how peaceful is islam ?

[WildBlueYonder]

Um, ever heard of a little thing called the CRUSADES?

aah, that was 1 thousand years ago, got anything more recent; like Darfur, Indonesia, Pakistan, right now?
BTW, who broke into the Church of the Nativity & instead of using it as a peaceful sanctuary, used it as a bunker? Or how about the Grand Mosque?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_the_Church_of_the_Nativity_in_Bethlehem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Mosque_Seizure

& least we forget, those 19 hijackers on Sept 11th, were they like, umm, pagans or maybe wiccans? I forget, what religion motivated them, do you know? What holy book did they read?

don't blame Iraq on Christians, Cheney is part of the dark force, he & the neo-cons twisted facts for this war
official neo-con website
http://www.newamericancentury.org

neo-con signatories to statement of principles
http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm
Elliott Abrams, Gary Bauer, William J. Bennett, Jeb Bush,

Dick Cheney, Eliot A. Cohen, Midge Decter, Paula Dobriansky, Steve Forbes,

Aaron Friedberg, Francis Fukuyama, Frank Gaffney, Fred C. Ikle,

Donald Kagan, Zalmay Khalilzad, I. Lewis Libby, Norman Podhoretz,

Dan Quayle, Peter W. Rodman, Stephen P. Rosen, Henry S. Rowen,

Donald Rumsfeld, Vin Weber, George Weigel, Paul Wolfowitz

Christians did the exact same thing, except Christians got farther around the world that Muslims have.

yes, but they went against Christian teaching, whilst muslims follow the Quran every time they mistreat, persecute, &/or kill a non-muslim
ever heard of the Beatitudes?
islam has been on jihad since its inception, or do you suppose they just showed up with their saffron-robed missionaries across the Middle East, North Africa, Central Asia & Southern Europe & converted whole populations with sweet words & prayers? “there is no compulsion in religion” stated in Mohammad’s early years in Mecca was abrogated once he came to power in Medina, or didn’t you know?

Do you know how many religions have risen and fallen throughout the history of human civilization?

no? do you? are you a religions scholar?
my guess is that except for Jim Jones' peoples Temple & Heaven's Gate, most are still around in some form or other. but I could be wrong, please enlighten
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven's_Gate_(cult)

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Madrassas are the secret weapon that will be used against the West; its students will not learn math, physics, or advanced electronics. But they will learn how to use those elements in how to make bombs, and with all the mind-control they are under, push the button without pity for those around them

If islam is the religion of peace, them all those students would be in the forefront of a peace movement; Pakistanis reaching out to Indians in arms of forgiveness, heartfelt thoughts and kindness, instead we get this:

A madrassa is an Islamic religious school. Many of the Taliban were educated in Saudi-financed madrassas in Pakistan that teach Wahhabism, a particularly austere and rigid form of Islam which is rooted in Saudi Arabia. Around the world, Saudi wealth and charities contributed to an explosive growth of madrassas during the Afghan jihad against the Soviets.

From:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saudi/analyses/madrassas.html

Critics of the madrassas focus on the narrow curriculum often taught. "Many students develop an intolerant, prejudiced... and narrow-minded view of the world," says Pakistani journalist Ahmed Rashid.

from:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4683073.stm

jihad of the whitewash or is it brainwash?

WASHINGTON -- A top textbook consultant shaping classroom education on Islam in American public schools recently worked for a school funded and controlled by the Saudi government, which propagates a rigidly anti-Western strain of Islam, a WorldNetDaily investigation reveals.
The consultant, Susan L. Douglass, has also praised Pakistan's madrassa schools as "proud symbols of learning," even after the U.S. government blamed them for fueling the rise of the Taliban and al-Qaida.
Douglass, routinely described as a "scholar" or "historian," has edited manuscripts of world history textbooks used by middle and high school students across the country. She's also advised state education boards on curriculum standards dealing with world religion, and has helped train thousands of public school teachers on Islamic instruction.
In effect, she is responsible for teaching millions of American children about Islam, experts say, while operating in relative obscurity.
WorldNetDaily has learned that up until last year Douglass taught social studies at the Islamic Saudi Academy in Alexandria, Va., which teaches Wahhabism through textbooks that condemn Jews and Christians as infidels and enemies of Islam. Her husband, Usama Amer, still teaches at the grades 2-12 school, a spokeswoman there confirmed. Both are practicing Muslims.
The Saudi government funds the school, which has a sister campus in Fairfax, Va.

from:
http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/1148


& in Darfur

Most of the mass killings in this area happened in late 2003 and early 2004, when long-simmering tensions in Darfur flared into its latest bloodbath.
Ali Kushayb, the alleged janjaweed commander named by the ICC, has been fired as the Mukjar region chief of the "central reserve" police, a force regarded as a cover for the janjaweed. He was replaced by his deputy, Addaif al-Sinah, who villagers say remains the area's janjaweed chief.
Ahmed Harun, who was a government minister and head of the government's Darfur task force when the killings occurred, is also sought by the court. He is now the minister of humanitarian affairs.
Mukjar offers a sobering look at the results of a government victory: Impoverished and frightened ethnic Africans huddle in refugee camps where they survive on humanitarian aid, while Arab nomads control the hinterland, threatening any farmer who tries to return.

From:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070526/ap_on_re_af/darfur_s_killing_fields

 

[Exploradora]

keep on spewing hate. you cannot disown the crusades just by saying they weren't "following the bible". you cannot say that that Christianity does not have as many horrible, violent practices as Islam just because you happen to agree with the bible. That's just idiotic and lacking all plausible insight.

And it is accepted by most reasonable scholars that, at minimum, thousands upon thousands of religious movements have risen and fallen in the history of humanity. I never suggested that those religions were gone, I just suggested that they were diminished. Although I am willing to place my money on many of them being literally nonexistent inside our current society.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

unlike christians and jews, we don't hold all what we got from scholars as being true, even if he (al-bukhari) claims that Muhammad said it, I as a shiite for one, don't find al-bukhary credible... not to mention the above hadith was narrated by a one man source, so bukhari is to answer to his claim this....

such a broad brush about what christians & jews believe,
but are you telling us, that as a muslim, you don't believe what other muslims said about your prophet? that supposedly, lived in that era? you think its altered or edited? so, could other things have been altered? say the quran? or those hadiths you do believe in? how do you know what is true? & how do you judge, by what scholars say, maybe? or do you shop around for verses & hadiths you like or is there a list of approved verses & hadiths, & who approved them & what standards did they use? do you agree with those standards? what are your standards?

And what of the pagan temples that existed in the middle east all demolished by the byzantines and christians, and the numerous arian churches that were destroyed in europe after the germanians and huns power faded! r these reconquests also?

in the ME, do you mean the pyramids? or all those greek temples? as for arians, in Spain, most Visigoths converted to Catholicism previous to islam, Reccared I think was the first king that did, the rest followed to , then some to islam under pressure from the Moors

 

[WildBlueYonder]

keep on spewing hate. you cannot disown the crusades just by saying they weren't "following the bible".

just who is spewing hate? who threathens to behead people (& actually does, its on video if you care to watch) or to conquer the world or distroy Israel?

you cannot say that that Christianity does not have as many horrible, violent practices as Islam just because you happen to agree with the bible. That's just idiotic and lacking all plausible insight

I think had is the operative word, name some recent ones? Darur, Indonesia, Thailand, right?

 

[Exploradora]

Ever heard of the Lords Resistance Army? Or something called the IRA? Islam does not have a monopoly on violent radicals.

 

[DiamondHearts]

Alright man, we can take this slowly. I hope we can debate in an kind and just manner.

First can you explain to us your religion, philosophy and country of origin so that we can talk about this. May I stress, let us both talk in a peaceful manner.

Madrassas are the secret weapon that will be used against the West; its students will not learn math, physics, or advanced electronics. But they will learn how to use those elements in how to make bombs, and with all the mind-control they are under, push the button without pity for those around them

Madrassa means school in Arabic. A state-run school, a religious school, or even a catholic school would be referred to as a madrassa. You really can't limit madrassa to an Islamic school. Also, madrassa are only where children learn to read and memorize Quran, often this is after their public school or once a week from a Qari.

If islam is the religion of peace, them all those students would be in the forefront of a peace movement; Pakistanis reaching out to Indians in arms of forgiveness, heartfelt thoughts and kindness, instead we get this:

The modern conflict between India and Pakistan is more complex than religion. Some issues to think about are the occupation of Muslim Kashmir, Gujurat riots against Muslims with government complicity and the recent mosque bombings. No doubt this creates discontent with Pakistan and India's Muslims. This however is a political conflict.

jihad of the whitewash or is it brainwash?

& in Darfur

Political conflicts should never be oversimplified to religious in origin.

such a broad brush about what christians & jews believe,
but are you telling us, that as a muslim, you don't believe what other muslims said about your prophet? that supposedly, lived in that era? you think its altered or edited? so, could other things have been altered? say the quran?

All Muslims follow the same Quran, 1400 years old.

or those hadiths you do believe in? how do you know what is true? & how do you judge, by what scholars say, maybe? or do you shop around for verses & hadiths you like or is there a list of approved verses & hadiths, & who approved them & what standards did they use? do you agree with those standards? what are your standards?

Hadith scholars and Islamic teachers. There are many points of view.

in the ME, do you mean the pyramids? or all those greek temples? as for arians, in Spain, most Visigoths converted to Catholicism previous to islam, Reccared I think was the first king that did, the rest followed to , then some to islam under pressure from the Moors

The Moors were never known to force people into Islam, quite the opposite. They allowed religious freedom unlike the Catholics who succeeded them.

just who is spewing hate? who threathens to behead people (& actually does, its on video if you care to watch)

People who took advantage of the chaos caused by the American invasion of Iraq. Again, invasion and humiliation of sovereign nations have the effect of polarizing people. May I remind you of the Americans who were termed by the British as terrorists for tar and feathering British government officials? Today, that would qualify as terrorism.

or to conquer the world or distroy Israel?

Both are oversimplifications. I have no knowledge of any Muslim groups which claims as its right these things.

About the issue of not recognizing Israel, let's let Israel first recognize Palestine. This is also a political conflict.

I think had is the operative word, name some recent ones? Darur,

Western support in continuing an terrorist insurgency in Sudan which is also destabilizing neighboring countries like Chad. Why doesn't anyone also talk of Somalia, whose insurgency is more justified in its resistance against Ethiopian occupation.

Indonesia,

Not aware any problem from there.

Thailand, right?

An autocratic Buddhist regime suppressing and abusing its Muslim Malay territory to the south. Resistance will be the natural response.

I hope everything is well with you. After your reply, let's narrow our discussion to purely religious and scientific dimensions and exclude politics from our discussion. God bless you.

 

[leopold]

internet sacred text archive:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm

 

[pjdude1219]

islam like christianity has alot of the basic tenets of faith ignored. it is a peaceful religion. hell the koran implies that if your not muslim you should be a christian or a jew. its been corrupted to suit the will of islamic leaders if followed truelly its a peaceful religion

 

[pjdude1219]

The following is a description of what cult is: **

1. A cult is a religious group with extreme beliefs and practices - beliefs that are often contrary to science and logic but they are believed as "obvious" truth by the cult members.*
2. The members of cults often isolate themselves from friends, family and society and use deceptive and unethical recruiting techniques
3. Use manipulative methods to control the minds of followers
4. Venerate a human leader or leaders
5. Recruiting work is performed by all of the members
6. People are not allowed to criticize the leader, the doctrine, or the organization, or read information that is critical of the cult.
7. Members are trained to reject and disbelieve criticism of the cult as lies from Satan.
8. Members spy on one another and report improper activities or comments to leaders.
9. Members are taught to suppress anything which might reflect negatively to outsiders about the cult.
10. The doctrine is absolutist and the ideology is internalized as "the Truth."
11. Members are told to avoid contact with ex-members or critics, even their relatives.
12. Members are instilled with a deep fear about ever leaving the organization, and anyone who does depart is of the devil and sometimes severely punished.
13. Members are emotional controlled and warned of being caught and punished.
14. Disciplinary action is administered by group leaders, which may involve excommunication for such things as questioning organization policy or doctrine.
15. People are encouraged to sacrifice education, career and family interests to server the interests of the cult.
16. Advocate socializing only with other members in the organization and avoiding outsiders.
*********

3. Use manipulative methods to control the minds of followers

Suicide bombers classic case


12. Members are instilled with a deep fear about ever leaving the organization, and anyone who does depart is of the devil and sometimes severely punished.

In muslim countries as shown in malaysia this year, dozens of muslims attacked a teapot cult because muslims were joining in there hundreds..


6. People are not allowed to criticize the leader, the doctrine, or the organization, or read information that is critical of the cult.


As shown with the one or 2 muslims that have spoke against islam this century, a bounty goes on there head, for daring to be critical of islam....

you relize that evangelical christians meet alot of the conditions

 

[Exploradora]

Someone actually brought in the cult debate on this??? Please read this
http://www.religioustolerance.org/cultmenu.htm

Most people reserve the word cult for a new religious movement. That would exclude almost all followers of Islam. Now, if you mean a destructive doomsday group then yes, you can find groups within Islam, as you can within Christianity, that are very destructive.

 

[Challenger78]

There are fundamentalists in every religion, it is only because of the media that Islamic Fundalmentalists are focused on the most.
Quite frankly i think this is a muslim bashing thread.

 

[S.A.M.]

There are fundamentalists in every religion, it is only because of the media that Islamic Fundalmentalists are focused on the most.
Quite frankly i think this is a muslim bashing thread.

You got it.

 

[Challenger78]

Thanks, Now i can divert my attention to more useful things.

 

[John99]

There are fundamentalists in every religion, it is only because of the media that Islamic Fundalmentalists are focused on the most.
Quite frankly i think this is a muslim bashing thread.

as opposed to other bashing threads? What type of fundamentalst would you prefer to be killed by?

 

[Challenger78]

I'd actually prefer to be killed by an Atheist Fundamentalist, Then i could finally say i wasn't killed because of my religion.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

There are fundamentalists in every religion,

but not many control gov's, fund &/or train terrorists, send suicide bombers into other countries; afghanistan, indonesia, iran, syria, sudan, did i miss any?

it is only because of the media that Islamic Fundalmentalists are focused on the most.

seems thet drew attention to themselves, flying planes into buildings tends to do that, you know

Quite frankly i think this is a muslim bashing thread.

i think islams does that on its own, quite nicely

 

[GeoffP]

Sorry, can't let this one slide. Not from a guy who was all right with the execution of apostates.

Alright man, we can take this slowly. I hope we can debate in an kind and just manner.

First can you explain to us your religion, philosophy and country of origin so that we can talk about this. May I stress, let us both talk in a peaceful manner.

Translated:

"First, can you tell me your religion, philosophy and country of origin so that I can dig something up for a tu quoque attack. If you are Israeli I will bring up Palestine, if American something else, if you are from no country I can attack so broadly, I will insinuate that you have been misled. And all the while that I hold my own, quite vicious opinions, I will attempt to erode your suspicions by seeming peaceful. I can assure you that if you were an islamic citizen of my country voicing such issues - an apostate, say - I would not be so peaceful, as I have admitted elsewhere."

Madrassa means school in Arabic. A state-run school, a religious school, or even a catholic school would be referred to as a madrassa. You really can't limit madrassa to an Islamic school. Also, madrassa are only where children learn to read and memorize Quran, often this is after their public school or once a week from a Qari.

It is also where they learn islamic supremacist theology. It is where hate is distilled.

The modern conflict between India and Pakistan is more complex than religion. Some issues to think about are the occupation of Muslim Kashmir, Gujurat riots against Muslims with government complicity and the recent mosque bombings. No doubt this creates discontent with Pakistan and India's Muslims. This however is a political conflict.

Founded in an ancient religious war. Never of course can DH mention islamic bombings by Pakistan, with their own government's complicity; that would be an admission of error. But, of course: a political conflict.

Political conflicts should never be oversimplified to religious in origin.

Unless they are.

Hadith scholars and Islamic teachers. There are many points of view.

And, as Yonder points out, many views to shop amongst.

The Moors were never known to force people into Islam, quite the opposite. They allowed religious freedom unlike the Catholics who succeeded them.

Incorrect. There were religious purges and pogroms all through the rule of the Moors in Spain, and before that in North Africa.

Both are oversimplifications. I have no knowledge of any Muslim groups which claims as its right these things.

Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad. So now you know.

About the issue of not recognizing Israel, let's let Israel first recognize Palestine. This is also a political conflict.

Israel offered recognition before. It was refused.

Western support in continuing an terrorist insurgency in Sudan which is also destabilizing neighboring countries like Chad.

??? You call arming the long-suffering people of the Sudan a "terrorist insurgency"?? Mass kidnapping, genocide, slavery: you're big on 'resistance', but it would appear to be resistance of a certain kind. Southern Sudan (Christians and muslims alike) has been terrorized by northerners for centuries, yet that doesn't seem to bother you so much as the southerners fighting back against the more extremist - and thereby dear to you - northerners. The southerners, who never invaded the north. Repugnant.

Not aware any problem from there. [Indonesia]

Australian and Indonesian police have foiled terrorists with links to Jemaah Islamiah during raids in East Java, the Australian Federal Police (AFP) says.
"The close co-operation between the two agencies has resulted in the arrest of eight men linked to Al Jama'ah Al Islamyah (JI)," an AFP statement said.

Indonesian National Police shot dead one man during the raid.

The cell is alleged to be close to JI military leader Abu Dujanah.

"One of the suspects is believed to have close associations to the bombing of the Australian Embassy," the AFP said....

Police seized 20 bombs, 730 kilograms of explosive material, 45 kilograms of TNT, almost 200 detonators, more than a thousand rounds of ammunition and a cache of weapons.

Head of the INP bomb team General Surya Dharma said the raids had averted a major terrorist attack.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/ma...ian-terror-raid/2007/04/03/1175366235986.html

A spiritual jihad, no doubt.

JAKARTA, March 21 (Reuters) - An Indonesian court jailed three Muslim militants on Wednesday for the beheadings of three Christian schoolgirls from religiously divided Central Sulawesi province.
Judges found the main defendant, Hasanuddin, guilty of masterminding the beheadings of the Christian girls in 2005 in Central Sulawesi's Poso region and sentenced him to 20 years in prison.

A separate bench sentenced Hasanuddin's accomplices, Lilik Purnomo and Irwanto Irano, to 14 years in prison.

Chief judge Binsar Siregar said Hasanuddin asked his accomplices to put the severed heads in plastic bags and place them outside Christian houses.

Hasanuddin scrawled a warning on a piece of paper saying: "A life for a life. A head for a head", and put it in one of the bags, the judge said.

The attacks were aimed at avenging the killings of Muslims during the 1998-2001 inter-religious violence in Poso.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/JAK10167.htm

The Moluccas, Sulawesi, the list goes on.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/te...a/2007/01/23/1169518709432.html?s_cid=rss_smh

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1164881964457&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1162378402311&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20714242-1702,00.html

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/CrisesArticle.aspx?storyId=JAK144283&WTmodLoc=World-R5-Alertnet-5

An autocratic Buddhist regime suppressing and abusing its Muslim Malay territory to the south. Resistance will be the natural response.

Yes. Resistance against cops, priests, teachers.

An independent sultanate until it was merged into Thailand a century ago, the southern provinces have seen rebellions come and go. In the latest, which began in early 2004, the rebels have torched schools, bombed banks, beheaded some 25 people and shot teachers, policemen, government officials and just ordinary citizens. More than half the victims have been Muslims suspected of collaborating with authorities — teachers, civil servants, policemen.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/03/11/asia/AS-FEA-GEN-Thailand-Beyond-the-Border.php?page=1

 

[WildBlueYonder]

The modern conflict between India and Pakistan is more complex than religion.

started when muslims started conquering, killing hindus, controling India until the Brits showed up to replace the Rajis

Some issues to think about are the occupation of Muslim Kashmir,

but not about the original occupation, jihad against hindus, or the imposition of muslim rule, conquest brought islam into india

Gujurat riots against Muslims with government complicity and the recent mosque bombings. No doubt this creates discontent with Pakistan and India's Muslims. This however is a political conflict.

which came first, hindi nationalists or islamic nationalists? Ghandi wanted a unified India, muslims a partitioned tri-state; Hindu India, & muslim Pakistan & East Pakistan (Bengladesh)

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Ever heard of the Lords Resistance Army? Or something called the IRA?

The Lord’s Resistance Army? You mean?

The Holy Spirit Movement (HSM) was the Ugandan rebel group led by Alice Auma, a spirit-medium who claimed to receive direction from the spirit Lakwena. Alice, an ethnic Acholi, was purportedly directed to form the HSM by Lakwena in August 1986 . Technically the Holy Spirit Movement is the political wing of Alice's organization and the Holy Spirit Mobile Force is the military wing, but there was no real separation of functions and the titles are used interchangeably.

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit_Movement
I think you mean a cult

The report says the seeds of this terrible conflict were sown in the defeat in 1986 of Presidents Milton Obote and Tito Okello by forces loyal to Uganda's current leader, Yoweri Museveni.
The remnants of the defeated forces fled north, to their home areas - fearful that the new government would carry out attacks in retribution for government massacres in the Luwero triangle under the previous regimes.
The defeated fighters reformed and eventually rallied to a spiritualist - Alice Lakewenya, in the hour of their despair.
She was in turn defeated in 1987 - and other rebels threw in the towel - leaving a power vacuum in northern Uganda.
It was this that Joseph Kony filled with the Lord's Resistance Army.

While he initially targeted government troops, he turned on civilians when the government sent civil defence militia against him.
In nearly 18 years of fighting Joseph Kony has remained undefeated. So what is his secret?
The Refugee Law Project report says his recruitment is as simple as it is bloody.
Twenty-thousand children have been abducted - often forced to kill their own parents so they have no way back.
They are used as expendable troops - frequently not even given guns to fight with.
Only 200 core combatants are fully armed with weapons supplied by the Sudanese government and other sources

from: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3462901.stm
interesting choice on your part, don't research much do you?

Islam does not have a monopoly on violent radicals.

hummm, the Sudanese gov? sure, that would explain things, so could you re-phrase that quote?