I believe I have disproven Atheism. Tell me, do you see any flaws?

[Kron]

If God exists out of time, how does he DO anything? No time flowing is equivalent to being in utter stasis.

So how did he create the universe?

How can he watch over us?

Also, your unstable reality concept is flawed. Why can't you assume that the universe popped out of nowhere in a moment of instability and then reamins stable forevermore? Hasn't your extra-temporal god popped out of nowhere?

 

[Jadebrain_Prime]

To (Q): You seem to assume that I have not acknowledged these posts. I do try to answer all of these posts as much as I can, but this is actually the first forum I actively participated in, so I'm really not accustomed to this. Now who's next? Ah, yes. Cris.
To Cris: I wasn't trying to imply that time itself had a beginning, rather I was trying to say that all that is in time needs a beginning from which its existence will travel aross the time dimension in the direction that time flows in. I'm not really good at being clear with what I say, though.
To One Raven: You are clearly assuming that I just imagined all of this. The term "outside of time" refers to anything that exists without change, including beginning or end, as well as existing in such a way that would let it do things to what is in time. In an outside time existence, however, to the entity that is changing something in time, let's say that the entity wants to make a change inside of time at 1000 BC, and another change at 2000 AD. Even though in our realm, those two events happened far apart, to the entity that made those events happen in the first place, there is no difference at all between 1000 BC and 2000 AD. That is because everything outside of time, like I said many times before, is all simultaneous and eternal.
To Tyler: By "in time," I essentially mean "controlled by time."

 

[one_raven]

Let me see if I have this right...

So God, being "outside of time" he is an Eternal being that is overlooking all of existence and everything that has happened or will eventually happen, and has control over these things.
Essentially, it is not God that is static, it is OUR EXISTENCE that is static from his point of view, since everything is simultaneous.
We aren't actually DOING anything, rather we have the perception that we are doing things.
Everything that has happened, is happening now, or will happen is currently there in existence, for God to tweak with, if he so chooses, and our conscious mind is simply experiencing one of these "frames" at a time, because we are not capable of seeing it all at once from the "outside", as God is.

Kind of like God is editing a movie, and he can see all the single frames simultaneously.
Time is the motor that is spinning the movie reels.
We are the light that runs through one frame at a time.
Our perception of existence is what is displayed on the screen.

Is that the idea?

 

[(Q)]

To (Q): You seem to assume that I have not acknowledged these posts. I do try to answer all of these posts as much as I can, but this is actually the first forum I actively participated in, so I'm really not accustomed to this.

Then, you shouldn't have asked about flaws, because you aren't listening to those who point them out.

 

[TheVisitor]

I know that you never said only a being can exist outside of time. I am taking your assumption that a first cause can exist outside of time and pointing out that there is nothing about existing out of time that makes the first cause an intentioned being.

I am suggesting that if you accept that a first cause can exist out of time, then that first cause could very well not be a God, but an inanimate force.

Therefore your theory has a huge hole in it that you fail to explain.

I hope you don't take my self-congratulatory comment personally, but in the spirit of friendly competition that exists here.

Not to sound like I'm sticking up for Rokkon, but I've already explained all this.
A being or anything for that mater....speaking of which.....would a spirit be constrained to the laws of physics that apply to mater even?
Something outside of time would become static.

The bible already hints at this.
After you die, you can't change.
Various level or dimensions that aren't completely outside time, just operating or vibrating at different rates.
Heaven and Hell are not completely outside time.
God is said not to change, but may exist in a static realm as a whole and be here at the same time.
Paul mentions being "caught up", in a heaven that had more than one level.

According to the scriptures, people caught up into "heavenly" realms to catch spiritual revelation are said to have been "quickened"

All this implies the intelligence that authored the bible knew exactly what we are observing and the more we understand about physics the more it proves that.
Some people will refuse to admit it, and the bible says why that is also.

The errors that are commonly pointed out....ie: "the world is flat" ect... are errors of interpretation, not the scriptures themselves.

The more I look into this the more it proves the existence of God and I really didn't think that was possible.
Thanks guys.
Thats what I like about this site.
These "discussions" we have cause me to dig down and investigate issues from someone else's point of view and learn, sometimes whether I win the argument or not.

 

[Enterprise-D]

Well lets see...

-No "personal accounts"
-No "Blogs"
-No reference of "Authorities"
-No crunching "numbers"

Can I use more than one finger to type?
Do I need to have your proof certified and mailed FED-X, UPS....?
Just what exactly will you take as proof then?

Asked and answered already. Possible proofs: Extended real-time space telescope sighting of heaven, irrefutable physical appearance, medical examination, an interview with Oprah even?

Personal accounts/Blogs can be easily made up.
I never said don't reference authorities, I said "appeal". Referencing authorities are common, however appealing to them simply via power of name is irrelevant. Their WORKS must be provable.
I never said don't crunch numbers, I simply added numbers to the "appeal" phrase to indicate that a thousand people can be crazy at the same time. The number of people that like to believe has no bearing on actual truth.

It seems to me your narrowing the field so small because your afraid someone might just prove there is a God, and you know you'll have to go and make right everything to everyone you've ever wronged to free your conscious.

I'm afraid of nothing, because I'm a moral person without the guidance of the bible. What we are trying to tell you Visitor is that without evidence it is illogical to sell your life to a compendium of stories, and politically motivated folks who use it to garner power.

Thats as obvious as the nose on your face friend, or is it fiend?
I smell fear.

Fiend if you like

(Just kidding).....But look kid, I've been around this block a few times before, and can recognize the attitude thats not ready to listen to reason, no mater what.
I think I'm probably just wasting my virtual breath here.
I could provide examples, and tie together the shoestrings of the Milky Way for you....
But I think I would be wasting my time and yours until your attitude takes a change so why don't you just read what I've already posted the last few days and get back to me.

(Not).....

It is amazing to me that theists accuse others of attitude, when they are the ones unwilling to listen to logic.

Fortunately, I don't have that kind of attitude. Tempting, but no.

Yeah you do, you've cast me as wrong already.

Let me be the one to make the first gesture of faith.
I'll go out on a limb here and give a serious response at the risk of having this olive branch cracked over my head.

LOL witty

I said earlier;
-There are places where people can exist and yet the place where God exists as still being "higher still" and out of sight from even there.
-Also that God is described as a Spirit.
-And maybe not only this world is moving through time at a certain rate, but other dimensions exist which are moving at other rates, which compared to this might seem "forever" but are not completely static.

What makes you think that you've solved the mystery of multiverses simply by saying God exists? You're using current speculation of time flow, multiverses and possibly chaos theory to fit your own beliefs. Whereas I do not accept anything on blind faith or because a big and ominous number of theys said so. If a god appears at my door and goes "Whaazaaaap" then I'd be inclined to know that they physically exist.

(After that there's the question of deserving of worship ... buuuuut that's another thread)

There is a audio available of someone who went beyond the "curtain of time" in 1955. (Verbatum of audio tape in text)
http://www.biblebelievers.org/ltime.htm

There is a video available of a guy who died and went there in 2005.
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-2433471460463354645

These describe many key elements the same.
Also I personally had a Near Death Experience earlier in 2006, from a head injury that put me in a coma on life support.
Yes, I said head injury....don't even go there.
For a lot of that you can click on my handle above...TheVisitor.... and read the posts I've typed on this subject the last fews days.
I hope some of this can help you.

Curtain of time??? Hallucinatory.
I won't go there, you said head injury first.

As for video: Do you believe John Travolta is an angel? How bout god looking like Morgan Freeman? Hmmm....maybe pre-recorded video is no longer as believable as it might have been when actors and special effects weren't as advanced?

 

[TheVisitor]

Let me see if I have this right...

So God, being "outside of time" he is an Eternal being that is overlooking all of existence and everything that has happened or will eventually happen, and has control over these things.
Essentially, it is not God that is static, it is OUR EXISTENCE that is static from his point of view, since everything is simultaneous.
We aren't actually DOING anything, rather we have the perception that we are doing things.
Everything that has happened, is happening now, or will happen is currently there in existence, for God to tweak with, if he so chooses, and our conscious mind is simply experiencing one of these "frames" at a time, because we are not capable of seeing it all at once from the "outside", as God is.

Kind of like God is editing a movie, and he can see all the single frames simultaneously.
Time is the motor that is spinning the movie reels.
We are the light that runs through one frame at a time.
Our perception of existence is what is displayed on the screen.

Is that the idea?

Reading that just about sent chills down my spine...
You hit it pretty good.
Keeping what you just said in mind, you can see that is hinted at all through the scriptures, especially in the New Testament where the types and shadows laid down in the natural are put into the spiritual context.

The real story is between the lines.

 

[Enterprise-D]

How about if I screw with Rokkon's first postulation a bit.

Given that Rokkon is assuming much about time and space, since the relevant experts have not definitively explained time or space...

There is a premise being bandied about that time actually does not exist. Time is merely a perception of the brain that allows us to perceive one route of a sequence of events out of an endless stream of events all occuring simultaneously. This means that theoretically we can interact with the past. Or theoretically something can exist independant of time since it is a perception rather than a "force" or "limiter" if you will.

Whether this helps to pose a theory that a god can exist "outside of time" or not (which it DOES by the by)...accepting this theory completely unravels Rokkon's first premise of linear, "forward-flowing" time. Hence unravels his steps toward his conclusion that he thinks "disproved athiesm".

Theists however, are notorious for quickly grabbing onto concepts and switching tangents that will support their own beliefs, let's sit back and see what happens.

 

[Athelwulf]

Just for fun, let us just assume, for the sake of discussion, that atheism is in fact false.

Now then. Which deity or deities exist?

If atheism is incorrect, then theism is therefore correct. So now we're left with the question of which theistic stance is the correct one.

So which is it?!

 

[Athelwulf]

Sorry to point out the obvious, Spidergoat, but unpossible is not a word.

Using the same words over and over can be boring, so "unpossible" is good.

The word 'unpossible' communicates a sense that 'impossible' doesn't, I think. So although it's not really a word, it seems appropriate to coin it for discussion's sake.

 

[TheVisitor]

Just for fun, let us just assume, for the sake of discussion, that atheism is in fact false.

Now then. Which deity or deities exist?

If atheism is incorrect, then theism is therefore correct. So now we're left with the question of which theistic stance is the correct one.

So which is it?!

God is life, He's alive like the living water that when you drink from, you'll never thirst again, because that life is then you.
Not something stagnant, and corrupted into poison though it once contained life like water that was collected in some broken cistern.......like a system of men.
It's not in some dead religious organization of men, some counterfeit to the real, where the deceived try to get warm by a painted fire of some historical god from two thousand years ago.
It's a constantly improved upon and added too personal revelation thats alive and growing within you until it takes you right out of here into another dimension.

Enoch walked with God...and was not.

 

[SkinWalker]

God is life, He's alive like the living water that when you drink from, you'll never thirst again, because that life is then you.
Not something stagnant, and corrupted into poison though it once contained life like water that was collected in some broken cistern.......like a system of men.
It's not in some dead religious organization of men, some counterfeit to the real, where the deceived try to get warm by a painted fire of some historical god from two thousand years ago.
It's a constantly improved upon and added too personal revelation thats alive and growing within you until it takes you right out of here into another dimension.

Enoch walked with God...and was not.

And yet you did not answer the question. Which of the thousands of extant and extinct human gods are genuine and which are false. Bear in mind that many of these gods are contradictory and most are completely different from one another.

The only meaningful attribute you've cared to assign to your god is a gender with the pronoun 'he' excluding all the female deities. What is your evidence that your god is of the male gender?

 

[TheVisitor]

-As for video: Do you believe John Travolta is an angel?
-What makes you think that you've solved the mystery of multiverses simply by saying God exists?
-You're using current speculation of time flow, multiverses and possibly chaos theory to fit your own beliefs.
-Whereas I do not accept anything on blind faith or because a big and ominous number of theys said so.

To answer the first one " Do you believe John Travolta is an angel?"
I wouldn't know.....it's not my area.

Now lets get serious, shall we...?

I am not a scientist, it's more of a hobby.....but, you said I'm using current speculation of time flow, multiverses and possibly chaos theory to "fit my own beliefs".

I wouldn't know about such things....I've been too busy for the last 25 years studying something I saw was real: the scriptures, but not in some blind faith version of a political or religious organization.
What I've found through personal revelation proves those institutions are hijacking the truth for their own purposes...that's true like you said.
But that doesn't make the scriptures any less real because of this, it only reveals the very reason for what I've found...
God hid the truth, revelation and knowledge between the lines so those who aren't "caught up" can't find it.
Remember Jesus said;
"I thank thee father that thou hast hid these things from the eyes of the wise and prudent and revealed them unto babes such as are willing to learn"

If what I said sounds like someones speculation or theories, that may lend more weight to what I'm saying because I've never read those theories and didn't "use them to fit my beliefs"
It's the other way around.

To see the truth.....God, you have to become part of the truth.
What does that make you then....?
"The water of life - once drank from, you will never thirst again"
"And in that day you will know I am in the Father and the Father is in Me, I in You and You in Me."

This is supernatural and involves allowing your "self" to die in a voluntary implantation of another "life form", leaving your body as the "host".
"Those who try to save their life, shall lose it.....but those who are willing to give their life for the Word of God shall save it."

You have upon you from birth to begin with the nature of those "fallen ones" that were cast down here long ago.
There was a war in heaven......
He said He would set us down to meet at a table in the presense of our enemies.

When you are born again, you are "quickened" to life and then able to see the kingdom of God.
That spiritual life that begins then to grow within you is the real you that would have been had not the state of man as "hosts" for God been corrupted through the mixing of our bloodline with "something else" long ago.
It the real story behind the "fall" of man

As babies aren't born fully mature, there is still a learning process involved.
The Earth was allowed to fall into the hands of the enemy, to become a cosmic proving ground, for child training if you will....training for the Sons of God.

"Babes such as are willing to learn"...babes...babies...Sons of God.
You get it?

Sound like science fiction?
It gets better.
Haven't you ever heard, the truth is stranger than fiction.?
Someone knew what they were talking about.

 

[spidergoat]

Flaw:

Contrary to the popular atheistic belief that every particle of matter, energy, and other whatnot in the universe had always been there...

Actually, science reveals that matter is energy is space is time (another way to say this is that everything is a form of space/time), so it's not necessary that every "particle" exist forever, only that something exist, and that the total be equal to everything that exists now, since nothing is ever created or destroyed. (a minor point)

More impointedly, the principle of cause and effect implies that there was no first cause. This doesn't contradict the big bang theory, since the big bang was only an event that formed the universe we see today, where everything isn't all in one place, we don't know how long this state existed or how it came to be.

Here is the definition from wikipedia:
The Big Bang is the scientific theory that the universe emerged from a tremendously dense and hot state about 13.7 billion years ago.

Another flaw:

Only when something exists outside of time can it exist forever.

It should be obvious that "forever" is a function of time.

 

[one_raven]

The Visitor,
You say you are searching for truth through the Bible.
Why?
If you start from understanding that we know nothing of truth, and begin to search for unadulterated truth, why assume that the Bible contains it at all?
On what authority to you take that the Bible is the book to decrypt to find this universal, fundamental truth?

 

[one_raven]

But you did say, "I've been too busy for the last 25 years studying something I saw was real: the scriptures"...
What made you think they are "real"?
Because you also said, "but not in some blind faith version of a political or religious organization".
So I assume you must have some reasoning to believe that the Bible is the truth.
I am curious what that reasoning is.

 

[TheVisitor]

The Visitor,
You say you are searching for truth through the Bible.
Why?
If you start from understanding that we know nothing of truth, and begin to search for unadulterated truth, why assume that the Bible contains it at all?
On what authority to you take that the Bible is the book to decrypt to find this universal, fundamental truth?

I never said I was still searching....I said;

"To see the truth.....God, you have to become part of the truth.
What does that make you then....?"
"The water of life - once drank from, you will never thirst again"
"And in that day you will know I am in the Father and the Father is in Me, I in You and You in Me."

By what authority?
My that has a familiar ring to it.
Where have I heard that before?
We all have our part to play in this life.
You're very words have exposed the casting.

 

[Cris]

Rokkon,

I wasn't trying to imply that time itself had a beginning, rather I was trying to say that all that is in time needs a beginning from which its existence will travel aross the time dimension in the direction that time flows in. I'm not really good at being clear with what I say, though.

You are still imagining time to be independent of the objects. Time is not a medium but simply a property of existence. Something doesn’t flow through time; that is as much nonsense as saying one travels through “length" or "width”.

All 4 dimensions are local to an object and are relative. For example if object A is the same size as object B but they are a distance apart then each will appear smaller to the other. However if B were traveling away from A at say near the speed of light then B would observe that time for A was going extremely fast whereas A would observe the time for B was going very slowly. This is an example of the relativistic nature of time.

I think you are trapped in the science fiction concept of traveling through time and that is just simple fiction. You are not being very clear about your concept because you really don’t understand what you are saying. That is the nature of gibberish – once examined more closely its nonsense become clearer.

To say that something is outside of time is the same as saying something is outside of length, width or breadth. It is meaningless gibberish.

 

[one_raven]

By what authority?
My that has a familiar ring to it.
Where have I heard that before?
Do you really want to hear the answer to that question...
We all have our part to play in this life.
You're very words have exposed the casting.

I don't know what assumptions you are making about me, but why not share them rather than playing some silly game of "I know your type".

I asked "by what authority" meaning, by what means do you come to that conclusion.
I was looking for something like, "by my own authority based on the following reasoning..."
I was not trying to back you into a corner or challenge you.
I was simply curious what you based your self-assured opinion on.

Rather you ignored the question, jumped to conclusions about me and decided to speak at me in a placating manner.

If you'd like to have a discussion, by all means, discuss.
If you want to play games, I'll not bother.

 

[Cris]

TheVisitor,

Sound like science fiction?
It gets better.
Haven't you ever heard, the truth is stranger than fiction.?
Someone knew what they were talking about.

Perhaps but then you cannot show that your beliefs are not fiction, can you? Or are you trying to imply that anything bizarre we can imagine must be true?