how peaceful is islam ?

[evolution]

Islam was indeed spread by the sword from day one hell according to hadith your prophet participated in 19 military expeditions.

hello puppet i think youy don't know much about the islamic history. all the wars fought by the muhammad (pbuh) was in self defence. though i didn't much time but i will try to give and answer to your all question.

 

[Sock puppet path]

hello puppet i think youy don't know much about the islamic history. all the wars fought by the muhammad (pbuh) was in self defence. though i didn't much time but i will try to give and answer to your all question.

I'm not even referring to Mohammed I merely showed that yes islam did spread out of the arabian peninsula by the sword.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

No Diamondheart they do not all interpet the Qur'an the same way or muslem would not be killing muslem, they kill more of each other evey year than they do non-beleavers, and that isn't saying much for universal interpritation of the Qur'an.

 

[GeoffP]

Q and sockpuppetpath basically seem to believe that Muslims can never do good, that Muslims are evil, and any conflict involving Muslims must eb the fault of Muslims.

That is utterly false, and you know it. The remainder of your argument is sheer invective.

The new trend when faced by facts about islam they don't like appears to be for islamofacists like Diamond to retreat into their shells and plead discrimination and bias. "Oh, they're so mean, those filthy decievers" etc. "Don't take those phrases to mean that, even though that's how muslims all over interpret them." "I would never kill anyone or do any harm in the name of loving islam - except homosexuals and filthy, filthy apostates *sob sob*".

In the same way, Diamond likes now to portray those critical of islam as thinking that islam has nothing good about it. On the contrary, nothing is so flawed as to be worthless, or so good as to be perfect. But she consistently denies any and all negative aspects of islam, citing improper translations - when the translations are evident and/or based on islam itself - or deliberate bias, claiming that islam is always and everywhere perfect, when clearly it isn't, and hasn't been. One is almost forced to adopt the very posture she claims her critics have merely to keep her from failing the argument and claiming victory anyway, for hand in hand with her accusations goes denial. And yet does anyone here really doubt that, if in her power, any or all critics of islam here and elsewhere would be put to death? But she persists with evasion, denial and propaganda in the argument.

I don't think islam is all bad, but it certainly has not been good to non-muslims and I find sharia law to be highly flawed as a system of legal redress. I don't want to live under it. If she wishes to do so, then so be it; but don't wander in and present islam as some apex of human development that we all should aspire to, when it clearly isn't. It's deceptive and nonsensical.

Geoff

 

[I don't know]

The claim of universal islamic tolerance is a myth. Read that document again and try and see it in real world terms, again the tax is the least of it.

- I never said anything about "universal islamic tolerance", and the comment on the page reads:

"After the rapid expansion of the Muslim dominion in the 7th century, Muslims leaders were required to work out a way of dealing with Non-Muslims, who remained in the majority in many areas for centuries. The solution was to develop the notion of the "dhimma", or "protected person". The Dhimmi were required to pay an extra tax, but usually they were unmolested. This compares well with the treatment meted out to non-Christians in Christian Europe. The Pact of Umar is supposed to have been the peace accord offered by the Caliph Umar to the Christians of Syria, a "pact" which formed the patter of later interaction."

This one for example.



Some examples of it's continued practice.

From Egypt



From Turkey



or



This is the result of a quick search the more you dig the more you find

- I don't care much for Mubarak, but it seems that particular law in Egypt today is a lot milder than the one back then. Not that it couldn't be better, of course. Even the copts you're refering to, who certainly don't seem like people who hold back, see recent changes as a step in the right direction.

compare this with mosques being built in the west.

- The legislation in the west is clearly more tolerant of islam than the legislation in middle-eastern countries is towards atheism or christianity. I'm not going to deny that. And I thought we were discussing history here.

Here some excerpts from Copts.net what the egyptian copts themselves have to say

You say they didn't force islam upon the copts by the sword but they did it through oppression and at times violence.
You can go read more here

- Those quotes aren't even about the same dynasty. Let's try to keep focused here.

Do you possibly think your muslim professor may see islamic history through rose coloured glasses?The stabbing of 3 worshippers is the tip of the iceberg just because western media has little interest in the plight of copts in Egypt doesn't mean all is well.

- How was that a response to what I wrote? :bugeye:

Look this is from 1998.

more

- The link doesn't go to the story.

 

[Sock puppet path]

OK I don't know I think we started off on the wrong foot, I think I misunderstood your original reply and it went from there. Maybe it's better to start from scratch.

Also I am not claiming that things were always better under christian rule either.

 

[I don't know]

i dont know, you seem like a person capable of understanding thanks for your input.

Allah swt bless you and your family.

- Thanks

I'm glad that atleast someone is able to argue these ridiculously flase points presented by these two posters.

Q and sockpuppetpath basically seem to believe that Muslims can never do good, that Muslims are evil, and any conflict involving Muslims must eb the fault of Muslims.

With this negative view on Islam baised completely on fallacies and open lies, what more is to be expected to poison whatever intellectual conversation in this forum.

- Their views aren't entirely based on fallacies and open lies. I don't think they're that stupid. I do believe them to be wrong on many issues, but their views are understandable if you'd just manage to put yourself in their shoes.

Of course, that's not really possible, but lashing out in frustration, as you seem to do here... well, while it's an entirely understandable reaction (and I do it waay to often myself, so I should know) I don't think I've ever seen it do anything good to a dialogue.

"Those who speak truth, their words are better than their silence, yet those who spread falsehood, their silence is better than their words." -Prophet Muhammad (s)

- I'd disagree with that, actually. Imo, it's better that people express their misdirected beliefs so they can be corrected.

Speaking of which Just to have some kind of idea of how you are politically, how do you these things should be dealt with?:

Homosexuality?

Apostasy?

non-heavenly religions?

and blasphemy?

Also, where do you live?

 

[Sock puppet path]

So "I don't know" quote from my post you originally commented on and tell me what you feel is mistaken.

 

[leopold]

I don't think islam is all bad, but it certainly has not been good to non-muslims and I find sharia law to be highly flawed as a system of legal redress. I don't want to live under it. If she wishes to do so, then so be it; but don't wander in and present islam as some apex of human development that we all should aspire to, when it clearly isn't. It's deceptive and nonsensical.

Geoff

i think ALL religions fall into the same catagory in regards to legal redress

 

[Buddha1]

i think ALL religions fall into the same catagory in regards to legal redress

Religions have no business running legal redress. They are supposed to be spiritual paths to reach god not the physical path to run the society. Running the society and laws is a materialistic pursuit.

It is not true that all religions meddle with legal redress. The one's that do are not really religions but ways to control people and rule them in the name of god.

God doesn't tell you what to do through books written by humans in some wierd medieval place and era. God speaks to us about its intentions through our inner nature, our inner-voice, a voice that because of fake gods humans have lost touch with.

 

[leopold]

Religions have no business running legal redress.

yes, my point exactly

 

[(Q)]

Q and sockpuppetpath basically seem to believe that Muslims can never do good, that Muslims are evil, and any conflict involving Muslims must eb the fault of Muslims.

No, Muslims are people, like everyone else, the problem is with Islam and the brainwashing it demands.

 

[Kiwi123]

How many of us think it's only a problem with a "FEW' Islamists.

 

[DiamondHearts]

I have never claimed this while you time and again blame every ill in the muslim world on the west...hypocrite.

Western elite and power structures which are imperialising Islamic world and pressuring Muslim governments to adopt policies which is detrimental to their own people.

Yeah right like you peddling hatred for gays, apostates, jews, westerners..etc etc.

I respect Jews, who are quite different from Zionists which I can never accept and who I compare to Nazis.

I never spread hatred of Westerners, but I do hold my point that the neo-colonization of Muslim lands is started by the Western power structures in Western countries who have the most power among other nations trying to keep themselves on top in their twisted status quo where all others have to suffer.

I do not hate gays as human beings, but I view homosexuality as abhorrent and unnatural and support its banning in the world.

I believe those who apostate have the right to do so in Non-Muslim country, however I believe that PUBLIC apostasy in an Islamic country should be illegal, along with evangalizing.

Peace.

hello puppet i think youy don't know much about the islamic history. all the wars fought by the muhammad (pbuh) was in self defence. though i didn't much time but i will try to give and answer to your all question.

agreed.

- Thanks

Welcome.

- Their views aren't entirely based on fallacies and open lies. I don't think they're that stupid. I do believe them to be wrong on many issues, but their views are understandable if you'd just manage to put yourself in their shoes.

Concerning their knowledge of Islam, these two individuals no nothing, yet they continue to 1. present false stereotypes as facts 2. misquote islamic texts intentionally 3. defame the image of muslims and islam in others eyes by using lies 4. racism and bigotry against any nationality or ethnicity which is Muslim by religion

We can argue about this more, however please read the posts of these two individuals on islam in this thread and real god = Allah swt thread.

I cannot understand where they are coming from because even though I myself witness atrocities in my region of the world against innocents, rapes, prison torture, and hypocrisy from western (america, european, israelis) soldiers, fireign workers, politicians, I still do not bear common hatred for all westerners. I judge people by who they are, not by their ethnicity or culture as do these people.

Of course, that's not really possible, but lashing out in frustration, as you seem to do here... well, while it's an entirely understandable reaction (and I do it waay to often myself, so I should know) I don't think I've ever seen it do anything good to a dialogue.

You should read their posts on Islam and the misinformation they give and its frequency. If this was against you, you would not like this as well. These lies and deception comes from hatred and bigotry.

- I'd disagree with that, actually. Imo, it's better that people express their misdirected beliefs so they can be corrected.

This is advice for people to better themselves, it isnt a law.

Speaking of which Just to have some kind of idea of how you are politically, how do you these things should be dealt with?:

I view myself as an Islamic revolutionary and I support the establishment of an Islamic State based on Shariah in Muslim majority areas, as is the wishes of the majority of the Muslim world. I support the establishment and strengthening of Islamic institutions and also of the overthrow of military dictatorships in the Islamic world and the fake rulers of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Homosexuality?

I believe it should be banned in all nations of the world and is a vile and disgraceful action which is against nature and has detrimental affects on society.

Apostasy?

Allowed in Non-Muslim countries, and banned if publicly displayed in Islamic countries. Private apostasy should not be punishable.

non-heavenly religions?

These religions have the right to practice and however their displayed should not be in public in an islamic state only in their temples and cities whose populations are Non-Muslim.

and blasphemy?

Should be banned against all religions like Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrain. I believe a man has the right to say Islam is false, and the Prophet was wrong, however they do not have the right to say Islam is evil or Prophet is terrorist in an Islamic state, nor do they have the right to curse Buddha or Jesus or Moses, peace to them.

Also, where do you live?

I travel often between Middle East, South Asia, West.

Peace

 

[audible]

Western elite and power structures which are imperialising Islamic world and pressuring Muslim governments to adopt policies which is detrimental to their own people.

no detrimental to the religion, not the people.

I never spread hatred of Westerners, but I do hold my point that the neo-colonization of Muslim lands is started by the Western power structures in Western countries who have the most power among other nations trying to keep themselves on top in their twisted status quo where all others have to suffer.

so should we evict/deport all the muslims in the west.

I do not hate gays as human beings, but I view homosexuality as abhorrent and unnatural and support its banning in the world.

so what would you do if one of your sons was openly gay, stone him.
people should be allowed to be what they want to be, heck your allowed to be muslim, how would you like it if islam was banned, would you stop being muslim.

I believe those who apostate have the right to do so in Non-Muslim country, however I believe that PUBLIC apostasy in an Islamic country should be illegal, along with evangalizing.

so should we tear down all the mosques in the west. thats apostasy to the xians and other religions

Concerning their knowledge of Islam, these two individuals no nothing, yet they continue to 1. present false stereotypes as facts 2. misquote islamic texts intentionally 3. defame the image of muslims and islam in others eyes by using lies 4. racism and bigotry against any nationality or ethnicity which is Muslim by religion.
We can argue about this more, however please read the posts of these two individuals on islam in this thread and real god = Allah swt thread.
I cannot understand where they are coming from because even though I myself witness atrocities in my region of the world against innocents, rapes, prison torture, and hypocrisy from western (america, european, israelis) soldiers, fireign workers, politicians, I still do not bear common hatred for all westerners. I judge people by who they are, not by their ethnicity or culture as do these people.
You should read their posts on Islam and the misinformation they give and its frequency. If this was against you, you would not like this as well. These lies and deception comes from hatred and bigotry.

but is'nt apostasy the supreme bigotry, dont you execute them.

Should be banned against all religions like Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrain. I believe a man has the right to say Islam is false, and the Prophet was wrong, however they do not have the right to say Islam is evil or Prophet is terrorist in an Islamic state, nor do they have the right to curse Buddha or Jesus or Moses, peace to them.

it's called freedom of speech, if yours is such a strong belief, it should not matter what someone says, "sick and stones will break my bones, but names can never hurt me." or are you that scared thet your religion cant handle it. a very childish atitude, on your part.

 

[I don't know]

Concerning their knowledge of Islam, these two individuals no nothing, yet they continue to 1. present false stereotypes as facts 2. misquote islamic texts intentionally 3. defame the image of muslims and islam in others eyes by using lies 4. racism and bigotry against any nationality or ethnicity which is Muslim by religion

We can argue about this more, however please read the posts of these two individuals on islam in this thread and real god = Allah swt thread.

I cannot understand where they are coming from because even though I myself witness atrocities in my region of the world against innocents, rapes, prison torture, and hypocrisy from western (america, european, israelis) soldiers, fireign workers, politicians, I still do not bear common hatred for all westerners. I judge people by who they are, not by their ethnicity or culture as do these people.

- It's very understandable, but I guess it's hard to explain to someone who hasn't lived in the west. But to take the cartoon issue as an example, I think it seems very strange for most westerners that someone who is close to "atrocities in my region of the world against innocents, rapes, prison torture" could at all care about some silly drawings.

Some explain it as misdirected rage by people who're afraid of what will happen to them if they display their rage out against their governments, I personally don't know.

You should read their posts on Islam and the misinformation they give and its frequency. If this was against you, you would not like this as well. These lies and deception comes from hatred and bigotry.

- Then you should read and become able to refute them properly through rational argumentation. Like I said, I know very well how tempting it is to lash out in righteous anger, but it really doesn't help.

This is advice for people to better themselves, it isnt a law.

- It certainly is, as you say further down:

"[Blasphemy] should be banned against all religions like Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrain. I believe a man has the right to say Islam is false, and the Prophet was wrong, however they do not have the right to say Islam is evil or Prophet is terrorist in an Islamic state, nor do they have the right to curse Buddha or Jesus or Moses, peace to them."

Now, while I appreciate the universalist attitude (though I forgot to ask you about atheism, which you don't mention), I'd like to repeat what I said above: "it's better that people express their misdirected beliefs so they can be corrected", I also think I made some other comments in the thread about the cartoons :\

I view myself as an Islamic revolutionary and I support the establishment of an Islamic State based on Shariah in Muslim majority areas, as is the wishes of the majority of the Muslim world. I support the establishment and strengthening of Islamic institutions and also of the overthrow of military dictatorships in the Islamic world and the fake rulers of Afghanistan and Iraq.

- Do you want a free-for-all democracy?

I believe it should be banned in all nations of the world and is a vile and disgraceful action which is against nature and has detrimental affects on society.

- I very much disagree, but this is another topic, so thanks for answering. I would like to point out, though, that when most westerners talk about "homosexuality" they're not talking about the act of having sexual intercourse with someone of the same sex, but merely the condition of being more attracted to members of the same sex than to members of the opposite sex. Just fyi.

Allowed in Non-Muslim countries, and banned if publicly displayed in Islamic countries. Private apostasy should not be punishable.

- Apostacy from any relligion should be banned in muslim countries? Also, what exactly do you mean by "publically displayed"?

These religions have the right to practice and however their displayed should not be in public in an islamic state only in their temples and cities whose populations are Non-Muslim.

- Oooh, here I strongly disagree. Why is this?

 

[I don't know]

So "I don't know" quote from my post you originally commented on and tell me what you feel is mistaken.

- Could you repost it, I'm not sure I know which post you're refering to.

 

[Sock puppet path]

The original post you responded to is on page 17. Looking at it now I don't think we really have a huge amount of disagreement, since you said you don't subscribe to the idea of Universal islamic tolerance. I think I mostly was confused by your opening comment here.

- erm, they spread their empire by sword, sure. Like all other emperors did, but not islam.

Which you must admit isn't one of you clearest

 

[DiamondHearts]

- It's very understandable, but I guess it's hard to explain to someone who hasn't lived in the west. But to take the cartoon issue as an example, I think it seems very strange for most westerners that someone who is close to "atrocities in my region of the world against innocents, rapes, prison torture" could at all care about some silly drawings.

you are completely wrong, I understand the view of the west, however its based on fallacies. The main objection to this cartoon is the timing and its effects on people, this cartoon was meant to inspire hatred and abuse of muslim minorities in the west and degrade a culture of people.

It's different when this insult is actually against Muslims when America and its western allies has already devasted Afghanistan and Iraq and is threatening to invade Iran, its a broader cultural war against islam.

Some explain it as misdirected rage by people who're afraid of what will happen to them if they display their rage out against their governments, I personally don't know.

it's anger at denegration of culture and heritage of 1.7 billion people,carttons are a cultural tool used to increase hatred of muslims and make support for attacks against muslims.

- Then you should read and become able to refute them properly through rational argumentation. Like I said, I know very well how tempting it is to lash out in righteous anger, but it really doesn't help.

Among other lies, these posters have proclaimed: Muslims want to enslave others, Muslims can have intercourse with babies and animals, Muslims think of non-muslims as urine, Muslims are cultists, Muslims worship the moon.

Do you expect me to be happy?

- It certainly is, as you say further down:

"[Blasphemy] should be banned against all religions like Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrain. I believe a man has the right to say Islam is false, and the Prophet was wrong, however they do not have the right to say Islam is evil or Prophet is terrorist in an Islamic state, nor do they have the right to curse Buddha or Jesus or Moses, peace to them."

Now, while I appreciate the universalist attitude (though I forgot to ask you about atheism, which you don't mention), I'd like to repeat what I said above: "it's better that people express their misdirected beliefs so they can be corrected", I also think I made some other comments in the thread about the cartoons :\

People can follow what they want. Majority of this forum is Athiest, and you see me posting on this forum and even agreeing with many of them on issues. Humans are one race.

- Do you want a free-for-all democracy?

The West and Non-Muslim world can live by whatever they choose as long as they do not kill or abuse innocents, I don't care.

The Muslim world should be governed by the laws which are popular among its people which is Islamic rule, and this our view of life, it should be reflected in our government and institutions.

- I very much disagree, but this is another topic, so thanks for answering. I would like to point out, though, that when most westerners talk about "homosexuality" they're not talking about the act of having sexual intercourse with someone of the same sex, but merely the condition of being more attracted to members of the same sex than to members of the opposite sex. Just fyi.

It's the act of confessing to it or engaging in intercourse which is punishable in the Islamic state.

The West can do whatever they want with their gays, I won't support it but I dont care if they are allowed to become this.

- Apostacy from any relligion should be banned in muslim countries? Also, what exactly do you mean by "publically displayed"?

Public apostasy is a crime in an Islamic State because it decreases Islamic propagation which is the primary focus of the state. The Islamic State only punishes those who pubicly display their apostasy and engage in preaching.

- Oooh, here I strongly disagree. Why is this?

The state is not allowed to adopt practices which discourage Muslims from Islam. Other religionists can have their festivities in non-Muslim areas and in their religious temples, which the Muslim state will allow and give money for using Jizya (military exemption tax).

Peace.

 

[Sock puppet path]

it's anger at denegration of culture and heritage of 1.7 billion people,carttons are a cultural tool used to increase hatred of muslims and make support for attacks against muslims.

Yet mysteriously I have shown you that there has been no demonstrable increase in hate crimes against muslims in the US. Jews are still almost 5x more likely to religiously motivated attacks than muslims in the US.

Among other lies, these posters have proclaimed: Muslims want to enslave others

No, you have been asked time and again is slavery wrong and yourefuse to rule out slavery on your islamic interpretation of it.

Muslims can have intercourse with babies and animals

It is in Khomeni's book, a quote

"A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. If he penetrates and the child is harmed then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however would not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl's sister."

The complete Persian text of this saying can be found in "Ayatollah Khomeini in Tahrirolvasyleh, Fourth Edition, Darol Elm, Qom"

Here you understand arabic watch this...seems to agree with that quote
Some more.

"The meat of horses, mules, or donkeys is not recommended. It is strictly forbidden if the animal was sodomized while alive by a man. In that case, the animal must be taken outside the city and sold."

Editor's notes: I wonder if it is OK to sodomize a dead animal? What happens if the buyer brings the poor animal back into the city?

"If one commits an act of sodomy with a cow, a ewe, or a camel, their urine and their excrements become impure, and even their milk may no longer be consumed. The animal must then be killed as quickly as possible and burned, and the price of it paid to its owner by him who sodomized it."

Editor's note: The poor animal first is sodomized and then killed and burned. What an Islamic justice towards animals? Where are the animal
rights group?

"It is forbidden to consume the excrement of animals or their nasal secretions. But if such are mixed in minute proportions into other foods their consumption is not forbidden."

"If a man (God protect him from it!) fornicates with an animal and ejaculates, ablution is necessary."

Editor's note: It does not say who should have ablution: the animal or the man?

You simply saying it ain't so doesn't negate it.

Do you speak Farsi? What does this say?

Muslims think of non-muslims as urine

That is from Ali Sistani's website he lists unclean things, on the list are urine, feces, and kufr.

Do you expect me to be happy?

Is it too much to expect you to be honest?