How do you define atheism?

[Enmos]

You've never met a theist like that before? They tell you that God can't be proven by any conventional way, you just have to have faith and you'll believe. etc

Like I said all theists are like that in my experience. God is unknowable.

 

[ashura]

Then those theists are agnostic theists. What's the problem?

 

[Enmos]

Let me get this straight..

You say that there are theists that say that there can be no evidence whatsoever of God by principle ?
How come they believe in God then ? Do they believe in any random fairytale as well, as long as it can never be proven or disproven ? :shrug:

 

[Anti-Flag]

Then all agnostics are atheists, because they ALL lack believe in God :shrug:

Not at all, all atheists lack a belief in god, but agnosticism is a statement on knowledge. A lot of theists state that you have to go by faith alone, they admit they can't prove their god exists but they believe he does, so they too are agnostic.

 

[ashura]

Let me get this straight..

You say that there are theists that say that there can be no evidence whatsoever of God by principle ?
How come they believe in God then ? Do they believe in any random fairytale as well, as long as it can never be proven or disproven ? :shrug:

Heh, how would I know? I'm not a theist.

 

[Enmos]

Not at all, all atheists lack a belief in god, but agnosticism is a statement on knowledge. A lot of theists state that you have to go by faith alone, they admit they can't prove their god exists but they believe he does, so they too are agnostic.

So agnostics theists say the bible is wrong then ?

 

[Enmos]

Have to go now though, have a great evening

 

[Anti-Flag]

Great explanation.

Whilst I've always seen them as seperate myself I have to admit the explanation is entirely someone elses, I hope they pop in to claim credit.

 

[Anti-Flag]

So agnostics theists say the bible is wrong then ?

Whilst I can't speak entirely for them I imagine it depends on their exact beliefs, obviously most religions have a wide range of beliefs and interpretations within their own religion alone.
I think there are some who think it's wrong and just generally believe in god and others who call themselves christian/muslim/jewish etc and claim they go on faith alone. They have faith that what they believe is true.
Whilst it probably isn't particularly logical it nevertheless exists.

Edit - I should probably note for clarity that if the agnostic theist does consider themselves part of a religion; it's usually a minor subdivision/sect/personal interpretation of the overall religion.

 

[visceral_instinct]

If you believe in a god of any kind, you're a theist. If you don't, you're an atheist.

 

[Enmos]

If you believe in a god of any kind, you're a theist. If you don't, you're an atheist.

Exactly

 

[Enmos]

Whilst I can't speak entirely for them I imagine it depends on their exact beliefs, obviously most religions have a wide range of beliefs and interpretations within their own religion alone.
I think there are some who think it's wrong and just generally believe in god and others who call themselves christian/muslim/jewish etc and claim they go on faith alone. They have faith that what they believe is true.
Whilst it probably isn't particularly logical it nevertheless exists.

Edit - I should probably note for clarity that if the agnostic theist does consider themselves part of a religion; it's usually a minor subdivision/sect/personal interpretation of the overall religion.

Well, ok they exist..

But I have to say that the concept 'agnostic theist' strikes me as particularly stupid.
If you believe that God is unknowable then you obviously reject the bible since contact of God with people is described in there.
So where did they get their faith (do they have faith?) ? Maybe they were indoctrinated by their parents then ? Or inspired by other believers ?
Both got their faith from the bible or other believers.
Ultimately it all goes back to the bible or first hand experience of the people alive at that time (assuming the bible is correct).
So being an agnostic theist is at the very least awesomely illogical, in my book. :shrug:

 

[Anti-Flag]

Well, ok they exist..

But I have to say that the concept 'agnostic theist' strikes me as particularly stupid.
If you believe that God is unknowable then you obviously reject the bible since contact of God with people is described in there.

If I'm following correctly you may have a slightly different definition of agnostic, it's not so much god being unknowable as an entity, but proof of his existence being unknowable so his existence unproveable. That doesn't stop any one merely believing in his existence.

So where did they get their faith (do they have faith?) ?

Faith is all they have, as far as I know they make no attempt to 'prove' they're right, they just 'feel' it or whatever.:shrug:

Maybe they were indoctrinated by their parents then ? Or inspired by other believers ? Both got their faith from the bible or other believers.

Maybe, but some people just hear about god and want to believe. Often as part of a reaction to traumatic events.

Ultimately it all goes back to the bible or first hand experience of the people alive at that time (assuming the bible is correct).

Not necessarily. We in the west do live in a culture derived from the bible but we have many different sects. In fact with a lot of people who read they bible they all interpret it differently. Some people decide against joining one of the sects and go it alone with their own interpretations, so they still consider themselves christian whilst also admitting they can't prove it, it's just a feeling or a desire. Some even believe significant portions of the bible but still have the capacity to admit they can't prove any of it.
Usually these theists are more bearable to be around as they couldn't care less if you agree with them or not.

So being an agnostic theist is at the very least awesomely illogical, in my book.

Not sure I can argue with that. It does seem that way to us as it's essentially the phrase "I can't prove it and I don't know for sure but I believe...."
I guess it offers them comfort and they have their reasons. I'm hardly an expert however and I hope the explanation helped.

 

[draqon]

I'd like to see peoples opinion or anybody to chalenge mine.

who am I than? a cybermachine?

 

[flameofanor5]

Well, this would also depend on your definition of god. If you are an atheist, and you define the word "god" as an all knowing being or spirit. Then you contridict what you say. Saying that a god is all knowing, and that he does not exist, means that you must know everything. You can not say something does not exist, unless you know anything. But, if you define god as in a god such as Ares, or something like that. Then I really don't know.

 

[flameofanor5]

Agnostics do not believe that they do not know there is a god. They believe that you CAN NOT know.

 

[Enmos]

If I'm following correctly you may have a slightly different definition of agnostic, it's not so much god being unknowable as an entity, but proof of his existence being unknowable so his existence unproveable. That doesn't stop any one merely believing in his existence.

Really the same thing to me. To know him (personally), you have to have to proof to yourself.

Faith is all they have, as far as I know they make no attempt to 'prove' they're right, they just 'feel' it or whatever.

Maybe, but some people just hear about god and want to believe. Often as part of a reaction to traumatic events.

Not necessarily. We in the west do live in a culture derived from the bible but we have many different sects. In fact with a lot of people who read they bible they all interpret it differently. Some people decide against joining one of the sects and go it alone with their own interpretations, so they still consider themselves christian whilst also admitting they can't prove it, it's just a feeling or a desire. Some even believe significant portions of the bible but still have the capacity to admit they can't prove any of it.
Usually these theists are more bearable to be around as they couldn't care less if you agree with them or not.

Sure, but they HAVE to get the concept of God somewhere. Unless you suggest they came up with it themselves.. :shrug:

Not sure I can argue with that. It does seem that way to us as it's essentially the phrase "I can't prove it and I don't know for sure but I believe...."
I guess it offers them comfort and they have their reasons. I'm hardly an expert however and I hope the explanation helped.

Depends on what you were trying to achieve
I still think it's the most stupid stance one can have
I effect they are saying that they believe in nonsense.

 

[Enmos]

Agnostics do not believe that they do not know there is a god. They believe that you CAN NOT know.

So they KNOW there is a God, yet the claim they CAN'T know ??
This is getting too weird.

 

[Anti-Flag]

Really the same thing to me. To know him (personally), you have to have to proof to yourself.

I think thats where theists are different. Faith is so important to them. Like I say, to us it's pretty illogical, but to them; being able to say that they believe in something they cannot prove is fine.:shrug:
All I can say is I assure you agnostic theists like that exist.

Sure, but they HAVE to get the concept of God somewhere. Unless you suggest they came up with it themselves..

Well technically lots of different cultures invented gods independantly, so it's not out of the question a person may just believe in a higher power. If it's a higher power from a particular religion then obviously that would require the religious views to be present. So agnostic theists can have any religion, or just their own belief in a god not associated with any religion(derived from their own interpretations, desires, and opinions).

Depends on what you were trying to achieve
I still think it's the most stupid stance one can have
I effect they are saying that they believe in nonsense.

We see it differently to them really. Just believing in god obviously has an effect on them in some way(and most likely positive), but they seem to recognise they can't convince others towards it as they have no proof. It's both more logical than theism as at least they recognize lack of proof and accept others, yet more illogical as they believe solely on faith and gut instinct. It's all rather more complicated than most people imagine.
You're quite right in some logical ways it is stupid, but generally at least morally speaking I can rely on them not to push things in my face and to be decent people.

 

[Sarkus]

Then all agnostics are atheists, because they ALL lack believe in God :shrug:

No - my brother is an agnostic theist.
He believes that God is unknowable - hence he is an Agnostic.
But he also believes God exists - hence he is a theist.

But then he is also irrational in this regard - and he admits this also - but he can not help it as he feels the "need to believe".


Anyhoo - if everyone was rational - all agnostics would (I think) be atheist.
But not everyone is rational.