Human Life and Sin

[Ivan Seeking]

My anthropic arguments are pretty weak, I think it's just the way it is.

That's not an answer. Heim Physics seemed to predict the values of the physical constants but has largely been dismissed as circular logic.

I don't think even the most advanced M-Theory or LQG models ever predicted or hoped to predict these values.

 

[Pinball1970]

Those are things god allegedly did. That doesn't define a god.

It is all we have to go off for the Biblical god. As far as I am concerned it is a description of a mythical creature so it is a moot point.

 

[gmilam]

Yes it is. That is how religion classically defines god. Look it up.

Those are minimum requirements. There are other such as "God is love".

They may be attributes of this alleged thing. Then again a lot of those could apply to gravity too. Are you saying god is gravity?

Whenever someone asks me if I believe in god, I ask them to define god. The answers are usually, "You know... god, dude." Whenever they do try, the responses are scattershot. Some people have told me that god created the universe, others have said that god IS the universe, yet others have told me that god is love... (So love created the universe?) Anyway, it appears to me that there are many concepts of this mythical being/creature/force. It might help to know which one we're dealing with.

 

[James R]

kx000:

You ignored the most important question I asked you: how do you know that any of this stuff you believe about God is real and/or true?

Instead, you just made some more claims that you're unable to support, and you contradicted yourself in the process.

God does not let you suffer.

Clearly, he/she/it does. And not just me. Lots of people. If I stub my toe, your God does nothing to relieve my suffering. When a bomb kills an innocent child, your God does nothing to help the child or to prevent the suffering of the family.

IMHO gnostics are amoral, and there is no way I believe the problem of evil.

You don't believe there is a problem of evil, because you say that your God is evil. Is that correct?

God hates us, that is why we suffer.

i.e. your God is an evil God.

Tell me, then. Why do you worship your God? Why would anybody want to worship something that hates them?

God is not absent, you are being punished for the sins of man.

Your God is punishing me for sins that are not mine? Well, that fits in with your whole "God is evil" thing, I suppose. Arbitrary punishment for manufactured crimes would be right up an evil deity's alley, I guess.

All I am saying is God is not impossible.

Fine. But there must be something that has convinced you that not only is God possible, but that it is actual.

What convinced you?

I am a thinking person...

Great! Then you must have some good reasons for believing your evil God is real.

What are they? If you tell me, maybe you'll convince me, too.

Do you not stop to think dis-belief is the reason people suffer, and since you will it on yourself, God is not in your life.

You're nuts if you think that I will suffering on anybody, least of all myself. Who would will suffering upon themselves?

I'm willing to have God in my life, just as soon as you convince me that your God is real. But if he is evil, like you say, I won't worship him.

What convinced you that this God of yours is real?

Which God is it? Is it the God of the bible? Is it your own special God?

 

[James R]

Ivan:

As far as I know, there is no scientific test for a god so science cannot address the issue. It is unreasonable to demand evidence when no one say what that evidence would be.

Do you believe in a god, without any scientific evidence? If so, why? What convinced you that the god is real? The anecdotal evidence?

That matter can exist is indirect evidence of intelligent design. We have no theory that can explain how the physical constants have values that allow for matter and all that exists. As far as we know, it is magic. True?

The fact that matter exists is not evidence that it was designed, directly or indirectly.

Nor is the fact that we lack a theory to explain the physical constants evidence that a god exists. That is a "god of the gaps" argument that you're trying to run: if we can't currently explain something (scientifically) then god must have done it. It's a fallacy, a false dichotomy.

 

[foghorn]

Great! Then you must have some good reasons for believing your evil God is real.
What are they? If you tell me, maybe you'll convince me, too.

"Don't turn to anyone" search inward.
So, if Kxooo tells you that you are responsible for your own suffering, tell him to piss off and smoke more weed.

When choosing your belief only search inward. Don't turn to anyone, not the church, not your mother, and not your teacher.

Kx000 says in "his" own thread titled 'Sup niggas'

Im white. Smoke weed every day.

But, is 'he' really black?
It seems to 'him' that white and black matter here with 'his' OP in that thread.
https://www.sciforums.com/threads/sup-niggas.108875/
Why is that, is 'he' a racist?

 

[Pinball1970]

That's not an answer. Heim Physics seemed to predict the values of the physical constants but has largely been dismissed as circular logic.

I don't think even the most advanced M-Theory or LQG models ever predicted or hoped to predict these values.

I do not have that answer and neither does the scientific community.
Plenty of unknown things to find out that seem mysterious now that could be illuminated in the future.
Given your credentials, I do not need to point this out to you

 

[kx000]

kx000:

You ignored the most important question I asked you: how do you know that any of this stuff you believe about God is real and/or true?

belief is the truth, or life goes to natural hell. If you don’t believe in life, you are literally hopeless. Faith and hope are like Fire and the stars in the sky. I’m kind of banking on respect and love, and faith won’t be genocided by evil gnostics, and then it can do its job?

Clearly, he/she/it does. And not just me. Lots of people. If I stub my toe, your God does nothing to relieve my suffering. When a bomb kills an innocent You don't believe there is a problem of evil, because you say that your God is evil. Is that correct?

They are you own sins. Just to hurt someone else means you must suffer proportionately, or God is evil. He can let his creation suffer because of its own actions, but truly mankind was tempted by the devil, and that is why the angels fell from Heaven. But to hurt some means you suffer, if you ignore this you are evil.

Tell me, then. Why do you worship your God? Why would anybody want to worship something that hates them?

God doesn’t have to hate me since I suffer by nature and am alright with it. I believe in life, and then once in all time I fight this thing called the devil. I guess I have this thing where belief, and forgiveness will do their job and go to Heaven, and they become higher spirits, like belief in faith.

Your God is punishing me for sins that are not mine?

Well, that fits in with your whole "God is evil" thing, I suppose. Arbitrary punishment for manufactured crimes would be right up an evil deity's alley, I guess

God does not punish anyone. He is simply passive and if you hurt some one you can not be happy. Ahimsa is not enough, it must be total non-violence aswell.

Fine. But there must be something that has convinced you that not only is God possible, but that it is actual.

Because the spoken word of God lives in me. There must be a belief or nature is tarnished, and since there is hope, and I can make certain wishes, including euphoria.

You're nuts if you think that I will suffering on anybody, least of all myself. Who would will suffering upon themselves?

Then end your good and evil here and now. It is the simples thing believe in light and make the negative spirit go away with equanimity, and the resulting karma will end your suffering as long as you are perfectly moral.

Unless you rebel against God you don’t have go to hades, but if you do rebel you were the satan all along.

 

[DaveC426913]

If you don’t believe in life, you are literally hopeless.

Because the spoken word of God lives in me.

Then end your good and evil here and now.

Definitely preaching now.



"Behaviour that may get you banned:

Propaganda, preaching, proselytising or evangelising"

Examples include preaching one’s own religion as the only true religion...proclaiming that one group is morally superior to another. The signature of propaganda is that it consists largely of a member expressing strongly held personal beliefs about things that can’t be proven"

https://www.sciforums.com/threads/sciforums-site-rules.142880/

 

[James R]

kx000:

belief is the truth, or life goes to natural hell.

??
Is it possible for somebody to believe something and it not to be true? If so, then belief is not necessarily truth. Right? What do you think?

And, according to you, if belief isn't truth, then (all?) life goes to natural hell? Does that mean all life is going to hell, then?

Which hell?

If you don’t believe in life, you are literally hopeless.

Who doesn't believe in life?

Faith and hope are like Fire and the stars in the sky.

Life is like a grapefruit.

I’m kind of banking on respect and love, and faith won’t be genocided by evil gnostics, and then it can do its job?

I don't think "genocide" means what you think it means. Maybe look it up.

They are you own sins.

Suppose I'm caught in an earthquake and I die. How is that due to my sins?

Just to hurt someone else means you must suffer proportionately, or God is evil.

Does your God make sure that sinners suffer proportionately, then? How?

He can let his creation suffer because of its own actions, but truly mankind was tempted by the devil, and that is why the angels fell from Heaven.

But obviously he knew his creation would suffer because of its own actions when he created it. So, it follows that he created it because he wanted it to happen. Right?

But to hurt some means you suffer, if you ignore this you are evil.

We all ignore hurt all the time, especially when it occurs to other people or animals that are far from us. We don't seem to suffer anything extra because of that. Nor, I think, does it necessarily make us evil. What do you think?

God doesn’t have to hate me since I suffer by nature and am alright with it.

So, you weren't including yourself when you wrote "God hates us, that is why we suffer."

You're the exception to that rule because you suffer "by nature"? What makes you special?

Also, doesn't this contradict your contention that all suffering is because God hates us? What is this suffering by nature thing, then?

I believe in life, and then once in all time I fight this thing called the devil.

How do you fight this thing called the devil?

Why do you need a devil, when you already have a hate-filled God to worship?

I guess I have this thing where belief, and forgiveness will do their job and go to Heaven, and they become higher spirits, like belief in faith.

Who gets to go to heaven? Why would God send anybody to heaven if he hates us all?

God does not punish anyone.

Previously you wrote "you are being punished for the sins of man."

Did you change your mind since yesterday?

He is simply passive and if you hurt some one you can not be happy.

If God is passive, then he isn't doing any punishing for the sins of man. Right?

Ahimsa is not enough, it must be total non-violence as well.

I don't understand the distinction you're trying to make?

Have you ever used an antiseptic spray - say a surface cleaner or mould remover? How does that fit in with your Ahimsa? Is not all life sacred?

Because the spoken word of God lives in me.

I don't know what that means. Can you explain?

I assume you're not saying that literally there's a voice inside you from God. So why "spoken word"? Did God speak to you? When? How?

There must be a belief or nature is tarnished, and since there is hope, and I can make certain wishes, including euphoria.

Why does nature remaining untarnished depend on you having a belief? I don't understand.

What is the source of this hope you speak of? Your God, who, you say is passive, or actively punishing you for the sins of man (I'm not sure which it is), hardly seems like the sort of thing that would give you hope.

Then end your good and evil here and now.

What? And do nothing at all?

It is the simples thing believe in light and make the negative spirit go away with equanimity, and the resulting karma will end your suffering as long as you are perfectly moral.

This is even more confusing.

Is it a God who actively punished people for the sins of man, or is there karma, where the universe has some kind of magical, automatic proportional response to whatever we do? Is it a passive God, like you say, and karma is the real active force in the world? What need is there for God, in that case?

Can you explain?

Unless you rebel against God you don’t have go to hades, but if you do rebel you were the satan all along.

God won't do anything. He's passive, according to you. Right?

What would cause me to go to hades?

What would rebelling against God look like, anyway? How do you know what God wants? What does your passive God want, anyway?

 

[Pinball1970]

Those are things god allegedly did. That doesn't define a god.

Depends what time and culture you happen to be in, they come in all manner of shapes sizes in space and time or somehow outside it.

Jesus kind of made sense to me as a kid but I don't think god ever did even when I was a theist.

 

[kx000]

kx000:

??
Is it possible for somebody to believe something and it not to be true? If so, then belief is not necessarily truth. Right? What do you think?

And, according to you, if belief isn't truth, then (all?) life goes to natural hell? Does that mean all life is going to hell, then?[/QUOTE]

Belief is both truth, AND hope.

Suppose I'm caught in an earthquake and I die. How is that due to my sins?

Because Adam chose the tree of good and evil over the tree of immortality. The apple man consumed makes human being partial sinners, and human life is impermanent, unless you believe in Jesus as your lord and savior.

But obviously he knew his creation would suffer because of its own actions when he created it. So, it follows that he created it because he wanted it to happen. Right?

Adam sinned because of the serpent, and human had free will, and satan tempted it.

You're the exception to that rule because you suffer "by nature"? What makes you special?

I suffer piously. Even though I suffer I can see through it and still believe in God.

Also, doesn't this contradict your contention that all suffering is because God hates us? What is this suffering by nature thing, then?

Suffering is because of the devil, and it causes us to be un sanctified. But when you hurt people you can’t feel pleasure and God will keep you on earth until you are pure. And if you rebel against Gods law, God may hate you.

How do you fight this thing called the devil?

With omnipotence.

Why do you need a devil, when you already have a hate-filled God to worship?

I see that you are the hate filled one.

Who gets to go to heaven? Why would God send anybody to heaven if he hates us all?

Jesus is a forgiver

Previously you wrote "you are being punished for the sins of man."

Did you change your mind since yesterday?

If God is passive, then he isn't doing any punishing for the sins of man. Right?

No punishment only divine karma.

Have you ever used an antiseptic spray - say a surface cleaner or mould remover? How does that fit in with your Ahimsa? Is not all life sacred?

I can be passive, but if people choose to harm they go to hell for a short time. I am non-violent to them , but they hate me for it…

 

[James R]

kx000:

Your theology is a bit self-contradictory.

On the one hand, you claim that we're all being punished by your God because of Adam's original sin. But on the other hand, you claim that God doesn't punish anybody and that there's another force in the universe called "karma", which somehow balances up the scales of good and evil.

Which is it? Are you a Christian or a Hindu? Or do you like to mix and match your religion? Your current synthesis doesn't seem to be coherent, to me.

Is sin a problem in the world? The Christians think it is. Hindus, not so much.

Christians believe that we all live just once. Then, God judges us and we go to heaven or hell.
Hindus believe that we are endlessly reincarnated and that karma determines what our station will be in the next life (which happens right here on Earth).

Which one do you believe? Or do you have your own mix-and-match combination of the two?

While you think about it, I'll respond to your previous post.

Belief is both truth, AND hope.

Beliefs can be false, though. People can believe things that are false. So belief can't be truth, right?

You didn't address this in your last reply. Why not? Why are you just repeating the same claim over again? Don't you see the problem?

Because Adam chose the tree of good and evil over the tree of immortality. The apple man consumed makes human being partial sinners, and human life is impermanent, unless you believe in Jesus as your lord and savior.

So it's not karma. I'm being punished for Adam's original sin. Right? It's not about anything I did. It's Adam's fault that I'm a sinner. He made me a partial sinner, just like you. There is nothing I can do about that.

If I don't believe in Jesus as my lord and saviour, what happens to me? Will God understand, or will God bear a grudge against me and send me to hell for failing to believe, even though he must have known I wouldn't believe.

Adam sinned because of the serpent, and human had free will, and satan tempted it.

Who made the serpent? Who made free will? Who made Satan?

Your God knew that Adam would sin. He created Adam knowing that Adam would sin. Right? It makes no sense for God to punish Adam for something that God knew would happen and could have prevented but chose not to.

Besides, what does an omnipotent being get out of punishing his creation? It doesn't make any sense.

I suffer piously. Even though I suffer I can see through it and still believe in God.

Do you believe in God because you're afraid of going to hell? Is that the only reason?

Suffering is because of the devil, and it causes us to be un sanctified.

Who created the devil?

Why does your omnipotent God allow this devil to run around corrupting His creation? He could stop the devil any time he wanted to, couldn't he? Why doesn't he?

But when you hurt people you can’t feel pleasure and God will keep you on earth until you are pure.

Are you thinking of reincarnation, here? That's not Christianity. Jesus didn't say people would be reincarnated over and over again. On the contrary, he said that would only happen once, at the End of Days. That's what the bible says, anyway.

Are you a Christian or a Hindu, or what, kx000?

And if you rebel against Gods law, God may hate you.

Where can I find God's law?

What sense does it make for an omnipotent being to hate me (or to hate anything, for that matter)? An omnipotent being must be complete and content in itself. If there's a problem, it can fix it.

If you see an ant on your kitchen bench, do you hate it, kx000? You have the power of life and death over it. You're bigger and more powerful than the ant. Do you care about whether the ant has sinned? Do you want to punish the ant for its sins?

Can't you see that you would be like the ant, in the eyes of an omnipotent god?

With omnipotence.

I assume you mean that your God fights the devil with his omnipotence. But an omnipotent God could disappear the devil at any time, or make it so the the devil never existed in the first place.

Why can't God get the job done? Why does your God allow the devil to do his thing?

I see that you are the hate filled one.

You've lost me. What or whom do you think I hate? And why?

You told me that your God hates me. Remember? Doesn't that make him the hate filled one?

Just to be clear: I don't hate your God. I don't believe your God is real, so hating your God would be a bit like hating Luke Skywalker. It doesn't make a lot of sense to hate a fictional character. Not in the way you mean it.

Jesus is a forgiver

Then I'll be fine. Jesus will forgive me for not believing in him or God and he'll let me into heaven. I don't need to do anything special. Right?

No punishment only divine karma.

So you're not a Christian, then?

I can be passive, but if people choose to harm they go to hell for a short time.

I don't understand what you mean.

 

[Pinball1970]

Suffering is because of the devil, and it causes us to be un sanctified. But when you hurt people you can’t feel pleasure and God will keep you on earth until you are pure. And if you rebel against Gods law, God may hate you.

You need to read Job. According to scripture Yhwh tortured Job for being righteous.
To test his faith.
He had a bet with the devil, you know just for a laugh.
It is a disgusting concept, a little bit like taking your dog who loves you, killing it's pups, not feeding it, beating it then dragging it out to the field and calling it and seeing if it will still come to you.
Just another deluded preachy Christian.

 

[DaveC426913]

According to scripture Yhwh tortured Job for being righteous.

Why Yhwh instead of Yahweh?

 

[Sarkus]

Why Yhwh instead of Yahweh?

"Why not" would be the obvious response.
YHWH (or YHVH) is the transliteration of the original written form - the Tetragrammaton - in the Hebrew scriptures. Yahweh is a widely accepted form (although Jehovah is also accepted by many), but the written form from the Hebrew scriptures is just YHWH.

 

[kx000]

kx000:

Your theology is a bit self-contradictory.

On the one hand, you claim that we're all being punished by your God because of Adam's original sin. But on the other hand, you claim that God doesn't punish anybody and that there's another force in the universe called "karma", which somehow balances up the scales of good and evil.

Maybe punishment isn’t the best word to describe what happens. It’s more like God is passive, and doesn’t hurt anyone, but karma still plays out naturally.

Which is it? Are you a Christian or a Hindu? Or do like to mix and match your religion? Your current synthesis doesn't seem to be coherent, to me.

I believe in all religions.

Beliefs can be false, though. People can believe things that are false. So belief can't be truth, right?

Belief is not false, it merely determines the truth

So it's not karma. I'm being punished for Adam's original sin. Right? It's not about anything I did. It's Adam's fault that I'm a sinner. He made me a partial sinner, just like you. There is nothing I can do about that.

Your not being punished. Your being passive, and as long as you hold onto violence, God will prevent your bliss.

If I don't believe in Jesus as my lord and saviour, what happens to me? Will God understand, or will God bear a grudge against me and send me to hell for failing to believe, even though he must have known I wouldn't believe.

God will understand, but you will still suffer.

Who made the serpent? Who made free will? Who made Satan?

God created nature, and nature must be as such. Even God can not tempt nature.

Your God knew that Adam would sin. He created Adam knowing that Adam would sin. Right? It makes no sense for God to punish Adam for something that God knew would happen and could have prevented but chose not to.

Adam can’t be uncreated, His destiny is holy. And at the same time God can’t hold your hand through life.

Besides, what does an omnipotent being get out of punishing his creation? It doesn't make any sense.

It’s not a punishment, its just how nature is.

Do you believe in God because you're afraid of going to hell? Is that the only reason?

No

Who created the devil?

God. In order to eat meat their must be evil animals.

 

[DaveC426913]

It’s more like God is passive, and doesn’t hurt anyone, but karma still plays out naturally.

Huh. So God has an equal. A rival.

 

[kx000]

Huh. So God has an equal. A rival.

What are you saying here? Adam is Gods equal as they are both here suffering. Adam is a simple gnostic under the temptation of good and evil, and God sends His holiest angels to what is left of Eden where they have suffered piously after Christ.

 

[DaveC426913]

What are you saying here?

This is what I quoted:

. It’s more like God is passive, and doesn’t hurt anyone, but karma still plays out naturally.

You seem to be saying that God takes a back seat to this karma entity, who decides to mete out reward and punishment., usually God's job.

Is God on vacation? Or does he only work the day shift?