How do we KNOW that it was JESUS???

Lawdog said:
The weight of proof lies upon those who claim he did not exist. For example, can you prove that Achilles did not exist?
Wrong.
I can quite happily claim that a 20,000 kg man once lived at the North Pole, but fell through the ice and drowned - and is now covered with mud at the bottom.
According to you... the weight of proof is on you to disprove this man's existence?

No. I am the one making the claim of existence - so I must supply the proof.
Just as you are claiming the existence of someone else - so YOU MUST SUPPLY THE PROOF.

Learn this.
Learn it well.
Or you will forever start believing - and spouting - unsubstantiable bollox.
 
All this harping for proof and who bears the burden of it is pointless.

Ask yourself first WHY do you want proof. Once you answer this clearly, the rest of your quiery should be clear as well.

Otherwise, no sane logician will allow himself to go around claiming "There is no God" or "Jesus never lived".
A negative cannot be proven. So prancing around doing as if one had proven a negative is unacceptable.
 
Perhaps some of your criticisms bear consideration. HOWEVER: You cant say that a person whom almost everyone has acknowledged as being historical, whom even the majority of Jews, Muslims, and pagans have admitted is historical, is now to have never existed. Thus the weight of proof does lie on those who say that he never existed, because they are historically in the slim minority. Furthermore, to say that he existed is not ta admit that he was God, so I dont see the problem.

The same would be held concerning a religious founder like Buddha. Just because he is venerated at mythic proportion today does not mean that he never really existed. No one ever says that the spiritual philosopher Buddha, who lived several hundred years before Christ, never existed.
 
Last edited:
I don't think he never existed, I just don't think he was who he said he was.
 
It's possible that Noah and the people just didn't want to write about it instantly. They told about it to people, to their children, and their children passed it on. And later, I guess, Moses or whoever, wrote about it...

The problem with that is exactly what I've been getting at. You cannot hand down a story over a timespan of 1,500 years and expect it to remain accurate to any degree. It will certainly still contain a lot of the details - but with a whole host of additions and changes. For accuracy about the event, the only one worth reading would be the one written during/closer to the actual event. As a result the Sumerian flood story is the only one worth reading and given consideration to as being accurate.

Moses would know that the flood occured, even though no one had ever told him.

Who is Moses?

The Legend of Sargon, "... My changeling mother conceived me, in secret she bore me. She set me in a basket of rushes, with bitumen she sealed my lid. She cast me into the river, which rose not (over) me. The river bore me up and carried me to Akki, the drawer of water. Akki, the drawer of water lifted me out as he dipped his e[w]er. Akki the drawer of water, [took me] as his son (and) reared me."

Exodus 2:3, "... The woman conceived and gave birth to a son. She saw that he was good and she hid him for three months. She could not hide him any longer, so she took for him a wicker basket and smeared it with clay and pitch, she placed the child into it and placed it among the reeds at the bank of the river." Then Pharaoh's daughter saw the basket among the reeds. Later on the Bible says (Exodus 2:10), the boy grew up and she brought him to the daughter of Pharaoh and he was a son to her. She called his name Moses, as she said, " For I drew him from the water."

The Legend of Sargon is dated to around 2,300 BC, Moses around 1,300 BC.

Was there even a person called Moses? It's highly questionable.

If we start right at the beginning of the bible we can see that Sumeria plays a massive part in it. The very location of the Garden of Eden is stated as being in Sumeria, the story of Adam and Eve and the fruit is from Sumerian origin, (Adamu) etc, Abraham is stated to have been from Sumeria, and then travelled north, bumped into god and founded a new people. Undoubtedly stories that he had heard during his younger years would have been told to others as he travelled, and indeed if he did the writing he would have used the Sumerian stories, (what he could remember of them). This includes the ram caught in the thicket, (during the sacrifice of his son). Statues depicting the ram caught in a thicket were found in a temple in Ur, (now in display in the Philadelphia Museum). Are any of these stories original? It's highly suspect. It is more likely to state that they have been written by someone who grew up hearing Sumerian stories and then rewrote them as best he could.

Now later, of course, it has become like "myth". Most things become myths sooner or later. If our civilization would be destroyed in a great natural disaster, survivors would tell about us, and later they might write about it. Everyone would believe it, but after a long time, like after 5000 years, many people would consider it to be a myth... that we had rockets which could fly to the moon and other kind of "technology".

Certainly, and what are the chances that their stories about these rockets would be anywhere near accurate? While I will agree that the basic details might very well be based upon some form of truth, it would become so distorted after such a length of time to render it of no worth to accuracy.

I do not doubt there was a flood, or perhaps that a man got stuck on a boat of some kind, and quite possibly had a few animals on board - but that doesn't in any way give rise to gods flooding the entire planet, sky domes with windows to let the rain fall through or getting 2 of every animal in existence onto a boat.

Another issue that needs to be taken into account is their level of world understanding. These survivors of the natural disaster.. what is their level of understanding? Do they think the world is flat? Can they diagnose diseases or tell that lightning is not the wrath of some floating guy in the sky? Without a certain level of understanding the stories would be even worse - becoming more akin to a future bible than anything worth the time.

Actually they Could see into the future. I mean, people like Noah. How else do you think he knew that the flood would come? The sumerians had "kings" who could experience past and future as present. They could even see to our time.

I refuse to believe that even you believe this.

Like I said, I think Christ has come many times. So there are many original stories.

Of course the vastly more rational explanation being that these stories were simply handed down and rewritten.

And you might be confusing the allegorical and the real stories.

Eh? Real? Lol.

But I wanted to say that Noah and Gilgamesh weren't the only survivors of the flood.

Of course not. I'm sure the Chinese folk that they knew nothing about survived, or the Europeans, etc etc. What did they know about the whole world? Nothing..

----------

A negative cannot be proven. So prancing around doing as if one had proven a negative is unacceptable.

1 is not 2. That's a negative and you can prove it.
 
SnakeLord said:
You cannot hand down a story over a timespan of 1,500 years and expect it to remain accurate to any degree.

When you know when Sahara "became dry", you know when the flood occured.

But the initiates (people like Moses) could have written about it even before it happened, since they knew what was going to happen. I doubt they did though.

The Legend of Sargon, "... My changeling mother conceived me, in secret she bore me. She set me in a basket of rushes, with bitumen she sealed my lid. She cast me into the river, which rose not (over) me. The river bore me up and carried me to Akki, the drawer of water. Akki, the drawer of water lifted me out as he dipped his e[w]er. Akki the drawer of water, [took me] as his son (and) reared me."

Exodus 2:3, "... The woman conceived and gave birth to a son. She saw that he was good and she hid him for three months. She could not hide him any longer, so she took for him a wicker basket and smeared it with clay and pitch, she placed the child into it and placed it among the reeds at the bank of the river." Then Pharaoh's daughter saw the basket among the reeds. Later on the Bible says (Exodus 2:10), the boy grew up and she brought him to the daughter of Pharaoh and he was a son to her. She called his name Moses, as she said, " For I drew him from the water."

If these two stories are supposed to be rewritten from each other, why are they so different and why do they use different names? Why not just copy the original story exactly? The Bible has been translated into many languages and it has remained 99% the same as the original.

but that doesn't in any way give rise to gods flooding the entire planet, sky domes with windows to let the rain fall through or getting 2 of every animal in existence onto a boat.

When God said that they would take "every" animal to the boat, he meant that they would take "as many as possible".

What is weird about a God who floods the earth? Do you know what a God is? Gods are often representations of natural powers. You know that lightning comes when two different powers go together. Primitive humans wanted to say that God cast the lightning.

It is not really wrong. God can be considered the thing which moves all things in nature. A kind of a will power. Of course, it is a completely "unconscious" (thus it is also perfect: ants and atoms) power if it is not in a human body.

There is only one power. With our consciousness, we can divide it into a large spectrum. That's what God is: what we humans recognize as the "self". It exists in atoms also, but they are not conscious of it, that's why they are so perfect.

I refuse to believe that even you believe this.

Is it because it explains everything? There is nothing weird about seeing into the past or the future. Time doesn't exist except in our consciousness (body). The mind, the self, is omnipresent, both in space and time. You know that there is a self within you as there is within me. It is exactly the same self, just in a different body. Your consciousness limits you to that specific body. You love your person and defend it, you don't want to merge with me or the rest of the world, so you remain limited (personal)

Of course the vastly more rational explanation being that these stories were simply handed down and rewritten.

I wouldn't say that all of them are rewritten.

Is it possible that the Bible and the Sumerian scripts are talking about the same Flood, and that they are different because they come from different perspectives (different people wrote them: Moses and Gilgamesh)?

Of course not. I'm sure the Chinese folk that they knew nothing about survived, or the Europeans, etc etc. What did they know about the whole world? Nothing..

People like Noah and Gilgamesh knew who survived the flood because they were not restricted to their body (space and time)
 
Last edited:
You realize that the bible also says that people lived for 900 years, people lived in a whale, and other incredibly stupid and foolish crap. Why in fuck's sake should we believe that the Biblical Flood happened?
 
Flood? You guys are talking about that stupid Noah story? Off the top of my head, that's the stupidest, most childish, story in the bible.

Two of every species in the world? All estimated 2 million+ of them? Every plant and animal? Every insect? The order of beetles has 500,000 species by itself.

Rain at the rate of 30 feet per hour needed to cover every mountain top (think Everest) in the entire world?

Sheesh.
 
The ship would've been broken in two the second that level or rainn started pouring.
:p Muwaaahahaha!!
 
Muwaaahahahahah!! :eek: You dissing my great, great, great, great, ah shit, almost to infinity grandfather?!
 
I even posted the math in some thread showing the rate of rainfall needed (it would basically be a solid stream - a waterfall) to cover everest in 40 days/nights. It's 30 feet per hour and I even pointed out that the ark would be destroyed in seconds! LOL.

Cotton,

You funny!
 
The Scientists are finding more evidence for several great cataclysmic floods in ancient times.

The bible's phrase "destroyed all flesh...covered the entire earth" need not be taken literally.
 
Lawdog said:
The Scientists are finding more evidence for several great cataclysmic floods in ancient times.
Yeah, they were called "Ice Ages", and were before biblical times, but still part of the ancient epochs.

The bible's phrase "destroyed all flesh...covered the entire earth" need not be taken literally.
But you do.
 
I wonder what I, as an early man, would have made of floods of such grand magnitude that they wiped out whole tribes? Knowing, of course, that the earth was flat and there were only the tribes "over there" and mine.
 
The bible's phrase "destroyed all flesh...covered the entire earth" need not be taken literally.

Now you're learning. And having said that, every other phrase in the bible need not be taken literally either. Where it says jesus came back to life - don't take it literally man, listen to your own advice shown above. It's not literal, it's a story.

But the initiates (people like Moses) could have written about it even before it happened, since they knew what was going to happen.

No they couldn't. Work it out: The biblical text, (attributed to Moses), was written 1,500 years after the event, (or the Sumerians wrote about the event). Thus he wouldn't have been alive when it happened, let alone before it happened.

Not to mention your whole 'seeing into the future' nonsense is nothing other than nonsense and you know it.

If these two stories are supposed to be rewritten from each other, why are they so different and why do they use different names? Why not just copy the original story exactly?

Because, as I have already explained, nobody can ever copy a story 'exactly' unless the literally do a reprint of the original text - but then after a millennium the language has generally changed and so on. In those days most stories would have been handed down verbally - and that leads to massive amounts of chinese whispers. A story will morph and change itself with each passing generation.

The Bible has been translated into many languages and it has remained 99% the same as the original.

How many different English copies are there that all differ with each other? - and that's with the ability to translate and access to the manuscripts. Fuck, even modern day man with his abilities and the actual paperwork can't even get the text to come out the same, what chance did people several thousand years ago have?

When God said that they would take "every" animal to the boat, he meant that they would take "as many as possible".

Is that the Yorda translation of the bible? See, even you can't get the story exactly the same as anyone else. According to the translators it's 'every', not 'whatever you can manage'.

So then Noah takes what he can and the rest drown and die - thus vanishing from the earth forever, (given that evolution is all apparently a load of old 'nads). Somehow he still managed to cramp a couple of million animals onto his boat, somehow managed to also cramp their particular enivronments onto the boat aswell, (an iceberg for the polar bears, some large trees for the elephants), and somehow managed to keep these couple of million animals away from each other, (tigers will eat the majority of other animals etc). On top of that he also provided food for all of them, and managed to keep his boat afloat even with the several thousand tonnes of animal turd being plonked on the deck every week. All of this without so much as a tranquiliser dart.

What is weird about a God who floods the earth? Do you know what a God is? Gods are often representations of natural powers.

Of which a global flood to that extent is simply unfounded. Sure, floods happen - and big floods happen, but not only would the writers not know whether every part of the earth was flooded, (probably only a few square kilometres at best), but I'm also well aware that gods don't exist and that these old people are talking about natural events - but that these events have been vastly warped through retelling over time. What was most likely a small river deluge and Ziusudra stuck on a boat with some goats on his way to market, has turned into a global flood and a boat with 4 million animals aboard.

Is it because it explains everything?

It didn't explain anything. What it did was just avoid the rational answer in preference of fairies and fantasy.

There is nothing weird about seeing into the past or the future.

Nonsense.

Time doesn't exist except in our consciousness (body). The mind, the self, is omnipresent, both in space and time.

A load of blithering waffle.

You know that there is a self within you as there is within me. It is exactly the same self, just in a different body. Your consciousness limits you to that specific body. You love your person and defend it, you don't want to merge with me or the rest of the world, so you remain limited (personal)

Utter drivelling codswollop.

Is it possible that the Bible and the Sumerian scripts are talking about the same Flood, and that they are different because they come from different perspectives (different people wrote them: Moses and Gilgamesh)?

That simply doesn't work given the 1,500 years difference.

People like Noah and Gilgamesh knew who survived the flood because they were not restricted to their body (space and time)

A load of smelly horse poo.
 
Lawdog,

Thus the weight of proof does lie on those who say that he never existed,
But in this case it doesn't matter, it is merely sufficient to demonstrate that the Christians cannot show that he does exist. Remember that the basis of Christianity is the crucifixion and the resurection - if he never existed then these events did not occur and Christianity is a nonsense. But the enormous difficulty shown by Christians when asked to show he existed reveals the significant weakness of the Christian case.
 
superluminal said:
Two of every species in the world? All estimated 2 million+ of them? Every plant and animal? Every insect? The order of beetles has 500,000 species by itself.

I see that you are very proud of your small knowledge.

Rain at the rate of 30 feet per hour needed to cover every mountain top (think Everest) in the entire world?

I think I have explained it to you before but you didn't want to listen.

Hapsburg said:
The ship would've been broken in two the second that level or rainn started pouring.
:p Muwaaahahaha!!

There are reasons why it survived. Of course humans couldn't build such a ship TODAY, but for Noah it was easy.

Why do you always think that you are right? Why do you take it literally when I say "always"?

SnakeLord said:
Not to mention your whole 'seeing into the future' nonsense is nothing other than nonsense and you know it.

It is not nonsense.

See, even you can't get the story exactly the same as anyone else. According to the translators it's 'every', not 'whatever you can manage'.

There are certain parts of the Bible which shouldn't be taken literally.
 
SnakeLord said:
So then Noah takes what he can and the rest drown and die - thus vanishing from the earth forever, (given that evolution is all apparently a load of old 'nads). Somehow he still managed to cramp a couple of million animals onto his boat, somehow managed to also cramp their particular enivronments onto the boat aswell, (an iceberg for the polar bears, some large trees for the elephants), and somehow managed to keep these couple of million animals away from each other, (tigers will eat the majority of other animals etc). On top of that he also provided food for all of them, and managed to keep his boat afloat even with the several thousand tonnes of animal turd being plonked on the deck every week. All of this without so much as a tranquiliser dart.
Steve Irwin never needs tranquiliser darts.



:)





:eek: ... Steve Irwin is Noah reincarnated ... :eek:
 
Yorda:

There are certain parts of the Bible which shouldn't be taken literally.

So, which parts? Do you have the ubermanual for the bible that says "sections thus and such are illustrative only, while sections thus and such are literally true"?

I see you are very proud of your small knowledge.
 
superluminal said:
So, which parts? Do you have the ubermanual for the bible that says "sections thus and such are illustrative only, while sections thus and such are literally true"?

Everyone who has ears will hear what parts are literal, what parts are allegorical, what parts are both, what parts are lies and so on. Just don't lie to yourself and you can distinguish the true from false.

I see you are very proud of your small knowledge.
 
Back
Top