*************
M*W: I kinda like the 'stardust' theory.
M*W: I kinda like the 'stardust' theory.
How life on earth started?
- Thread starter albertchong1999
- Start date
talk about discontinuity.
well at least skin didn't delete my posts, only moved them.
my posts in this thread were moved from the atheism=theism thread.
i think i gave a valid argument as to what atheists believe without proof, much like a theist does. it seems skin disagrees.
well at least skin didn't delete my posts, only moved them.
my posts in this thread were moved from the atheism=theism thread.
i think i gave a valid argument as to what atheists believe without proof, much like a theist does. it seems skin disagrees.
You present the possibility that aliens created Earthians but the aliens had to be created thus aliens must be created by a god.
Not surprisingly, you miss what nearly all theists miss. If we MUST have been created & the aliens MUST have been created THEN the god MUST have been created. The same reasoning applied to humans & aliens MUST be applied to the god or there's no reasoning to it.
1111
Not surprisingly, you miss what nearly all theists miss. If we MUST have been created & the aliens MUST have been created THEN the god MUST have been created. The same reasoning applied to humans & aliens MUST be applied to the god or there's no reasoning to it.
1111
Theists think pointing out "flaws" in science or "atheist beliefs" prop up religion. It doesn't. If scientists turn out to be wrong about some things, that doesn't indicate existence of gods.
The main issue in all this is whether gods exist & whether those who proudly proclaim gods exist can & will show proof. That's it. Even in the infancy of science long ago, the burden of proof concerning gods is upon those who claim gods exist.
Regardless of exactly how life started on Earth or anywhere in the universe, if you claim it was caused by gods, you should show proof that they exist.
1111
The main issue in all this is whether gods exist & whether those who proudly proclaim gods exist can & will show proof. That's it. Even in the infancy of science long ago, the burden of proof concerning gods is upon those who claim gods exist.
Regardless of exactly how life started on Earth or anywhere in the universe, if you claim it was caused by gods, you should show proof that they exist.
1111
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
There is some evidence for it.
Invoking some supernatural entity to explain to origin of life is completely uncalled for, and frankly seems a bit retarded to me.
What is wrong with admitting that we don't exactly how life started ? No need to make up a cause..
river-wind
Valued Senior Member
Maybe some do, but it's pretty ignorant to assume that most of us rely on nothing more than faith to assume the likelihood of abiogenisis.
Everything from crystal formation & self-organization to the ability of RNA to self-replicate outside a cell to the existance and behavior of prions to Urey-Miller (and the recent re-analysis which found even more amino bases in the result samples) to the very binding and folding behavior of basic chemical compounds suggest that life can form from otherwise non-living matter.
Nothing but a belief that some super-natural force did it all suggests that abiogenisis is *not* how life arose - something for which there is even less repeatable and verifiable evidence.
Emnos
there is?
calling upon empiricism to determine the origin of life is completely retarded
For an empiricist, nothing wrong what so ever ...
If only empiricists would heed your call (sigh)
atheists may have no knowledge of how life started,
but thats hardly comparable to theists Faith that some dog did it!...after all no one knows for certain.
however from all the evidence for evolution we can honestly say we know where we came from ,and it disproves biblical creation fairy tale completely,
thats why so many brainwashed xians fight tooth and nail against evolutionary FACTS
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html
http://www.freeratio.org/vbb/forumdisplay.php?f=66
and once you accept that evolution is the Truth and that complicated lifeforms come from simpler ones you come to the same conclusion that it all came about naturally.
accept something with no proof? accept something simply because someone said so?
no thanks.
Itself.
Awesome.
If you all think that we all evoluted from simple cell lifeform, do you found any evidence to support your evolution theory? the answer is NO because you can't prove that in laboratory or witnessed by other, you can't find a bacteria or a single cell life that will enlarge in size and form insect,it only a theory,theory, theory that accept by others, only considered a believe in evolution theory that someone suggest it. same as me believe in GOD create it, it is purely theory, you said it create from big bang, volcanic activities, thunderbolt, asteriods strike, accidental combination of all element together to form DNA and human is all theories that accepted by others. Remember, all those only theories without hard evidence.
the whole world believe that earth is flat before because many saw the ship dissappear in the sealine, it is only logic of what they think is right. it shows that how many out there are idiot. But there is only one logical thinking person dare to challenge it because he observed that ship will suddenly disappear if there is 90 degree turn, and he observed that the ship disappear slowly and steadily.from that logic he think that there must be a curvature. this is logic simple solution yet most of them dont see it,it is not science but logic test..
theory of evolution is applicable to existing life form only. for example human evolution is changes made within DNA when there is external forces or disease that tell DNA to suit the changing environment. but some changes may not sound perfect. such as if we have heart disease problem due to environment factor like the food we eat, our DNA pattern will suit those changes and it bring down to your offspring, this applicable to all kinds of life on earth in order to survive the ever changing environment including the body shape formation. those complicated DNA changes is preset by GOD and not you or anybody else.
One thing for sure, you can't relate the theory of evolution to building human block from single cell or bacteria and form the body now you are enjoying, that is the biggest mistake. How dare can you expected that a carbon dust or bacteria can form a highly sophisticated lifeform. there must be someone create all those thing, even the most brilliant scientist also can't create bacteria, so how can you?
even before life is existed in the universe, there is only abundance of death element such as carbon etc. do u think those elements can regroup themselves automatically and form a life? do u think that is so simple? life got soul but those element don't have, do u see ghost at night before? many saw it. do u believe in ghost and GOD and alien UFO? then u need to do more thinking. if u think all the element can mix it and form bacteria, then u try to make it in laboratory using all element in periodic table to mix it until you finally get it.... before anybody can confirm it whether there is alien exist in our universe recently, i already have the answer 10 years ago, and the answer suit me, that is YES, there ia someone out there. this is logic, not science content. just think it logically, does the black hole will ever warp you to other space time? that is simply nonsence. it is fictonal, if u have a chance to try it out, then hopefully u can fly to black hole. and i bet you will be dead crushed by gravity. then i buy coffin for you.
you need to use logic thinking to understand the surrounding. science and mathematics sometime is hard to explain certain things. things like ghost existence, aliens existence, formation of life, human sixth sense,etc can't be explained by science and math.. you all are overwhelmed by theory. Even non-life on earth like wind,soil, fire, rain,water,circulation,lights,atom particles,sound,etc all exist in coincident? all exist by revolution theory? even 10 years old kids also know GOD create it.. if you don believe me then ask your children if you are christian..
are you a christian? all christian should have faith with jesus christ... then do u believe Jesus Christ? can you use science and math to explain jesus existence? if you are still a christian then i hope you don't go to church because you are science fanatic. even i am not a church goer and i still believe GOD create everything. your remark hurt millions christian believer. Or you are muslim or buddist? try to think logiclally, science on earth is not everything. just a small peanut, if alien trying to invade earth they can destroy the earth population in just minutes. so don think your science is powerful and universal. don't think F-22 Raptor or nuclear bomb can defend our earth from alien invasion. earth science just only the tip of an iceberg. GOD knows every formulae that human hardly can comprehend. because you are not GOD
Finally, evolution theory just only a theory, not yet proven. So don't be serious about that.. many suggested theories on earth is not true.
the whole world believe that earth is flat before because many saw the ship dissappear in the sealine, it is only logic of what they think is right. it shows that how many out there are idiot. But there is only one logical thinking person dare to challenge it because he observed that ship will suddenly disappear if there is 90 degree turn, and he observed that the ship disappear slowly and steadily.from that logic he think that there must be a curvature. this is logic simple solution yet most of them dont see it,it is not science but logic test..
theory of evolution is applicable to existing life form only. for example human evolution is changes made within DNA when there is external forces or disease that tell DNA to suit the changing environment. but some changes may not sound perfect. such as if we have heart disease problem due to environment factor like the food we eat, our DNA pattern will suit those changes and it bring down to your offspring, this applicable to all kinds of life on earth in order to survive the ever changing environment including the body shape formation. those complicated DNA changes is preset by GOD and not you or anybody else.
One thing for sure, you can't relate the theory of evolution to building human block from single cell or bacteria and form the body now you are enjoying, that is the biggest mistake. How dare can you expected that a carbon dust or bacteria can form a highly sophisticated lifeform. there must be someone create all those thing, even the most brilliant scientist also can't create bacteria, so how can you?
even before life is existed in the universe, there is only abundance of death element such as carbon etc. do u think those elements can regroup themselves automatically and form a life? do u think that is so simple? life got soul but those element don't have, do u see ghost at night before? many saw it. do u believe in ghost and GOD and alien UFO? then u need to do more thinking. if u think all the element can mix it and form bacteria, then u try to make it in laboratory using all element in periodic table to mix it until you finally get it.... before anybody can confirm it whether there is alien exist in our universe recently, i already have the answer 10 years ago, and the answer suit me, that is YES, there ia someone out there. this is logic, not science content. just think it logically, does the black hole will ever warp you to other space time? that is simply nonsence. it is fictonal, if u have a chance to try it out, then hopefully u can fly to black hole. and i bet you will be dead crushed by gravity. then i buy coffin for you.
you need to use logic thinking to understand the surrounding. science and mathematics sometime is hard to explain certain things. things like ghost existence, aliens existence, formation of life, human sixth sense,etc can't be explained by science and math.. you all are overwhelmed by theory. Even non-life on earth like wind,soil, fire, rain,water,circulation,lights,atom particles,sound,etc all exist in coincident? all exist by revolution theory? even 10 years old kids also know GOD create it.. if you don believe me then ask your children if you are christian..
are you a christian? all christian should have faith with jesus christ... then do u believe Jesus Christ? can you use science and math to explain jesus existence? if you are still a christian then i hope you don't go to church because you are science fanatic. even i am not a church goer and i still believe GOD create everything. your remark hurt millions christian believer. Or you are muslim or buddist? try to think logiclally, science on earth is not everything. just a small peanut, if alien trying to invade earth they can destroy the earth population in just minutes. so don think your science is powerful and universal. don't think F-22 Raptor or nuclear bomb can defend our earth from alien invasion. earth science just only the tip of an iceberg. GOD knows every formulae that human hardly can comprehend. because you are not GOD
Finally, evolution theory just only a theory, not yet proven. So don't be serious about that.. many suggested theories on earth is not true.
Last edited:
river-wind
Valued Senior Member
There are mountains of evidence to support evolution, including in-lab speciation, so the answer is YES.
Do you or a friend of yours own a dog or eat corn? Thank evolution as directed by selective breeding for thousands of generations.
Have you ever taken antibiotics? If it weren't for modern germ theory as an offshoot of evolutionary theory you'd be dead right now.
Your conclusion is flawed because your starting premise is inaccurate. There is significant evidence to support both the theories of evolution and abiogenisis (they are two distinct theories - if you cannot learn to separate them, you will do very little for your own arguments against them). The combination of chemical structures is not accidental. If things happened by accident, then abiogenisis and evolution would be stupidly preposterous.
Luckily for us all, we're not dealing with accidents, we're dealing with physical chemical structures with different bonding potentials.
But then when those ships returned (having not fallen off the earth), many people of the time realized that the earth was not flat for that very same reason. Columbus was not the originator of the round-earth theory.
Keep in mind that the authors of the bible describe the earth as a disk - as flat; and yet for some reason you still feel that they are infallible, or that other unverifiable 'truths' they describe are correct.
Science is a real-world methodology for applying a structural rigor to logical tests of the natural world. The science in your example would be (after having seen, or "observed", ships disappear over the supposed edge only to return) repeatedly taking a ship out past that point yourself and returning safely, while a posted observer on the shore confirms that you sailed out of sight and then came back.
Whoever taught you the modern theories on evolution failed miserably. No wonder you don't think it makes any sense; your understanding of it is broken.
The anti-appeal to authority. This is a logically flawed argument, suggesting that if man cannot create life, then life cannot be created through abiogenisis. You are not countering the possibility, you are pointing out mankind's current limitations - these two things are not connected.
Given that man can, through selective breeding, create different types of plants and animals, are you saying that evolution clearly is correct?
Translating "death elements such as carbon" to what I assume you mean - "non-living matter": yes. Do you know what a photo-sensitive lipid bi-layer is?
They are spheres of fatty acids which spontaneously form in water/fatty acid solutions; they consume, they reproduce, they react to light by "swimming" away - but they are not quite alive. They don't have an internal metabolism, nor do they have any hereditary information, internal structure or homeostasis. They are simply a self-organizing collection of molecules that, based on the hydrophobic/hydrophillic layout of their atomic makeup, like forming spheres in water solutions.
Simple. And a step towards spontaneous life from non-living matter.
Add some self-structuring crystal material or self-replicating RNA, and you've got a proto-cell.
Please provide evidence that living things have a soul, or other intrinsic property unique to life that is not imparted by the collection and order of it's non-living constituent matter.
This is not science, I agree - this is one personal anecdote. Logically, since one personal account without external validation is as likely to be supernatural as it is to be hallucination, it should not be considered as proof in this discussion, by you or anyone else.
I understand that a personal experience can be very powerful, but to claim that "I experienced it, so it is true" is to define yourself as infallible, and therefore god in your own right.
Despite the fact that I agree with you on the point of black holes and timespace warps, the argument "that is simply nonsense" has no place in logical debate.
*Why* is it nonsense? What have we observed about likely black holes that suggest this isn't possible? What in the predictive equations suggestion that it's impossible? How accurate have those particular equations been in predicting celestial behavior? Could they be wrong?
Don't waste my time *telling* me I'm wrong, *show* me why I'm wrong.
1) There is some evidence that non-physical consciousness may exist. And lots of lacking evidence suggesting that it either doesn't, or is so unpredictable in its influence on this plane of existance as to be unimportant. Are you 100% sure your personal experiences are true? Not colored by imagination or external confusion?
2) Anything that effects the universe in steady repeatable ways will eventually fall under the understanding of scientific study. Nothing in science excludes aliens, additional senses, ghosts, or even God. Those things just have shown themselves lacking any really likely chance of existing or interacting with us in a fashion that can be reliably detected.
No.
By what? If you mean by evolutionary theory, then no. The existance of non-living matter has absolutely nothing to do with the current theories of how evolution works.
Children believe what they are told, especially if they are not taught the critical thinking skills needed to asses the validity of the stories given to them. God to the toothfairy to "who took the cookies?", children are not a universally reliable source of information.
I was raised Christian, and I think Jesus most likely existed, though the stories about him are most likely exaggerated, given how many of them are ripped off from surrounding religions of the time. I think his teachings were generally awesome, and for the most part (early racism aside) I am a big fan.
This has NOTHING, 0, zilch, nothing to do with scientific inquiry. Science produces useful models explaining the natural world. If god or jesus wants to show up and fiddle with things that's perfectly cool. We'll add them into the models of the universe, observe what they do and try and figure out some manner of working in "God did it" too. But after thousands of years of study, even starting from the premise that "God did it" must be the foundation of all understanding, we have mostly come to realize that nothing seems to require that God was actually needed to do it.
That's fine. Why do you believe god created everything? Justify your faith.
Science is a description of the natural world. It is understanding and knowledge. Designing and building F-22s is engineering, which uses the knowledge of metallurgy and physics described by science.
Human hubris is sadly common, but has nothing to do with the usefulness of science in understanding the universe in which we live.
Neither are you. Please stop acting like you have divine insight into Truth.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080124175924.htm
Last edited:
It wasn't chance, it was evolution from simpler forms. This is the opposite of chance. For a billion years or so, life appeared to be nothing more surprising than small geological formations like this:
That's where we came from. "God" is an answer that only appeals to the ignorant.
I disagree. I would not say "only", I would use "often".
I see there is evidence of life evolving, and I accept it. I also wish God existed, like I wish magic existed. Life beyond this life is comforting.
So you could say that God is an answer to the insecure, ignorant, frightened, troubled, needy people.
There are many reasons to believe in a god other than the stereotypical. I mean Christianity is a club where most are accepted into without any credit checks.
Plenty.
There is other evidence. It does take a long, long time.
No, it is a fact and a theory, one of the most well-supported theories in the history of science.
No, DNA came later. Abiogenesis is the study of the origins of life, not evolution. Evolution explains speciation.
Actually, most people knew the world was round from the time of the Greek civilization.
Then you fail to understand how evolution really works.
I dare. Your argument is called "argument from incredulity". You just don't want to apply logic to the problem. You WANT to believe in God for some reason.
Yes, of course. The universe created itself too.
There is no such thing as the soul.
Yes.
Kids will believe things their parents say.
I don't know if Jesus ever existed, but I do know he's dead now.
I don't care.
Incorrect, it is a proven theory.
You have a long road ahead of you, you sound like me a year ago.
Keep searching for the truth. Christianity, as it is, will not survive. Christians have forgotten the truth about God. They are too self-righteous, elated that they think they've figured out some concept in the Bible....thinking they somehow made the next step to heaven. That is a bad place to be, that is when those people can hurt others who have faith.
If you want to believe in a real God, you must abandon your blind faith and succumb to reason....then, let God reveal himself to you if he's real.
Agnosticism I think is the pill Christianity needs to recover. Rediscover why it is that their religion came to be to find the truth. Then, share that with the world.
Don't be scared if there is no God, you will be okay. Lightning will not rain down on you today. If there is a God, he would want you to believe in its account, not in Moses's, Lukes, Johns, etc. account of God. How many times did the Disciples guess God's character wrongly, according to Jesus?
What makes you any better?
Seek the truth, something to believe in.
I understand that scientists have found many things that would point to the fact that all life evolved from the sea. I think that with the facts that are known that it would seem that is a very good and reliable source of information as to how life started on Earth. 
Just thinking out loud on a tough subject:
Life is the weakest force in the universe. So weak it is virtually undetectable. However it has the ability to manifest itself through a specialized interaction of matter and energy.
Life is the weakest force in the universe. So weak it is virtually undetectable. However it has the ability to manifest itself through a specialized interaction of matter and energy.
Exactly what matter and what energy is it an interaction of?
From your analysis, it sounds completely undetectable .....
First off, if I knew what it was I wouldn't be guessing, but I'll say the life force is 'virtually undetectable' just in case someone, somewhere, somehow detects it.
Last edited: