How did Jesus save us?

[KennyJC]

go ahead argue divinity of Jesus, this would seem more worthy of your time. But to say he never existed?? that's completely lol.

You got that slightly wrong. The existence of Jesus is false because the story is false. The story may have been based upon a real person - but that comparison is ruined by the clear embelishment of the story tellers.

The divinity therefor of Jesus is not arguable at all - It's completely false. The only way a person could believe any different is if they give the benefit of the doubt to the writers. And anybody who understands anything about religious texts of all religions will notice a clear bias which leaves their word untrustworthy.

 

[SkinWalker]

Jesus as an actual person, existing, isn't hard to accept unless you have some super-natural disposition to hate jesus,

Actually, what you need is a supernatural disposition to believe in Jesus. Nothing about Jesus is compelling, though I admit the teachings ascribed to the hero myth of Jesus are generally admirable. There simply is no reality-based reason to believe he existed as depicted in the bible, a book of demonstrated myth and allegory.

But to say he never existed?? that's completely lol.

What good reason is there to accept that he *did* exist? Because you want him to? Because 'lots of people believe in him?' Such arguments to popularity don't wash when it comes to providing evidence.

To the extent that many of you who have convinced yourself that JESUS NEVER EXISTED, must exalt yourselves upon an altar of having some arcane knowledge that isn't obvious to your fellow humans...

Or, perhaps it is the converse that is true: those that convinced themselves that a magical being called jesus existed and walked around performing magic believe themselves to be in possession of some knowledge that escapes reality. This kind of knowledge, by the way, is called fantasy.

Go visit bethlehem, go to the galilee, and nazareth. Even Jerusalem. It's not hard to see the effect Jesus had on the communities, people, culture, and idea itself.

What, precisely, should we be looking for that validates the hero-myth called Jesus? Wouldn't I find the same present by simply visiting Bemidji, MN. Paul Bunyan and his ox Blue Babe are legendary there. I bet he was even born in a barn. If you visit Roswell, NM, you'll see the effect space aliens had on this community, the people, and the culture. Your arguments are weak.

 

[Nisus]

What good reason is there to accept that he *did* exist?

?? lol? What good reason? For the sake of understanding truth. Nothing more, nothing less.

Because you want him to?

What I want doesn't influence truth, as it is. Facts as they are.

Because 'lots of people believe in him?

Lol NO.

Such arguments to popularity don't wash when it comes to providing evidence.

Arguments of popularity?

Your arguments aren't even weak. They're absolute zero.

If you had a way to prove that it was all a myth, the world would need a desperate call to attention.

 

[Cris]

Nisus,

If you had a way to prove that it was all a myth, the world would need a desperate call to attention.

I think the point is that there is no evidence to show he did exist, which makes all the widespread assumptions that he did exist somewhat silly.

 

[spidergoat]

There is some indication that Lao Tzu, the fabled author of the Tao Te Ching, either did not exist, or was an amalgamation of several people. That does not make the Tao Te Ching any less of an inspirational document.

 

[KennyJC]

Are we trying to prove that the character in the story was real or that the story was based around someone?

 

[SkinWalker]

?? lol? What good reason? For the sake of understanding truth. Nothing more, nothing less.
What I want doesn't influence truth, as it is. Facts as they are.
Arguments of popularity?
Your arguments aren't even weak. They're absolute zero.
If you had a way to prove that it was all a myth, the world would need a desperate call to attention.

Same old stuff from the credulous. I'm not making an argument, so you're right. They are "zero."

You, on the other hand, are making bullshit claims about "truth" and "facts," yet have presented us with none. You're the one that says the Jesus myth is real; that it is "factual." The onus of proof is upon you. I'm merely saying that there is no evidence to accept the mythical claims of Jesus or any of the other fables of christianity as 'facts.'

The only "reason" to accept such nonsense is to satisfy personal credulity. Nothing more. Don't get mad at me because you're the one that can't construct a decent argument for your christian gods. But don't be hard on yourself either. It's hard to prove fantastical beings are true.

Maybe Jesus was a real person. Maybe he wasn't. I simply see no reason to believe he was.

 

[nds1]

Let's assume there is God and that Jesus was the "Son of God". Now, let's ask a key question:

1) How did God coming down to earth as Jesus, a human, save anyone from their sins.

Before Jesus: If you live a sinful life, you go to hell. If you live a Godly life, you go to heaven.

After Jesus: If you live a sinful life, you go to hell. If you live a Godly life, you go to heaven.

Nothing has changed, how did he do anything to save us?

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

God's Spirit comes to live inside of you when you are born again.

 

[nds1]

God's Spirit comes to live inside of you when you are born again.

Wikipedia defines being born again as "when one chooses to accept Christ, the Spirit of the Lord comes to dwell within, and the individual is born spiritually or born again."

So are you saying, IceAge, that anyone who lived during the Old Testament times or before Jesus was born had no chance of being born again and God's spirit dwelling inside of them?

Also, are you stating that the only way to reach heaven is to be born again? If so, then Abraham and Moses didn't go to heaven.

Let's assume that a pre-requisite to eternal life in heaven is being born again. How does this save us? In fact, being born again only represents another obstacle in getting into heaven.

Before Jesus the pre-requisites to get into heaven:
1) Believe in God
2) Do God's will and become one with God during your lifespan

After Jesus:
1) Believe in God
2) Believe that Jesus existed
3) Believe that Jesus was the Son of God, the savior, or that Jesus was God himself manifested in a human's body
4) Do God's will and become one with God during your lifespan

So, in my current understanding, Jesus did not save anyone, he simply made it HARDER, not easier, to get into heaven. Guys like Abraham and Moses had only two pre-requisites for attaining eternal life and heaven. However, everyone after the life of Jesus now has two more pre-requesites. Sounds a bit unfair to me.

 

[Kendall]

He saved us by telling the truth, so we would not believe in non-sence, or be controled by fear.

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

All people know that there is a Creator, if they don't admit this, they are liars, says the Bible, and all people know right from wrong fairly early on, so whether they condemn their own sin, in light of the Creator, is how those who have never heard the Gospel will be judged.

The Jews looked forward to the Messiah, and so, with truly repentent hearts, were saved, before the Incarnation of Jesus, and now, after the Incarnation, Jews must be born again like all other Christians.

 

[nds1]

Okay IceAge, that is a valid argument if the Jews knew or believed that Jesus was coming before he came. In this sense, they can become born again without the actual physical act of Jesus taking place.

I also remember from the Old Testament that Isaiah prophesied the coming of Jesus, so I'm guessing the Jews possibly used this scripture amongst other methods as a base for the belief in the coming of the messiah.

I'll even add to that arguement and say that time doesn't matter in heaven. "When" Jesus made the sacrifice doesn't matter as much as the fact that he did it. So one could argue that Moses, Abraham, etc. were saved by the future sacrifice of Jesus and had to accept him as their saviour somewhere between the time that they physically died and the time they entered heaven.

But this still doesn't answer the question as to why the creation of Jesus was, or is necessary as far as someone believing in God and getting to heaven. We see very passionate Islamic believers who serve their God, which is the same God as Christians, with the same passion that Christians do. Even if these Muslims do not belive in Jesus, wouldn't God still allow them into heaven for at least following him? If he did, then Jesus wouldn't be necessary for them.

Going back to original question of this thread, how did Jesus save us, let me offer up 3 theories that I came up with (these are the only 3 possible theories I could come up with):

1) God was angry with the world and full of grief similar to the Noah era. The fact that Jesus lived a sinless life and did God's will to perfection made God feel joy again, and gave God hope that humans can actually be good. In this case, Jesus saved us from the wrath of God (Noah-Flood situation) by doing as God pleased. In this case, our sins were redeemed, and he carried the burdern for all of us. This, to me, is a fairly solid theory.

2) God wanted to come down to earth as a human and experience the sufferings and weakness of humans first hand. He did this through the person of Jesus. This would coincide with the theory that the God-Jesus-Holy Spirit Trinity are in fact one being. By God undergoing the human experience through Jesus, it somehow saved us. This theory is less solid, but to me has potential.

3) Jesus served as an example to everyone as how someone should live who desires to do God's will. He did this through his treachings of the truth, which were unorthodox during his time. God had tried to teach the truth through Moses and the Law of Moses but that hadn't worked so he sent a living example of perfection to teach everyone. This is a solid theory, but also has some unanswered questions as to why did Jesus have to be the Son of God?

This theory is basically what Kendall stated, that Jesus saved us by proclaiming the "truth." However, couldn't God have used a normal man like Moses or Mohummud to tell everyone the "truth." This theory almost takes away from the value of Jesus being the Son of God. In any case, I see a lot of potential for this theory. Also this theory could possibly be combined with the other two.

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

Jesus and the Holy Spirit have always been part of God, and Jesus is described as the Lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world, so God always has known that the Son would come to Earth to physically die, and resurrect in Spirit, and as animals were slain to cover Adam and Eve, the blood sacrifice was instituted in the ancient world, and the Jews sacrificed lambs often, so Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice, real blood, but the Spirit Father, and a human mother, so Jesus was "God with us" when on Earth, a real flesh and blood Messiah, as predicted by the Jewish prophets.

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

And if there are many ways to God, such as through Islam, then why would God's Son have come to Earth to physically die unnecessarily?

 

[Kendall]

God spoke to Moses in the form of a burning bush, Jesus was tempted by the devil in the form of a burning bush! Thats from memory but close to whats writen.

 

[nova900]

Nds1,

He didn’t and can’t. The first consideration is to understand that Jesus is a mythical character only and has no historical authenticity. Outside of Christian literature there is no independent historical evidence that he ever existed. All the gospels were written decades after he was alleged to have died and cannot represent eye-witness testimony. The only near credible record was by the famous historian Josephus who lived in those times and who allegedly made an indirect remark in one of his journals. These references of course didn’t appear until some 300 years later when the church was trying to exert itself and needed some proof. The single offending paragraph in Josephus’s record was later found to have been forged.

The next major problem is with the Adam and Eve story and their apparent fall from grace that condemned all of us and led to the Jesus story and the need to be saved. The justification for Jesus coming to save us rests entirely on the literal truth of the A&E story as told in the bible. And it is here we have a fundamental paradox.

A&E are commanded not to eat from the tree that gives the knowledge of good and evil. It must therefore be assumed that because they have not eaten from the tree that they do not possess any knowledge of good and evil. They eat from the tree anyway and are condemned for it and so are all of us. The paradox is how were they expected to know it was a bad thing to eat from the tree and disobey God if they hadn’t eaten from the tree that would have provided them the ability to tell the difference between right and wrong? In essence they were tricked and the whole story of the fall from grace is a farce which consequently makes the need for a savior a farce together with the whole of Christianity that rests on this need for salvation.

The next major issue is where this idea of salvation came from. And no it is not original to Christianity. The mythmakers who wrote the gospels borrowed all those stories from many earlier myths, such as – well try this link as a starter. There are others if you need more.

http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/

So in the end there is no salvation, there was no Jesus, and the entirety of Christianity is a rehash of older mythologies.

Good post!
Here is another link to some thoughts on the myth of Jesus.

http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm

Although many of Christs' teachings were noble and can provide some spiritual enligtenment to people of any faith, once the common bond that most religions share (concept of good/evil, benefits of selfless acts, karma)
is broken,we get into the corruption of man written dogma .
The present state of turmoil the world is in is largely due to this : example( my god is better than your god...etc)

 

[spidergoat]

All people know that there is a Creator, if they don't admit this, they are liars, says the Bible, and all people know right from wrong fairly early on, so whether they condemn their own sin, in light of the Creator, is how those who have never heard the Gospel will be judged.

The Jews looked forward to the Messiah, and so, with truly repentent hearts, were saved, before the Incarnation of Jesus, and now, after the Incarnation, Jews must be born again like all other Christians.

Wow, you are a totally brainwashed. I don't "know" there is a creator, and that feeling you have that there is one probably came from years of conditioning when you were young.

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

The God of the Bible says you're a liar, take it up with Him.

 

[spidergoat]

He said YOU were lying.