How Peaceful Is Christianity?

[Adstar]

I stated before in this thread that the judgement Jesus was talking about was the carrying out of a sentence for evil not the declaration of evil. When a judge hands down His judgement he delivers a punishment for a crime. That is the part that we are told by Jesus not to carry out.

One has to make a judgement if one is to tell someone their thoughts and deeds are against the will of God. What Jesus removed from us is the carrying out of a judgement, as in punishment for the breaking of the Law.

I know exactly what i believe, I am not two minded about this at all. The confusion is with those who can read but cannot comprehend what they read.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[SetiAlpha6]

The confusion is with those who can read but cannot comprehend what they read.

Perhaps the following is why I cannot "comprehend" what I read...

"Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
'He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.' "
(John 12:39-40)

"Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills,
and whom He wills He hardens."
(Romans 9:18)

"What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,"
(Romans 9:22)

"What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded."
(Romans 11:7)

"And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,"
(2 Thessalonians 2:11)

Perhaps I was predestined to Hell before I was even born! And perhaps God is sending me a strong delusion now so I will believe a lie and not be saved!

Adstar, why would it ever be necessary for God to blind anyone to the truth?

 

[Jeff 152]

Evangelical religions like christianity and Islam are the ultimate cause of almost all violence. Period.

 

[Adstar]

Perhaps the following is why I cannot "comprehend" what I read...

"Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
'He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.' "
(John 12:39-40)

"Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills,
and whom He wills He hardens."
(Romans 9:18)

"What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,"
(Romans 9:22)

"What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded."
(Romans 11:7)

"And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,"
(2 Thessalonians 2:11)

Perhaps I was predestined to Hell before I was even born! And perhaps God is sending me a strong delusion now so I will believe a lie and not be saved!

Adstar, why would it ever be necessary for God to blind anyone to the truth?

Yes maybe God has hardened your heart and blinded you to understanding. But He only does that to lock out those who have already hardened their hearts and refused to come in.

You should read the story of Moses and Pharaoh. If you do you will see how pharaoh first rejected God twice and hardened His own heart before God locked him into that state so as to use him for His greater purpose.

You have quoted 2 Thessalonians 2:11 well if you had posted the next verse with it you may have found out why.

2 Thessalonians 2
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

See, their is always a reason.

But it is not surprising to me that a person that has rejected the truth will latch on to the calvinistic interpretation of Predestination (or "Unconditional Election" as they like to call it) to remove guilt from themselves and proclaim God to be the big bad man who made them reject the truth. But the truth is Gods predestination comes from His foreknowledge of our will. That word is critical to understanding predestination.

1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[SnakeLord]

Yes maybe God has hardened your heart and blinded you to understanding. But He only does that to lock out those who have already hardened their hearts and refused to come in.

While that might serve as a (rather weak) response, I don't see how you can possibly think that's moral or acceptable behaviour. In the case of the pharoah, he wanted to let the slaves go, but god wanted to get his jollies by causing more disease, death and destruction for no good reason. Look at it from the pharoah's point of view - some guy comes up and says to free his people.. even you wouldn't listen to him. Then he comes back and performs some supposed 'miracles' that even your friends can perform. You'd still tell the guy to piss off. The only time you might free these people is when this guy performs a 'magic trick' that you cannot reproduce. None of that justifies the slaughter of innocent new born Egyptians, (yes I know first born includes people of all ages - but invariably also includes 3 month old babies).

I'm curious, what exactly is your justification for such a thing?

Further to that, it could probably also be said that there was a time when you didn't believe in gods. Why was your heart not hardened, and would you consider it acceptable behaviour if it was?

 

[Jaster Mereel]

Evangelical religions like christianity and Islam are the ultimate cause of almost all violence. Period.

People who say things like this have absolutely no understanding of almost all of history. Period.

 

[Adstar]

While that might serve as a (rather weak) response, I don't see how you can possibly think that's moral or acceptable behaviour. In the case of the pharoah, he wanted to let the slaves go, but god wanted to get his jollies by causing more disease, death and destruction for no good reason. Look at it from the pharoah's point of view - some guy comes up and says to free his people.. even you wouldn't listen to him. Then he comes back and performs some supposed 'miracles' that even your friends can perform. You'd still tell the guy to piss off. The only time you might free these people is when this guy performs a 'magic trick' that you cannot reproduce. None of that justifies the slaughter of innocent new born Egyptians, (yes I know first born includes people of all ages - but invariably also includes 3 month old babies).

I'm curious, what exactly is your justification for such a thing?

God owns us. We are His property. We are created He is the Creator. Therefore God can do as He pleases with His property. God uses us all, Even those who rebel against Him and oppose Him, All the efforts and deeds of those who oppose God have been worked into His eternal plan. God used Pharaoh’s rebellion against His will to bring about the freeing of the Jews from Egypt through an undeniable intervention of God. Moses did not free the Jews nor did Pharaoh let them go, Nor did the Jews free themselves. It was done by God in a way that showed all of them that it was all His doing.

Pharaoh was given a undeniable sign and even asked moses to ask God to remove the plague but when God did remove the plague Pharaoh hardened His own heart again. Pharaoh knew He was dealing with God but still tried to keep his slaves out of greed.

Exodus 8[/B
8Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron, and said, "Entreat the LORD that He may take away the frogs from me and from my people; and I will let the people go, that they may sacrifice to the LORD."

9And Moses said to Pharaoh, "Accept the honor of saying when I shall intercede for you, for your servants, and for your people, to destroy the frogs from you and your houses, that they may remain in the river only."

10So he said, "Tomorrow." And he said, "Let it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the LORD our God. 11And the frogs shall depart from you, from your houses, from your servants, and from your people. They shall remain in the river only."

12Then Moses and Aaron went out from Pharaoh. And Moses cried out to the LORD concerning the frogs which He had brought against Pharaoh. 13So the LORD did according to the word of Moses. And the frogs died out of the houses, out of the courtyards, and out of the fields. 14They gathered them together in heaps, and the land stank. 15But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the LORD had said.

Further to that, it could probably also be said that there was a time when you didn't believe in gods. Why was your heart not hardened, and would you consider it acceptable behaviour if it was?

I read the message and believed. I read the message and was convicted of my own inability to justify myself. I read the message and cried with joy that God was a loving God who made it possible for a sinner like me to be justified by Gods righteousness, to be saved from eternal destruction. I agreed with the will of God that it is Good and proper.

If i had read the Message and mocked it in my heart. If i had read the Message and hated the will of God. If i had read the message of Jesus and declared it madness. Then yes it would have been acceptable for God to block my mind from the knowledge of salvation and use me as a vassal of wrath.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[SnakeLord]

God owns us. We are His property. We are created He is the Creator. Therefore God can do as He pleases with His property.

I knew you were going to say exactly that before I even made my post - but what you unfortunately fail to recognise is that the 'right' to do something because you own it, and whether that act is 'right', (as in moral), are two completely different things. You young Adstar have overlooked one of them.

I own a frog. It has no say in anything because it's just a lowly, brainless frog. It is my property. I can squelch it with a shovel if I so choose, or microwave the critter with my evening custard but that does not make the ability or right to do so moral. I guess we can now finally understand why this god of yours was so adamant that man not eat the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.

God uses us all, Even those who rebel against Him and oppose Him, All the efforts and deeds of those who oppose God have been worked into His eternal plan.

Well that's free will down the shitter.

God used Pharaoh’s rebellion against His will to bring about the freeing of the Jews from Egypt through an undeniable intervention of God.

Well, thats free will "undeniably" down the shitter.

Pharaoh was given a undeniable sign and even asked moses to ask God to remove the plague but when God did remove the plague Pharaoh hardened His own heart again.

So Aaron stretched out his hand over the waters of Egypt, and the frogs came up and covered the land of Egypt. But by their spells the magicians did the same.

It wasn't that much of a magic trick - and at this stage no valid reason for pharoah to give a shit. Now yes, as you say he did speak to Moses - but clearly just to get Moses out of his face - and at this moment in time there was absolutely nothing to compel pharoah to care.

If someone came in to your house now and said "allah has told me to come to you and give me your TV set", would you? Of course not, you'd tell him to get on his bike. This is no different. A guy goes up to another guy that believes in different gods, does some tricks that even a bloody human can do and expects results? Please..

Your god, in his infinite wisdom, should have done some more powerful magic tricks no? Ones that would have made pharoah understand and release the jews straight away - thus preventing countless numbers of needless deaths.

I read the message and believed.

Ah, an easily persuaded individual. Had you have read the koran first you'd now be assuring us all that allah's real. Oh well, I know where to send the hoover salesmen.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Yes maybe God has hardened your heart and blinded you to understanding. But He only does that to lock out those who have already hardened their hearts and refused to come in.

Then perhaps He is working in direct opposition to you even now. You are trying to save me while He is preventing me from being saved.

You have quoted 2 Thessalonians 2:11 well if you had posted the next verse with it you may have found out why.

2 Thessalonians 2
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

See, their is always a reason.

But they are all condemned already. Why does God have to lock them into a position of unbelief and actually prevent them from ever repenting and from ever being saved?

Unfortunately, all Christians still have pleasure in unrighteousness. "None are righteous."

But it is not surprising to me that a person that has rejected the truth will latch on to the calvinistic interpretation of Predestination (or "Unconditional Election" as they like to call it) to remove guilt from themselves and proclaim God to be the big bad man who made them reject the truth. But the truth is Gods predestination comes from His foreknowledge of our will. That word is critical to understanding predestination.

1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

I am not now, nor have I ever been a Calvinist. I quoted the Bible to you not the writings of John Calvin. The Bible also claims in contradiction to your view that God goes after His lost sheep and will not give up until He finds them and brings them home.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. (Luke 15:4-7)

It also makes the contradicting claim that:

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

The following must be false as well!

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

He really does not desire ALL men to be saved does He! He really takes a very active roll in preventing many of them from ever finding the truth. They have no hope now and they have never really had any hope at all to begin with.

I still do not get it! Why is there ever any need for God to prevent someone from understanding the truth and from being saved?

Peace!

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Here are more problems:

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

Compare this to:

"Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
'He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.' "
(John 12:39-40)

Adstar, who is the “god of this age”? Is it not Satan? Are God and Satan then working toward the same purpose? Are they not both in the same business of deceiving and blinding men?

How is it ever possible for God to deceive or lie to a person and still remain righteous and moral? I thought it was impossible for God to lie? Are we supposed to follow His "righteous" example and lie to others as well?

Thank You

 

[Adstar]

Then perhaps He is working in direct opposition to you even now. You are trying to save me while He is preventing me from being saved.

Let me make one thing clear, When i reply to a post on this forum i am not necessarily replying to the poster who posted the post. I am replying for the people who are following the thread while also still being open to the love of the truth. The undecided if you like. So irrespective of you state of being or what i might believe your state of being is i will reply to a post when i feel drawn to reply.

But they are all condemned already. Why does God have to lock them into a position of unbelief and actually prevent them from ever repenting and from ever being saved?

Because He knows they will never repent and accept His will. It's not so much locking them out, it’s giving them over to deception. As the Thessalonians scriptures states:

2 Thessalonians 2
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

So if ones heart is set against the Love of The Truth. God gives that person over to be used by the agent of satan. Lawless one/anti christ. Because even satan in his conspiracy is being used by God. So satan and those who a like minded too satan are placed on to the path of destruction.

Unfortunately, all Christians still have pleasure in unrighteousness. "None are righteous."

One cannot have pleasure in unrighteousness if one feels guilty about what they have done. While sin is enticing for some it leads to regret while others take joy in it. Once again it is not about performance or being a goody goody, its about agreeing with God and being righteous in Spirit.

Romans 7
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.Romans 8 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

I am not now, nor have I ever been a Calvinist. I quoted the Bible to you not the writings of John Calvin.

Your conclusions in reference to the scripture you quoted where indeed calvinistic. I have had many a long and sometimes passionate discussions with hard core calvanists and let me assure you they have the same mindset on the issue of predestination as you do.

The Bible also claims in contradiction to your view that God goes after His lost sheep and will not give up until He finds them and brings them home.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. (Luke 15:4-7)

This is similar to the parable of the prodigal son. God does seek out those who fall away but only those open to conviction will accept His call again. God does not endlessly try to bring a person back into the fold. Like pharaoh he will knock a few times and then thats it, He is gone. and those who once had limited wisdom lose what little they had.

It also makes the contradicting claim that:

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

This scripture is saying that God does not will for any person or group should perish and that salvation is open to all mankind. This is a statement of intent not a statement that He will not allow anyone to perish. This scripture supports my anti-calvanist stance. So any statement that says a person never had a chance to embrace the Messiah Jesus as their Redeemer just does not conform to this scripture.

The following must be false as well!

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

Once again. The desire of God can be resisted and when God has been repeatedly and stubornly resisted then the resistor is given over to deception.

He really does not desire ALL men to be saved does He! He really takes a very active roll in preventing many of them from ever finding the truth. They have no hope now and they have never really had any hope at all to begin with.

See here is you 100% calvanistic conclusion:
"they have never really had any hope at all to begin with."

This is dead wrong. They did and you do. But God already knew if they would take the hope being offered and He knows if you will take the hope being offered.

I still do not get it! Why is there ever any need for God to prevent someone from understanding the truth and from being saved?

Peace!

He does not withhold the truth, He gives out the truth but he withholds the path to salvation from those who reject the truth. Because it is His will to save those who reply to His will with repentance and meekness not the rebellious and proud who reply with hate and anger.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Here are more problems:

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe , lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

There ya go thanks for the scriptures. See how it says "who do not believe" So they do not believe the truth and what are they being blinded too? the Gospel. and what is the Gospel? the message of salvation through the work of the Messiah Jesus on the cross.

God does not want salvation to come to those who hate the truth, but at the same time He does not force people to reject the truth, but blinds those who reject the truth to the path of salvation that would save them.

Compare this to:

"Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
'He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.' "
(John 12:39-40)

You really are knowledgeable in the scriptures arn't you. Its a tragedy you know so much yet at the same time understand so little.

Adstar, who is the “god of this age”? Is it not Satan? Are God and Satan then working toward the same purpose? Are they not both in the same business of deceiving and blinding men?

Yes i believe satan is "the god of this age" and he is a great deceiver and has and is working to blind those who are given over to deception. But satan is like a muslim suicide bomber, he is heading to the lake of fire and he wants to take as many men with him when he goes. satan wants as many people as he can get but God is only willing to give over the people who have the same spirit as satan has.

How is it ever possible for God to deceive or lie to a person and still remain righteous and moral? I thought it was impossible for God to lie? Are we supposed to follow His "righteous" example and lie to others as well?

Thank You

God does not lie. But He gives people who reject the truth over to a lie.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[nova900]

There ya go thanks for the scriptures. See how it says "who do not believe" So they do not believe the truth and what are they being blinded too? the Gospel. and what is the Gospel? the message of salvation through the work of the Messiah Jesus on the cross.

God does not want salvation to come to those who hate the truth, but at the same time He does not force people to reject the truth, but blinds those who reject the truth to the path of salvation that would save them.



You really are knowledgeable in the scriptures arn't you. Its a tragedy you know so much yet at the same time understand so little.





Yes i believe satan is "the god of this age" and he is a great deceiver and has and is working to blind those who are given over to deception. But satan is like a muslim suicide bomber, he is heading to the lake of fire and he wants to take as many men with him when he goes. satan wants as many people as he can get but God is only willing to give over the people who have the same spirit as satan has.





God does not lie. But He gives people who reject the truth over to a lie.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

In other words Seti Alpha....more nonsense and contradictions for you to try and comprehend !


**All praise to a portion of the Ancient Days! **

 

[SetiAlpha6]

There ya go thanks for the scriptures. See how it says "who do not believe" So they do not believe the truth and what are they being blinded too? the Gospel. and what is the Gospel? the message of salvation through the work of the Messiah Jesus on the cross.

Adstar, please look at this with me one more time. I don't think you are really looking at it very carefully.

"Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
'He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.' "
(John 12:39-40)

Why is it that they do not believe according to the text? Because they "could not believe". And why is it that they "could not believe"? Because God "blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts".

Why did He blind their eyes and harden their hearts?

"Lest they should see with their eyes". To prevent any possibility that they would "see with their eyes" since the real possibility actually exists that they might "see with their eyes" if not for being blinded by God. Can't have that!

And also, "lest they should understand with their hearts and turn". To prevent any possibility that they would "understand" and would "turn" or in other words, would repent, since the real possibility actually exists that they might "understand" and might "turn" and might repent if not for being blinded by God. Can't have that either!

Why? Because then Jesus might actually "heal them", since this real possibility actually exists as well? I guess, we can't have any repentant, healed sinners walking around the earth, now can we? I always thought that this was supposed to be a good thing! Guess I was wrong again!

Thank you for your patience anyway!

(P.S. Time for another "Bible Fight" post Roman)

 

[Adstar]

It’s like a stair case.

One must be willing to take the first step before they can access the second step. If people refuse to take the first step that they can see, then they will be blinded to the last step they need to take to get to the level they want to be.

The blinding has never been a total blinding. People can see the first steps, they just refuse to take it.

A person must believe that God is true
A person must desire to be true
A person must realise that they are not true
A person must realise they cannot make themselves true
A person must believe God can make them true



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Jeff 152]

People who say things like this have absolutely no understanding of almost all of history. Period.

Really? I cant beliive I actually have to justify this, but here goes

With the fall of the Roman Empire, the librarian of Alexandria was pulled off her carriage and skinned alive. Literacy dropped. Even the Pope had to have the Bible read to him. In the first crusade, Christians killed tens of thousands of people they called "infidels". The Children's Crusade (1212) caused the deaths of nearly 50,000 children. Preachers sentenced to death and executed thousands during the Inquisition (1233-1834) for heresy and witchcraft. There were the Salem witch trials (1692) in America. The 17th Century Thirty Years War (Catholics v. protestants) wiped out tens of millions in Europe. In the Taiping Rebellion in China in the 1850's a Christian cult started a war that resulted in the slaughter of twenty million people. In the Holocaust six million Jews were murdered. Muslims and Christians in Bosnia reached a death toll of over 250,000.

also conflict in the middle east (shiites, sunnis, jews. kurds, everyone fighting over religion)

Seriously I cant believe I even had to justify this. Note I did not say religion casues all wars, war can be casued by any number of reasons, i simply said that religion causes many wars and violent conflicts

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Yes maybe God has hardened your heart and blinded you to understanding. But He only does that to lock out those who have already hardened their hearts and refused to come in.

You should read the story of Moses and Pharaoh. If you do you will see how pharaoh first rejected God twice and hardened His own heart before God locked him into that state so as to use him for His greater purpose.

You have quoted 2 Thessalonians 2:11 well if you had posted the next verse with it you may have found out why.

2 Thessalonians 2
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

See, their is always a reason.

But it is not surprising to me that a person that has rejected the truth will latch on to the calvinistic interpretation of Predestination (or "Unconditional Election" as they like to call it) to remove guilt from themselves and proclaim God to be the big bad man who made them reject the truth. But the truth is Gods predestination comes from His foreknowledge of our will. That word is critical to understanding predestination.

1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

*************
M*W: Adstar, please... Let's assume for one brief moment that there was a god. Why would this omnipotent creator god create the human race with some folks who don't understand or believe that he existed? Your logic spins my brain. Hearts are hardened because there are no true answers. Therefore, there is no truth to what you say.

When you speak of Pharaoh, you are talking about sun worship or monotheism. I don't understand why it is so difficult for you people to be so narrow minded as to believe the false version of the bible. The bible has only one meaning -- astro-theology. Everything written in the bible refers to the zodiac, the timing of the universe, and astrological symbols.

The "Messiah Jesus" is just another name for the "sun." You are worshipping the sun, nothing more. There was no human being who was known as the "Messiah Jesus." There was no messiah, yet there were many claims of messiahs in that time. Still, no one can prove the existence of this so-called "Jesus."

If there were a creator, he would not have "hardened" anyone's heart. That would defeat his purpose for creating mankind. Otherwise, he would be a selfish god, which he actually claimed to be, but now we all know those were the words of the Code of Hammurabi, not Moses, not god, not Jesus, not any living person.

Tell me, Adstar, why are you really here? What is your ulterior motive to spread your foolish beliefs on sciforums?

 

[falcon22]

Ahem. Hitler was a Christian.

http://www.evilbible.com/hitler_was_christian.htm

 

[baumgarten]

Ahem. Hitler was a Christian.

http://www.evilbible.com/hitler_was_christian.htm

False information on the internet?! Impossible!

 

[mspenguin1974]

sure, lets see what their guide book says
www.evilbible.com
you say you dont follow that book to the letter? how can you be a True xian then?

and since you'll all no doubt start knocking the atheists pov lets see what their perspective on life is
www.atheists.org

Excellent links! Some of my favorite Jesus quotes are:

Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has “come not to send peace, but a sword.” Matthew 10:34

Jesus says, “Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace on earth! No, rather a sword lf you love your father, mother, sister, brother, more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. “The real beauty of this verse is that Jesus demands people truly love him more then they love their own family. I ask you how can we love someone that we can not see or interact with? Love is an emotion pertaining to physical existence not to faithful ideologies, yet God threatens you with Death just because your love for your mother maybe stronger than your love for him. Matthew 10:34

Families will be torn apart because of Jesus. “Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." Matthew 10:21

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. Matthew 5:17

(Please open your Bibles to Numbers 31) The following verses are a classic example of wholesale slaughter and rape under the direction of the same God they claim to be so merciful. A quick sample of this tale: On the way to the promised land, God had Moses wage a war campaign against the Midian. Moses was told to put every Midianite to death, plunder anything of value, set fire to their towns where they lived and all their encampments. Moses gave the orders to his troops (the sons of Israel) and went on a further campaign. On the return of his troops Moses was enraged with the commanders of the army. He said, “Why have you spared the life of all the women and children? You are to kill all the children and kill all the women who have slept with a man. The lord says spare the lives only of the young girls who have not slept with a man, and take them for yourselves, so that we may multiply into a great nation.”

Don't forget another great link:
http://www.exposingchristianity.com