HW Help...Is Reconciliation Necessary?

[cosmictraveler]

I was raised Catholic, so to me it is necessary.

I can't understand why anyone that believes in their god would need an intermediary to talk to that god. Why is it that people think that someone else can do the talking for you? Why is it that god doesn't punish you but some person has that responsibility, seems very wrong for some reason. If you want to do something wrong only your god should know about it not just regular individuals that come and go with the church. How it is anyone can communicate better with your god than you is impossible for me to fathom and I wouldn't belong to any organization that makes it that way. I don't believe in god by the way so I don't go around talking to anyone about my private affairs.

 

[Maharajah]

To me, I see confession/reconcillation as an "easy out"
Sure you are owning up to your sins, but only in an environment where you know no one else will find out/care, except GOD (and your priest who is supposedly just his instrument), who of course, will forgive you no matter what you do, as long as you repent...

There seems to be contradiction in this area of catholicism in terms of Mortal Sins, as I was always told they are the unforgiveable type, perhaps this is just some religious "grey area" ::shrug::

I believe you need to live with your actions EVERY DAY of your life, to remind you why they are wrong to do, and if at some point in your life you decide those things are not wrong, you will not be mindlessly avoiding activities which are morally fit for you. To confess these sins, is to let go of them, put them out of your mind. I do not see that as taking true responsibility... if I can do anything and my God will forgive me no matter what, what is the true consequence? Without consequences, can there be law? Me thinks not.

Also, is God not omnipotent? Therefore he should already be well aware of your actions, and reciting them to his instrument seems a little redundant to me. Can you not ask forgiveness in your every day prayers? And is there not a portion of catholic mass where sins are forgiven, I hazily remember this somewhere near the beginning of the mass. Is this why confessions are given on Saturday? lol.

 

[(Q)]

Nothing justifies your anger and hatred.

Your only seeing anger and hatred because what I say conflicts with your religious beliefs. That is perfectly normal. Your beliefs are being attacked, and you are taking it personally.

 

[Adstar]

I think you have correctly identified that we are coming from slightly different angles on the word 'confession'

My understanding of confession is having the humility to admit that what you did was wrong.

Yes. But God already knows if we know that what we have done is wrong. So telling God how we feel about it is a waste of time. God does not need our verbal confession to know what we have done and our attitude to what we have done. God seeks the hearts and knows the thoughts of man.

When my kids are naughty, I know they are naughty but I still want them to come to me and say sorry. When they say sorry, I ask them what it is they are sorry for because I want to make sure they understand what it is they are doing that is not benefiting them. When they know what they did wrong, I can be assured that they know right from wrong and so when they are naughty again I can refer them back to the point where they said sorry last time. Doesn't matter how many times they are naughty as long as my message is consistent i.e. that sort of behaviour is not benefitting you. Eventually I can expect they will change their behaviour because each time they come to me they will be less and less protected from the consequences of their actions. As long as they are under my roof I have some control as to the extent of damage the consequences of their actions will exact. As they get older I expect them to have learnt fully and therefore I am less inclined to protect them as it will only be the full consequences of their actions that will make them stop.

You have gone beyond confession here into correction here. Maybe you are assuming God is like a human parent? Having limited awareness and needing verbal confession.

Yes they live under a state of grace but should they continue being naughty so that the grace increases relative to the naughtiness?

No. I have never said they should. But they will continue to sin until the end of their lives. So confession and correction can only reduce sin not eliminate it.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Hi Water

No we do not love ourselves but we understand ourselves only too well.

Maybe YOU understand yourself well. But I assure you not everyone does understand herself or himself well.

I understand myself because Gods word reveals to me what i am. I know that some do not know themselves that’s one reason i come here. Of course there are some here who know themselves very well. Some in here have hurt your feelings and expressed with pride their enjoyment at being able to inflict emotional pain. They wear it as a badge of honor and post 's when they realize they have scored.

We forgive ourselves because God has forgiven us.

Again, not true. Some people never forgive themselves, they kill themselves, devoured by guilt.

When i said We forgive ourselves i was talking about Christians. I was not talking about all human beings.

Yes millions have thought the same way. It's Just to hard

It is too hard. Would you like to know how many times I felt like killing myself because I could not experience God as I was "supposed" to?

Now this is something i come across a lot water, people thinking they must "experience" something? What is it that you think you are supposed to experience? Is it like a cocaine high?

"tell me what to do priest man", "tell me what to do imam," "tell me what to do guru". Placing their eternal destinations in the hands of men.


A priest may correctly assess the person's situation, and send them to the counselor, or doctor, or employment office, or some other completely worldly, but necessary concern -- but which may help the person on their way and make the crucial difference.

You are taking human sanity for granted.

Oh yes many priest, pastors, imams, reverends and monks have a lot of good guidance to help people in this life. Many of them even do psychology courses to help them help people suffering psychological illness. But that has nothing to do with what i am talking about. I am not talking about their ability to help people find a way to worldly benefits. I am talking of their ability to guide people to the Way of Eternal Salvation.

Trusting people to give you the right advice on what doctor to see or where to get employment is one thing. But trusting them to give you the key to eternal life is quite another.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Hapsburg]

You are teaching nothing but hate and anger.

Wait, isn't that what Christianity does? Ever heard of the Crusades, the conquest of North America, Inquisitions ,etc.?

 

[water]

Nothing justifies your anger and hatred.

Your only seeing anger and hatred because what I say conflicts with your religious beliefs. That is perfectly normal. Your beliefs are being attacked, and you are taking it personally.

I'm seeing anger and hatred because this is what you give.

You are not attacking my beliefs. You don't even know what they are, you never bothered to ask.

 

[water]

Wait, isn't that what Christianity does? Ever heard of the Crusades, the conquest of North America, Inquisitions ,etc.?

If you think that what you are saying above is about Christianity, then I think you need to learn first what Christianity is.

 

[c20H25N3o]

Yes. But God already knows if we know that what we have done is wrong. So telling God how we feel about it is a waste of time. God does not need our verbal confession to know what we have done and our attitude to what we have done. God seeks the hearts and knows the thoughts of man.

Jesus approved of the tax collectors attitude here, Jesus didnt believe it was a waste of his time ...

Luke 18:9-14

"Two men went up into the temple to pray;
one was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector.
The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this:

‘God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.’
But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn’t even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying,

‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted." (web)

You have gone beyond confession here into correction here. Maybe you are assuming God is like a human parent? Having limited awareness and needing verbal confession.

The only reason i need the verbal confession from my kids is so that I know they understand what it is they are doing wrong so they know which direction to 'not' walk in. I already know what direction they should walk in but they must learn to do that of their own free will.

peace

c20

 

[water]

Adstar,

I understand myself because Gods word reveals to me what i am. I know that some do not know themselves that’s one reason i come here. Of course there are some here who know themselves very well. Some in here have hurt your feelings and expressed with pride their enjoyment at being able to inflict emotional pain. They wear it as a badge of honor and post 's when they realize they have scored.

Q has got the wrong one, but he doesn't even know it. Which I find very funny.

Now this is something i come across a lot water, people thinking they must "experience" something? What is it that you think you are supposed to experience? Is it like a cocaine high?

I don't know. "If you were experiencing God, then you would know it is God that you are experiencing" -- this is how such explanations tend to go. And then one might be put into a situation where God "is to be experienced", like a baptism -- and then nothing happens, nothing that one could qualify as "the experience of God".
The Bible doesn't seem to help on this at all either.

I really don't know. Some seem to have it all worked out so clearly.

Oh yes many priest, pastors, imams, reverends and monks have a lot of good guidance to help people in this life. Many of them even do psychology courses to help them help people suffering psychological illness. But that has nothing to do with what i am talking about. I am not talking about their ability to help people find a way to worldly benefits. I am talking of their ability to guide people to the Way of Eternal Salvation.

Trusting people to give you the right advice on what doctor to see or where to get employment is one thing. But trusting them to give you the key to eternal life is quite another.

I think a good priest will strive to make the person see the difference between the two. And encourage the person to rely on God for the key to eternal life, and not indulge the person having trust in the priest or some other clergy or lay for that.
Esp. at first, I can imagine that a newbie may automatically trust the priest with everything -- but I think the priest has to make the person aware of that, and teach them otherwise.

Granted, priests are not perfect people as well, and they might like to see how much trust believers put in them, and even encourage that. But this doesn't mean that all priest are like that.

 

[(Q)]

I'm seeing anger and hatred because this is what you give.

What you 'see' has been debated here, and it appears to be hallucinogenic in nature.

You are not attacking my beliefs. You don't even know what they are, you never bothered to ask.

So, you don't believe in gods?

 

[water]

Q,


No, I don't believe in gods.

Cervantes and I are laughing at you. I'm sorry.

 

[Adstar]

Jesus approved of the tax collectors attitude here, Jesus didnt believe it was a waste of his time ...

Luke 18:9-14

"Two men went up into the temple to pray;
one was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector.
The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this:

‘God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.’
But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn’t even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying,

‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted." (web)





The only reason i need the verbal confession from my kids is so that I know they understand what it is they are doing wrong so they know which direction to 'not' walk in. I already know what direction they should walk in but they must learn to do that of their own free will.

peace

c20

So you don't think God knows your every thought you have on what you have done? That’s amazing to me. You believe in God but you do not believe He knows the minds and thoughts of all men confessed or not. I cannot see any way to explain this to you other than the way i have done it. Of course God was pleased with the meekness of the tax collector and hated the pride of the pharisee but He knew their thoughts and attitudes before they expressed them.





All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Adstar,

Q has got the wrong one, but he doesn't even know it. Which I find very funny.

I don't find it funny. Tradgic, dumfounding maybe amazing, but it's not funny to me.

I don't know. "If you were experiencing God, then you would know it is God that you are experiencing" -- this is how such explanations tend to go. And then one might be put into a situation where God "is to be experienced", like a baptism -- and then nothing happens, nothing that one could qualify as "the experience of God".
The Bible doesn't seem to help on this at all either.

A sign a sign the disbelieving world seeks a sign but non will be given to them except the sign of Jonah. People who believe need no signs, they need no "experiences".

I really don't know. Some seem to have it all worked out so clearly.

They have had it worked out for them.

I think a good priest will strive to make the person see the difference between the two.

There are no good priests. No matter how genuine they are.

And encourage the person to rely on God for the key to eternal life, and not indulge the person having trust in the priest or some other clergy or lay for that.

The blind cannot lead the blind to eternity.

Esp. at first, I can imagine that a newbie may automatically trust the priest with everything -- but I think the priest has to make the person aware of that, and teach them otherwise.

If the priest it a true priest he will tell the person to trust the catholic church. A blind leader of the blind.

Granted, priests are not perfect people as well, and they might like to see how much trust believers put in them, and even encourage that. But this doesn't mean that all priest are like that.

Their personal intentions matter for nothing be the vain and prideful or if they are caring and helpful. They do not have the keys to eternal life because they owe their loyalty to a false church filled with lies against the will of God.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[c20H25N3o]

So you don't think God knows your every thought you have on what you have done?

I never said that. I was just saying that it is good to admit it and I would prefer to say that to God than to a catholic priest.

peace

c20

 

[(Q)]

water sez:

No, I don't believe in gods.

Originally posted by water:

I believe there is one God

 

[Cris]

Adstar,

People who believe need no signs, they need no "experiences".

That doesn't mean that what they believe is true. It is simply an irrational and highly error prone approach to decison making.

 

[water]

water sez:

No, I don't believe in gods.

I believe there is one God

Get your questions straight. You asked me whether I believed in gods, not whether I believed in God.

 

[Cris]

water,

Get your questions straight. You asked me whether I believed in gods, not whether I believed in God.

So from that we can assume that you believe in the existence of a god called God but not gods in general, is that correct? So that makes you, what, an atheistic theist?

That would indeed appear to accurately describe the immensely confused nature of your posts.

 

[water]

Adstar,

A sign a sign the disbelieving world seeks a sign but non will be given to them except the sign of Jonah. People who believe need no signs, they need no "experiences".

But how come they believe then?

They have had it worked out for them.
/.../
There are no good priests. No matter how genuine they are.
/.../
The blind cannot lead the blind to eternity.
/.../
If the priest it a true priest he will tell the person to trust the catholic church. A blind leader of the blind.
/.../
Their personal intentions matter for nothing be the vain and prideful or if they are caring and helpful. They do not have the keys to eternal life because they owe their loyalty to a false church filled with lies against the will of God.

Who is right? You or them?
You, too, act as if you have it all worked out.

What is a newbie to do?
And why do you put it against them when they give up on Christianity?

You may say God takes care of you. I see no such thing in my life, I would not venture to say that God takes care of me. You might say God does. I don't know. Should I believe your word? Why not Angelic Being's, or C20's, or Q's or Cris', or someone else's?

Bottomline: According to you, people aren't to be trusted in matters of God. But Jehovah doesn't speak to me.