How to be saved as a Christian - Faith vs. Works

Mrhero54

Visitor,
please response to "is God responisble...." I really want your input on my most recent post. I have class in five mins. so i can't reply immediately..would apprecaite it. thnx


1)
Is God not responsible for Human Suffering?
God created everything thing right? So is he not directly or at least indirectly responible for everything? (Human suffering)

2)
First, free will is an illusion. God knows which (to use your metaphor) person you will listen to. If it is the wrong person, regardless if it is your own decision, God knew this when he was creating you, therefore he knew you would make bad decisions and end up in hell.

3)
Second if this world is a test, then it is decidely unfair, so how can God in good conscience, hold someone accountable for failing a difficult and unfair test?


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"According as he... chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy... without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption, predestinated unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

We, the sons of god, were pre-destinated to be formed into His image see...

The "children of disobediance were not"


Elah, Elohim, the self-existence One, was in the beginning alone. But in Him was a Saviour. Well, what's He going to save? There's nothing lost. Knowing that, that He knowed that this great attribute in Him would project something out yonder that He could save. Then when it did that, by foreknowledge He looked down and He saw everyone that would accept It. And then by doing so, He said, "To save that, the only way I can do it, will be come down Myself and be made flesh and take the sin of the man upon Him, and die for him, that I might be the One that's worshipped," because He is God, the object of worship.


By foreknowledge, the infinite God, Who knowed all things, saw the Lamb, and He slayed the Lamb before the foundation of the world, and He put your name on the Lamb's Book of Life. And He seen the deceitfulness of Satan, what he would do. So He put your name on there. And He said that the antichrist would be so religious, so good, such a fine fellow, such a smart man, such a religious man, that he would deceive the very elected if it was possible. But it isn't... (it's) impossible, because their names were foreordained before the foundation of the world. By election He chose them, and by predestination they knowed where they are going.

Only one form of eternal life....thats God. The sons of God came from God and go back to God.....(To redeem means to be brought back) ..the rest....it's like this ...(now I'm not saying God doesn't have an "economy" made up of those who've been nice to His "little ones" ect..)...but....

Jesus said: They shall say: "Then why hath He made me thus?"
and He answered:
Roman's 9:22 "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory"

That pretty much explains all 3 questions.
 
persol

There's no trinity of "gods" - The Lord Jesus Christ is the name of the "Father, Son and the Holy Ghost"
And this disproves the trinity how?

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Ah, a trinitarian.........BATTLE !!!

Now, there are NO contradiction in the bible (King James at least)
I believed I've proved that here over and over.......some people though just refuse to listen......

In order to have three persons in one God (trinitarian doctrine)
- although they claim no one can explain it - it's too much of a mystery.........
A person is defined in webster's as haveing a distinct personality,
This make it three Gods....
Three God poly-theism existed before Christianity and was re-instituted at the Nicene Concil in Rome at 325 A.D. The "church united with the state and began the "Great inqusition" murdering 68 million real christians over their stand on this and other false teachings the "church adopted at Nicea.

One of the Ten Commandments.......Have no other God but Me.

Jesus said.....Baptise in the Name, (The Name ..Singular) of the Father , Son and the Holy ghost.----------

Not "the name of the Father", "the name of the Son", and "the name of the Holy Ghost"....which is the way Trinitarian's say it.

That is intentionaly changing scripture making room for their three god doctrine.

Now Peter (with the keys to the kingdom) said on the day of Pentecost: Baptise in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

No contradiction there because the Name (singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is The Lord Jesus Christ.

The reason they can't explain the trinity to their people is because it doesn't exist and they can't explain away the scripture staring them in the face.
 
Re: Mrhero54

Originally posted by TheVisitor
1)
Is God not responsible for Human Suffering?
God created everything thing right? So is he not directly or at least indirectly responible for everything? (Human suffering)

God is responsible for the conditions and particles that make up everything, for example if we desire to have sex, then we can do so because we have the necassery equipment :), ie. body and mind. He is not responsible for how we conduct ourselves with this equipment, this is our independance, neither is He responsible for any reaction that occurs from our actions, be they good or bad.
Human suffering, as we see in this world, is something that is caused, by other living entities (man, animal, insect, etc...), by ourselves (mind) and by natural causes.

2)
First, free will is an illusion.

If free will is an illusion, then who told you to say this?

God knows which (to use your metaphor) person you will listen to.

God knows through the quality of the persons, He knows every individual, intimately from time immemorial, the relationship does not begin with birth on earth.

If it is the wrong person, regardless if it is your own decision,

How could it be the wrong person, unless you are not talking about God? My point is, even though you do not believe in God, you should talk about Him as His character suggests (scriptures), not as you would like it to be, if we are to come to any real conclusions.

God knew this when he was creating you, therefore he knew you would make bad decisions and end up in hell.

With our ability to choose, we are not bound to go to hell, it is up to us, this is why God gives scriptures at different levels around the world, so that we can understand our position, and make the choice to be with Him or descend into more ignorance.

3)
Second if this world is a test, then it is decidely unfair, so how can God in good conscience, hold someone accountable for failing a difficult and unfair test?

When you say "the world" do you mean the planet, ecosystems, etc..or do you mean people and the choices they make? :)

Love

Jan Ardena.
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Jan Ardena

Originally posted by TheVisitor
1)
Is God not responsible for Human Suffering?
God created everything thing right? So is he not directly or at least indirectly responible for everything? (Human suffering)


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I did not originaly post these questions....Mrhero54 did, I believe
I attempted to answers these in a earlier post - but these you have posted are neither my questions or answers.
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Originally posted by TheVisitor
That may be Good for you, but as I've stated, knowledge of Greek or Hebrew means approximatly....Sqwat, Zero, Zilch, Nada..Nina, Nunu....

The meaning is SEALED untill the last days..........
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It was not my intention to learn Greek and Hebrew because they're cool languages but rather to get the full meaning of the original texts. Obviously you didn't wish to further your education but seem to be a blind follower of William Branham who so greatly influenced you that his truth is now your truth. Since I can read the original Hebrew and Greek texts and you cannot, you have to rely on other people's influenced translations. The KJV was translated(more like reconfiguration of the Bishop's Bible and Rheims-Douai) to satisfy the needs of the various religious factions in England at the time (High Churchmen, Puritans, Protestants and Catholics). The principle Greek text that the KJV NT was based on is the Textus Receptus which is part of Theodore Beza's 9th ed based on Stephanus text(3rd ed) of 1550 and that text was based on the Erasmus text(3rd ed) of 1522. If you read(you probably won't) all the earlier bibles before the KJV, it more resembles W. Tyndale's translation. And if you compare the KJV with the other older and more modern bibles(and you probably won't), the KJV leans slightly toward Calvinism and episcopalianism. You have already stated that the KJV was the first english translated bible, and it was not, which tells me that your education is deficient.
 
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Mrhero54

More on your question: Taken from a message titled : Christ is the Mystery of God revealed - by William Branham July 28, 1963




68-2 220 When I think of it makes me shiver. Oh, to live with Him: going home with Him to live with Him, going home with Him to live with Him forever, having Eternal Life...
This is God's great mystery of love expressed, that God and man became one. See? The whole thing is God and man one. God and man was one there, and God and man is one here. See? What is it? Being filled with His Spirit, Him having the preeminences. That was God's achievement. That's God purpose to do that, that He might be in Christ and Christ in us, and all of us together one. The Holy Spirit, same thing that revealed it to Christ reveals it here, the supernatural, creative power. Oh, my.

69-1 221 The same God that could--that could say to Moses, "Let there come frogs," the same One could said there, "Let water be turned to wine." See? Amen. Is that right? He's the same God, the same One; He just don't change. It's God in man. That's His manifestation. That's what He's revealing. That's what He's trying to do. And God's own Word revealed and shows that man cannot create (God's the Creator); and it ain't man no more; it's God the Creator in man, which is His Church now (Amen!), going home to heaven, live with Him ever, God expressing eternal love to the Church.

69-2 222 Listen. Listen close now. I want you not to fail to get this. No other church, no other sign, no other fellowship, no other government, no other testimony, no other creed, no denomination is accepted outside of this. God accepts nothing else but that. Christ in you, the hope of glory the only thing that God recognizes. No fellowship, no church, no creed, no denomination, no nothing; everything else is dead. Its fragments that has to be cut off, pruned off away from the thing that Christ might live with preeminences in you.
 
Good one Darwin

So nicely written Darwin. Some good logic for a change. I love good brains that think straight. and I was starting to think the religion forum is turning into the Jerry Falwell gospel group.
 
You have already stated that the KJV was the first english translated bible, and it was not, which tells me that your education is deficient.

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Again you hash words attempting to discredit my posts, The KJ version was the first commonly accepted english version and is used today, 70 ministers spent years doing so.

But thats not the point - without revelation from God it might as well be greek to you.

God never used organized religons - PERIOD
He loathes them .....it's apparent in all the scriptures.
You keep changing the point back to hashing words over transcriptions.

God has preserved His word, I use other versions too.
I never said the KJ version was the only on to use.
Obviously you have nothing else to say.
 
Originally posted by TheVisitor
posted 03-20-03 at 06:46 PM
Again you hash words attempting to discredit my posts

posted 03-19-03 at 11:01 PM
But, as a sidenote....I use the King James Version from 1611
It's the first translation into English and the most accuate.
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You were saying?
 
You were saying?

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Sure, other versions, i.e. the american standard revised ect... sometime use different diffenitions for the word involved, and rather than use a dictionary, you can read it in them..
It's only a tool though......

Stop trying to trip me up with your petty arguements.
They did that to Jesus also, you know....
 
Originally posted by TheVisitor

Stop trying to trip me up with your petty arguements.
They did that to Jesus also, you know....
Click to expand...

They did? Supposidly all prophet where empowered with the spirit of god and had the most eloquent and strongest of arguments. I don't think Prophet Jesus Peace be on him was tricked by an argument.

Second, don't compare yourself to Jesus please. Oh I forgot, you are a son of god, and Jesus is a son of god also, that makes him your bro.....Or is Jesus really god? Or one third of god? What does that make you...the monkey's uncle.
 
Your denomination's were created when God sent a messinger with a message, such as Martin Luther with justifcation, and after he was gone they formed their creeds and organized.
They died right there.....But God moved on....His life keeps moving revealing more to His people, like Wesley's message of santification, ect... The denomination's left behind are dead husks were the life once was , God's word is like springs of living waters, the denomination's are like Stagnat Pools....and Broken Cisterns...

He that has an ear..........let him hear

Rev. 18:2
" And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird."
 
Second, don't compare yourself to Jesus please. Oh I forgot, you are a son of god, and Jesus is a son of god also, that makes him your bro.....Or is Jesus really god? Or one third of god? What does that make you...the monkey's uncle.

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Ok, you made laugh on that one, I gotta admit.

But I have explained how this works over and over....
Jesus is God, and the first begotton of many bretren, the son of man, son of God..ect....
Depends on which act your speaking of as to which title applies
He was the father above us, The Son with us, The Holy Spirit in us, and in this day....."they that are led by the spirit of God these shall be called the sons of God".
 
TheVisitor,

Ah, a trinitarian.........BATTLE !!!
I'm not... but good try. I was just asking why you thinkyou know better then the other sects.

Now, there are NO contradiction in the bible (King James at least)
I believed I've proved that here over and over.......some people though just refuse to listen......
No... you usually answer one or two contradictions and leave the rest alone. Your explainations are not even internally consistent. Let alone the fact that various Bible translations contradict each other. You've placed your faith in the KJV without examining the background (and have stated that you don't care about the translation).

In order to have three persons in one God (trinitarian doctrine)
- although they claim no one can explain it - it's too much of a mystery...
So they claim that something is a mystery and it's bad, you claim it and it's the truth?

..."Great inqusition" murdering 68 million real christians...
The sources appear to have inflated these numbers. 68million would have accounted for 1/5 of the world population in 1200ad.


Stop trying to trip me up with your petty arguements.
If there's a God, he's in the details.

They did that to Jesus also, you know....
You really love making this comparison don't you? Since we are obviously unable to understand the Bible to the same extent as you, what do you intend to accomplish by preaching on this board?
 
heflores

Or one third of god?

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I know you as a Muslim don't fall for that trinity stuff..and neither do the Jews or I, because it's a false doctrine thats really obvious.

As I stated earlier:

In order to have three persons in one God (trinitarian doctrine)
- although they claim no one can explain it - it's too much of a mystery.........
A person is defined in webster's as haveing a distinct personality,
This make it three Gods....
Three God poly-theism existed before Christianity and was re-instituted at the Nicene Concil in Rome at 325 A.D. The "church united with the state and began the "Great inqusition" murdering 68 million real christians over their stand on this and other false teachings the "church adopted at Nicea.

One of the Ten Commandments.......Have no other God but Me.

Jesus said.....Baptise in the Name, (The Name ..Singular) of the Father , Son and the Holy ghost.----------

Not "the name of the Father", "the name of the Son", and "the name of the Holy Ghost"....which is the way Trinitarian's say it.

That is intentionaly changing scripture making room for their three god doctrine.

Now Peter (with the keys to the kingdom) said on the day of Pentecost: Baptise in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

No contradiction there because the Name (singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is The Lord Jesus Christ.

The reason they can't explain the trinity to their people is because it doesn't exist and they can't explain away the scripture staring them in the face.
 
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Persol

..."Great inqusition" murdering 68 million real christians...
The sources appear to have inflated these numbers. 68million would have accounted for 1/5 of the world population in 1200ad

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Where did you say you got that "education"
You better ask for a refund.

Foxes book of martyr's record's at least, and thats only the recorded deaths...68 million, also see the glorious reformation by Smuckers, I believe.....

This is recorded deaths over the period from the Nicene council meetings in 325 A.D. till the end of the Dark ages aprox. 1580 A.D.
 
Re: Persol

Originally posted by TheVisitor
Where did you say you got that "education"? You better ask for a refund.
I didn't, but thanks for the insult.

This is recorded deaths over the period from the Nicene council meetings in 325 A.D. till the end of the Dark ages aprox. 1580 A.D.
I thought you were talking about a tighter time-frame.
 
Originally posted by TheVisitor
Jesus is God, and the first begotton of many bretren, the son of man, son of God..ect....
Depends on which act your speaking of as to which title applies
He was the father above us, The Son with us, The Holy Spirit in us, and in this day....."they that are led by the spirit of God these shall be called the sons of God".
Click to expand...

So let us go again. Jesus is god, so who was Jesus praying to???? And if he was god, they why does the corrupt bible go saying that he is the only begotton son? If he is the son, then he's not the father, and who is the father? And if the bible says that jesus is the ONLY begotton son, then how can all those sons of god exist.
 
Darwin Disciple

I still don't get you, TheVisitor, are you Pentecostalist, Branhamist, some new prophet or what?

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Take what I said here...........

Your denomination's were created when God sent a messinger with a message, such as Martin Luther with justifcation, and after he was gone they formed their creeds and organized.
They died right there.....But God moved on....His life keeps moving revealing more to His people, like Wesley's message of santification, ect... The denomination's left behind are dead husks were the life once was , God's word is like springs of living waters, the denomination's are like Stagnat Pools....and Broken Cisterns...

God said His Mysteries, the mystery of Christ in you, the God head, serpent seed, marriage and divorce, the rapture, all the doctrines the denominations disagree over that they all have partial truth of mixed with creeds and traditions......
He said He would straighten it all out in the days of the Voice of the seventh angel (church age messinger)

They all have partial truth, but thats not going to be enough to get them in a rapture........

Jesus said I am the "TRUE BREAD"
"TRUE" means a full or complete revelation of a concept, as opposed to a partial revelation.......

Revelation 19:9 - And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God

See.....

I'm not pentecostal, were beyond that now....
They denominated on speaking in tounges as evidence
sure theres a real, but it was the least of the gifts....see.

Not Branhamite......some of them say Branham was Jesus, or only see god sent a prophet........
I can't be responcible for what some others believe, but...

Branham was the prophet promised to come in Mal 4
He was the Voice in Rev 10:7
He was the angel crying in Rev 18:1-4
and while He was here before his death in 1965
Christ came (1963)and revealed Himself as the Son of Man
to gather His elect....
The elijah prophet had to be here when Jesus came......
Just as John the baptist introduced Jesus....

Branham was a prophet, and the church age messinger to Laodicea. Before 1963....
Then the Son of Man appeared.
The church ages were over. This is when Rev. 18:1-4 took place.
Things man had guessed at, including Branham before this time, were revealed...........
Christ is the only one could take the book and open the Seals, and He did......This was when Rev 10:1-7 took place.

Today there's a five-fold ministry of God filled men,
In the exodus Moses led them out, but Joshua led them into the promised land....And that's Jesus......

Revelation 1:13 - And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Revelation 14:14 - And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

You see.... It's harvest time
And His angels...are calling the names of his elect.


Matthew 24:31 - And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

When did you think these things would happen, after the tribulation?......it's later than you think....
He said He would come as a theif in the night....
As the Son of Man, in an hour you expected not...
 
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