.

Yes it is ok. But there is no realistic scenario that I can imagine in which it would be logical for me to torture someone. Perhaps if aliens came to me and gave me some kind of genetically enhanced body that game me the powers of a comic book superhero. I would probably kill and torture some people if I was the only person on the planet with the powers of someone like Superman. It would be no different than killing an annoying insect.

I believe that morals and ethics are just chemical illusions. I don’t believe in the concept of good and evil. I prefer to live by rules that are based on logic and probability. I do have the potential to be a heartless killer, but it is logical for me to be kind and compassionate because it increases my probability of getting the things that I want in life. I think this world would be a much better place if we were all guided by logic instead of our emotions.

 

[wsionynw]

Yes it is ok. But there is no realistic scenario that I can imagine in which it would be logical for me to torture someone. Perhaps if aliens came to me and gave me some kind of genetically enhanced body that game me the powers of a comic book superhero. I would probably kill and torture some people if I was the only person on the planet with the powers of someone like Superman. It would be no different than killing an annoying insect.

I believe that morals and ethics are just chemical illusions. I don’t believe in the concept of good and evil. I prefer to live by rules that are based on logic and probability. I do have the potential to be a heartless killer, but it is logical for me to be kind and compassionate because it increases my probability of getting the things that I want in life. I think this world would be a much better place if we were all guided by logic instead of our emotions.

You sound like a sociopath, seek help.

 

[heliocentric]

Yes, I am selfish. Subjectively everything is about me. Objectively I am just spec of dust in a vast universe. Everything is about you in your subjective experience also. You just aren’t aware of it. Do you know what compassion is? The main chemicals involved in compassion are oxytocin and serotonin. People are compassionate because it makes them feel good.

Compassion isnt just a chemical reaction though, i think Youre taking a perspective and acting like that perspective encapsulates the whole reality of what emotion is.
Its like me saying 'a movie is just light projected onto a screen' the statemnt
is true, but im really underselling the full reality of what a movie is..
theres so many more ways to see it.

Why should anyone be kind and helpful if they are not getting something in return?

If youre selfish by nature im not sure i can even explain it in a way which will make sense to be honest. Sometimes you just do things that arnt in your best interests because you recognise the pain someone is going through and you connect with that pain, and knowing and recognising that pain and how bad it feels you seek to take it away (where ever possible).

The reward does not always have to be in the form of material possessions. But it does have to be a chemical reward (Oxytocin, serotonin) that makes them feel good. Most acts are selfish acts.

I agree alot of acts are selfish, but i dont hold that an act of compassion is always selfishly motivated. Are people helping starving children in the 3rd world getting that warm, fuzzy, feel good feeling everyday? no, i imagine theyre exhausted, and depressed most of the time.
And in regards to the current topic, i certainly *dont* derive any chemical rush from not eating meat, you can get a far better endorphine rush by going jogging, or if you want a spot of dopamine - sex useally does the trick.

The next time that you are helping someone or doing a good deed I want you to think about the fact that you are being compassionate because it makes you feel good. Everyone is selfish in their own way. The only difference between you and me is the fact that we have a different subjective opinion about compassion.

I agree momentary acts, like slipping some money into a charity tin can be selfishly motivated, i think compassion is more likely to manifest in long term aspects of someones life rather than 'random acts of kindness'. You can easily play at being compassionate when its a momentary gesutre, whereas if youre dedicated to a worthy cause or helping someone long term its more likely that youre genuine in your apparent empathy.

By the way, are you a Buddhist?

No far from it actually, im practically a nihilist (idelogically speaking). Im not really down with aligning myself with any one system of thought.

 

[c7ityi_]

Im not really down with aligning myself with any one system of thought.

yea, sure you're not.

You sound like a sociopath, seek help.

you cant say that, it's mean.

I believe that morals and ethics are just chemical illusions.

you must be crazy or something... sure they're illusions, everything is, but that doesn't mean you can just go around killing people!!

I think the most important difference for vegetarians is the fact that plants don’t have cute faces.

no, it's because plants don't have emotions like animals!!!!!!

I can bet you that some vegetarians would not want to eat a plant that evolved the ability to invoke the same feelings that we experience when we look at a cute animal or a baby.

yes, and those "plants" have already evolved, they're called animals!

The only thing that makes humans different from animals is the dexterity of our fingers and our large prefrontal cortex relative to the size of our body

no, the difference is that we're more intelligent and conscious of ourself!

It is the law of the jungle. It is not going to change just because you think it is immoral or unethical.

it has already changed. but the law of the jungle still remains. the law of the jungle is that there are no laws really... so we can do anything... even create our own laws... ethics... but...

it's not just our creation... the laws exist in our conscience... emotions...

But there is no realistic scenario that I can imagine in which it would be logical for me to torture someone.

lol, you don't have much imagination.

I don’t believe in the concept of good and evil.

fool, just because they're concepts doesn't mean they don't exist.

I think this world would be a much better place if we were all guided by logic instead of our emotions.

the mind is not greater than the heart.

 

[q0101]

You sound like a sociopath, seek help.

You are not the first person to tell me that I sound like a sociopath. I wasn’t always this way. I became the man that I am today after reading a lot of information about neurochemistry, genetics, and computer programming. (Mostly things about artificial intelligence) I am not a scientist by trade, but I spend most of my time trying to think in an objective scientific way. It is difficult for most people to understand why I think the way that I do. Some of the things that I wrote would make sense to you if you tried to think without emotions and use logic and probability to make your decisions.

 

[spidergoat]

Animals do have feelings, emotions, and feel pain, which is why we when we want to eat one, it should be raised with love and killed quickly.

 

[heliocentric]

Of course they are important differences between plants and animals. I think the most important difference for vegetarians is the fact that plants don’t have cute faces.

whats cute abit a pig? theyre fecking ugly. Actually i think your argument applies far more to those who eat meat, ever noticed how 'we' never eat the pretty animals? hmmm

It is the law of the jungle. It is not going to change just because you think it is immoral or unethical.

I think theres definite potential for the natural order to change, social evolution has already over-taken genetic evolution in humans. The amount i know and am capable of in relation to a human alive 100,000 years of is staggering, but theres pretty much no genetic difference between us, the change thats occured has been purely implimented via society.
(feels himself about to go off on one about memes but stops himself just in time).
And who wants to live by a set of pre-determined instincts anyway? id much rather live by own set of laws than being a slave to the 'laws of nature'.

*sorry jumped on someone elses questions there...

 

[wsionynw]

Animals do have feelings, emotions, and feel pain, which is why we when we want to eat one, it should be raised with love and killed quickly.

True, but maybe you should change it to "need to eat one..." ??

 

[heliocentric]

yea, sure you're not.

 

[wsionynw]

You are not the first person to tell me that I sound like a sociopath. I wasn’t always this way. I became the man that I am today after reading a lot of information about neurochemistry, genetics, and computer programming. (Mostly things about artificial intelligence) I am not a scientist by trade, but I spend most of my time trying to think in an objective scientific way. It is difficult for most people to understand why I think the way that I do. Some of the things that I wrote would make sense to you if you tried to think without emotions and use logic and probability to make your decisions.

You bring to mind a future race of robots that have complete control of our planet, using, abusing and killing humans without hesitation because they can only think without emotion. Of course this is just sci-fi, but what else are you if you only consider reality in terms of logic and probability, a robot (a potentially dangerous robot at that).

 

[q0101]

no, the difference is that we're more intelligent and conscious of ourself!

Why do you think we are more intelligent? Do some research. Learn about the role that prefrontal cortex plays in intelligence. As for consciousness and self-awareness, I think we have a different opinion about what it is. I think it is nothing more than chemical reactions within the brain.

 

[c7ityi_]

people think there is a law of nature, and that that humans are somehow... separate from it. but... i think we're also part of nature. so if we feel that it's wrong to kill an animal just to eat it, then nature thinks that it's wrong to do that... we are nature... just a part of nature that has evolved a lot...

I became the man that I am today after reading a lot of information about neurochemistry, genetics, and computer programming.

don't read too much. it can make you stupid. you think you are a machine, and you think you're so tough.

Why do you think we are more intelligent?

look around, you idiot. you see any animals here writing on this forum, discussing if they should be eaten or not...

man, you've abandoned common sense and replaced it with illogical logic.

As for consciousness and self-awareness, I think we have a different opinion about what it is. I think it is nothing more than chemical reactions within the brain.

strange how chemical reactions can just become "consciousness", maybe you could explain a bit how that happens.

 

[wsionynw]

no, the difference is that we're more intelligent and conscious of ourself!
.

Many apes have been observed to be self aware, and very intelligent. It's well documented just how intelligent animals are, we humans just like to elevate ourselves to god like status in comparison to other animals, but we still eat, shit and breathe.

 

[heliocentric]

Logic isnt a life style choice, its just a word attached to when we *think* we're thinking without emotion. Taking the divisionism of logic vs emotions too seriously is just going to lead you down a series of blind allies.
Theyre really just terms we use to catagorise modes of thought and are shaky at best at trying to decern when one is occuring and not the other.

 

[q0101]

You bring to mind a future race of robots that have complete control of our planet, using, abusing and killing humans without hesitation because they can only think without emotion. Of course this is just sci-fi, but what else are you if you only consider reality in terms of logic and probability, a robot (a potentially dangerous robot at that).

Would it be logical for robots to attack and abuse us if we posed a threat to them? I don't think so. A peaceful co-existence is much more logical than the futuristic wars that you see in movies.

There is an area in the prefrontal cortex that is called the dorsolateral region. It plays a role in things like mathematics and long term planning. It helps us make the logical decisions that I like so much.

 

[Athelwulf]

Roman, are you reading this thread, and will you answer my question? Do you make a distinction between a viable fetus and a non-viable one?

 

[wsionynw]

Would it be logical for robots to attack and abuse us if we posed a threat to them? I don't think so. A peaceful co-existence is much more logical than the futuristic wars that you see in movies.

There is an area in the prefrontal cortex that is called the dorsolateral region. It plays a role in things like mathematics and long term planning. It helps us make the logical decisions that I like so much.

Sure, but I was talking about a future where humans are slaves to robots (or aliens, or supermen), so it's in their interests to keep us alive but they do not hesitate to kill us or keep us in conditions we find painful and unpleasant since they do not have emotions.
It's similar to the way humans farm animals, breed them, keep them in conditions just about good enough to keep most of them alive, and kill them for food, fur, etc. This comes down to basic animal rights (human and non-human).

 

[heliocentric]

Sure, but I was talking about a future where humans are slaves to robots (or aliens, or supermen), so it's in their interests to keep us alive but they do not hesitate to kill us or keep us in conditions we find painful and unpleasant since they do not have emotions.
It's similar to the way humans farm animals, breed them, keep them in conditions just about good enough to keep most of them alive, and kill them for food, fur, etc. This comes down to basic animal rights (human and non-human).

Humanity is in desperate need of an alien invasion
How great would it be to see all the.. 'oh but we can do as we please with other beings, we're smarter and therefore have more worth' get harvested for body parts by aliens far smarter than them.
It would be the ultimate in living and dying by your own logic.