How convincing for a proof of UFOs does this sound, AS A WHOLE?

VRob,

My perception of what happened has "developed" into this answer, I didn't just take someones story for granted, in fact I looked into this from many different angles previously.

I looked at the angle of Aliens, but I ruled it out, for a very simple reason "Why should it be alien, when it could be man made". This statement doesn't mean I thought it must be man made, but actually means I thought about what a man/men could make that would "fool" people and why.

This allowed me to generate a number of varying versions of events, each of them extremely wild and increasingly more devious but more and more ludicrous in nature.

I got to the point of generating theories, designs and plans for the creation of a craft that could transcend through timespace with Android test pilots. (thats the simplest definition, although there was a little more to it,like the craft didnt actually have engines as the android passengers powered it.)
However it brought up many different theoretical problems, like the grandfather paradox of a creation from a future point in time going back to before it's inventor existed and the shear matters of speculated cost and manhours were beyond the capacity of just myself or a university and if were developed by a military would probably eat a budget far in access of all their blackbudget funding put together.

I felt by this point that I had pretty much covered all the ludicrous options, all the options that went beyond what skeptics would believe and decided that it was about time I started looking at a different angle, the angle of "What if what was said about it being a balloon was correct? but it was a half-truth?" this tied with discussion on the Manhattan projects movement to test grounds throughout New Mexico and the departments that were at Los Alamos started to generate a picture of events that can actually be seen to be more genuine than a green space invader or my first treck into the the Scifi of timetravel.

Chunky was just pointing out that you placed yourself into hipocrasy by suggesting not to listen to military statements but to listen to someone who was one of those military people on their deathbed.

The mind is a funny thing, if you line it with enough lies and deceit to cover the truth, you can start believing it is the truth. So perhaps he was use to lieing about what he saw, perhaps he was telling the truth, but If someone was dieing I wouldn't suggest they were in the best mental health for genuine statements.
 
Chucky,

Karl Korff is a noted UFO Debunker. I have not heard that Marcel passed himself off as a pilot, and I'm not entirely convinced he has. I do know that he occompanied the wreckage to Texas, but I had NEVER heard him, or anyone else state he was a pilot, or has ever claimed such.

Here's a scenario that I certain of. If a vehicle from off-word did in fact crash at Roswell, and Marcel was a key witness who could honestly state such information, the Military will do whatever it has to do to smear Marcel's credibility. If he was such a mediocre military man, why was the intelligence officer at Roswell, and why was he later promoted?

Do you think the Military would smear the name of their own to protect their secrets?
 
Stryderunknown said:
VRob,
Chunky was just pointing out that you placed yourself into hipocrasy by suggesting not to listen to military statements but to listen to someone who was one of those military people on their deathbed.
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Wrong! Chucky attempted to show that I was being a hypocrate, but I clearly explained what I was saying. If you don't know the official military word from individual military men, then god help you.

Also,

Why would you immediately rule out an extraterrestial vehicle? Isn't this contrary to good science?

There have been many incidents that I don't attribute the ET hypothesis to. The Phenoix lights for one. IMO, they were from a top secret military craft. But, I'm wondering why you rule out an ET craft right off the bat?
 
VRob,

If you are to look at the history of mankind and how some countries chose many methods of increasing their territories and increase teaching, you would realise that approximately 50 years would have seen more upfront methods of capturing out attention from some Alien specy.

You can look at imperialism across the African continent, or other europeans attempts at colonisation. There is even such information in the original methods of trying to bring what people thought at the time to be savages up to the same intelligence as themselves historically.

If the world had some intergalactic visitor, they wouldn't just be here as visitors, they would probably want to see that we could commune with them at the same level of intellect (unless of course they eat flesh, and see people as cows)

For absolute secrecy to exist, and to have so many leaks, don't you think it a little odd?

Also if Aliens were among us in either technology or walking about, don't you think NASA wouldn't of had a malfunctioning Rover?

What makes you so sure that there is or was an alien craft? If your going to suggest the increase in design curve, you just have to look at the computer to realise that it's creation harnessed the capacity of complex mathematics that otherwise would have taken many months or years to work an equation out to realise that the steady growth in the curve of technology is like that for just that reason.

Other aspects of reasoning would be if you take into account the distance of the known systems in the universe that are nearest to us are likely not to be a vessels starting point, this means that the duration of time for something to travel greatly increases and in-turns greately decreases the chance of a lifeform surviving unless it was cryogenically frozen, which in the likely event of an impact would shatter.

Also If a craft had been design for interstella travel and/or high speeds, don't you think it would have survived a crash rather than having to be picked up in pieces from the surrounding countryside?
 
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I also like the comment made by the general that should be construed to be an indicator of the truth of alien craft ... that the bodies were "non-human and definitely not balloons."

Well, the overwhelming majority of life on this planet is non-human, and an even greater number are non-balloon. Seems a bit vague. If he wanted to state that these were the bodies of crashed alien space pilots, why not just say so? He's on his deathbed. What's he got to lose?
 
Stryderunknown said:
VRob,

If the world had some intergalactic visitor, they wouldn't just be here as visitors, they would probably want to see that we could commune with them at the same level of intellect (unless of course they eat flesh, and see people as cows)
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How in the HELL do you know??!

I"m always dumfounded when people say rediculous things like this....

"Why don't they make themselves known?"

How can you possibly use this as a reason ALL reports are bogus?? Do you know how many assumptions your reaching for here?

Here's a comparison. If we had the technology to visit another planet with reasonably intelligent life, do you really think we'd land in their Time Square and step out and say hello?? NO!! We'd watch, and try to learn from a distance. Probably take one and see how they function internally. WE WOULDN'T ANNOUNCE OUR PRESENCE!


For absolute secrecy to exist, and to have so many leaks, don't you think it a little odd?
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Odd?? Why? A secret this big, is going to need layers, upon layers of security. It would need to include more individuals than they'd normally prefer to use. It is likely to include many Private corportations assisting on the research and development of any possible technological breakthroughs. However, the possibility of leaks is very high and should be expected. luckily, with the ignorance of the sheep(People), and the system of ridiculing the public on the very subject, they have been able to convice the public despite all the evidence to the contrary.

I'm always amazed that after all the lies, and deciet the Govmt/Military has been caught up in, people still refuse to believe that they're leaders would lie to us about this. IMO, the people who watch CNN, or their evening news regularily and THINK they're informed, are the most Brainwashed people of us all.

Also if Aliens were among us in either technology or walking about, don't you think NASA wouldn't of had a malfunctioning Rover?
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Why?? What are you trying to say here?


Other aspects of reasoning would be if you take into account the distance of the known systems in the universe that are nearest to us are likely not to be a vessels starting point, this means that the duration of time for something to travel greatly increases and in-turns greately decreases the chance of a lifeform surviving unless it was cryogenically frozen, which in the likely event of an impact would shatter.
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Wow, Another favorite of mine.

If we can't travel the speeds necessary to traverse the galaxy, another race couldn't possibly have attained such techology. :bugeye:

How can you possibly put our technological limitations on a civilization from another world? Do you really think in a thousand years, we're going to be using the same propulsion methods we currently use? How about 10,000 years?

Have you heard of the box? Maybe you should step out of it.

Also If a craft had been design for interstella travel and/or high speeds, don't you think it would have survived a crash rather than having to be picked up in pieces from the surrounding countryside?
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Once again, another favorite of mine. I'm sorry, but these arguments you're posing are rediculous. Because they're supposedly more advanced, they're imune from accidents, technical problems.... WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
VRob said:
If we had the technology to visit another planet with reasonably intelligent life, do you really think we'd land in their Time Square and step out and say hello?? NO!! We'd watch, and try to learn from a distance. Probably take one and see how they function internally. WE WOULDN'T ANNOUNCE OUR PRESENCE!
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Kind of like when we have made contact with technologically lacking peoples? European arrival in the Americas jumps immediately to mind. I think your argument on this point does not hold up.

:m: Peace.
 
goofyfish said:
Kind of like when we have made contact with technologically lacking peoples? European arrival in the Americas jumps immediately to mind. I think your argument on this point does not hold up.

:m: Peace.
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You're comparing Apples to oranges here Goofyfish.

When the Europeans made contact with the America's, they didn't have the technology to be stealth. They initially, didn't even know there was land, much less people.

If we had the technology to identify intelligent life from orbit, which we currently have, and to watch before making ourselves known, you can bet your ass that's exactly what we'd do.

In addition, what do you think we'd do if a craft landed on the White House lawn??

I'll tell you what, they'd be immediately surrounded by armed guards. They'd then be interogated regarding their intentions, and/or reason for their visit. In short, they would not receive a warm welcome.
 
And you are comparing apples to a completely unknown fruit.
I have followed this thread for a while, and give you back your own words:

How in the HELL do you know??!

In truth, you do not. You are making an assuption that might be absolutely correct,
but you have no means of proving it so. Your beliefs are your own, and I fully respect
them regardless of how I feel personally. What you are not acknowledging is that
there is no verifiable proof, as yet, to establish their validity.

:m: Peace.
 
Very good question Goofyfish,

We're all making assumptions based on known facts. My assumption is how we would approach another planet with intelligent life on it. I am basing this on what is known about our Military/Govmt.

To assume how another race of beings would approach visiting our world is a whole other ball of wax. There are no known facts to go on. Thus, you CANNOT make assumptions on their validity, based on the fact that they haven't made themselves known to the viewing public.
 
VRob said:
Because they're supposedly more advanced, they're imune from accidents, technical problems.... WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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One would think that interstellar space travel would be a pretty daunting task. You are likely to be confronted with comets, asteroids, general space junk, magnetic fields of varying strength, strong gravitational forces, high levels of radiation, etc. They would know this. The craft would have to be built to withstand this sort of bombardment and punishment for long periods of time. You wouldn't think that it might shatter into pieces if it were to crash land in the desert full of sand and soft sedimentary rock.
 
VRob, once in the known world people announced their "powers" by creating miracles, the same could be said by those with power creating large landmarks as a statement of their fortitude and wealth.

For you to suggest there is a clandestine alien race watching over us, while the world is surround in varying types of telescopes scanning the skys, pretty much means that something doesn't add up. Either all those telescopes and the people that have put their time and effort into analysing the stars are wrong, or there aren't any hidden alien races.

I mentioned about secrects because a secret is not a secret if people know about it, therefore if people suggest their is UFO secrecy, how do they know there is a secret? Afterall if it's truly a secret they want an answer to, then somehow they know there is a secret there, making it no longer a secret.

My mentioning of the Rover was simple, why wouldn't some of the problems that occured have been already worked out based upon "alien technology", simple answer, there was no alien technology to reverse.

There is a Technological advance curve that can be followed, it's a mathematical curvature that can be applied over time. Admittedly I can't suggest what advances we might make, I can't even suggest that we would still be here as a race (Since the likelihood is we'll probably kill ourselves off through people not doing things because of those things being "too costly")

However my shear point is that if they were to use convention "less than light speed" speeds, the time they would take to travel between worlds would be so imense that the changes would be too great, and those sent would pretty much be apart of a suicide mission.

The last point I touched upon and Chunky pointed it out further.

I can understand you want to fall for the illusion of aliens being on this planet, after theres been many years of people claiming one thing or another, Hollywood films and programs also being made to "cash in".

I can even understand that people like yourself are necessary for places like Roswell, as without such stories why would people want to "resort" to such a town? In fact such secrecy is a bit like KFC or Coca-Colas Secret recipes, just if you truly knew what was in the Roswell ingredients, you wouldn't want to buy into it anymore.

Your view of this is like how an ancestor might of thought that someone moved the sun across the skies and hid it up for the night. Science has altered that perspective of what really goes on, and it required people to analyse things scrupulously and create many devices to indentify the truth of the matter further.

If your telling me that there is still some mystery like the sun rising, even with all are current technology, then we are never going to know from your perspective. (As from mine we already do know.)
 
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Stryderunknown said:
VRob, once in the known world people announced their "powers" by creating miracles, the same could be said by those with power creating large landmarks as a statement of their fortitude and wealth.

For you to suggest there is a clandestine alien race watching over us, while the world is surround in varying types of telescopes scanning the skys, pretty much means that something doesn't add up. Either all those telescopes and the people that have put their time and effort into analysing the stars are wrong, or there aren't any hidden alien races.
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First of all, there have been many objects photographed in orbit from Weather photography, along with NASA's own shuttle. So your argument here is really not worth commenting on.

I mentioned about secrects because a secret is not a secret if people know about it, therefore if people suggest their is UFO secrecy, how do they know there is a secret? Afterall if it's truly a secret they want an answer to, then somehow they know there is a secret there, making it no longer a secret.
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I think you're misinterpreting the word secret. For there to be a secret, someone has to know about it, correct? :)

The secrecy of UFO's being a real phenomena with some being vehicles not constructed on this planet is real. There have been many who have been privy to part of the information who have come forward. The reason they're able to keep the absolute truth hidden is because of their conserted debunking and disinformation effort, along with the fact that there's been no HARD evidence in the publics hand as of yet.

My mentioning of the Rover was simple, why wouldn't some of the problems that occured have been already worked out based upon "alien technology", simple answer, there was no alien technology to reverse.
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So, what you're saying here, is that IF we do in fact have the recovered vehicles, we must have already been able to duplicate this technology. Why must this be a completed endeavor? Also, how do you know it hasn't already been duplicated, and put into production? Here's an example..... The stealth technology was completed nearly 25 years ago. Do you think that maybe they've been working on something else since? Aurora Maybe. There is also evidence that states some of our stealth craft have alternative propulsion methods that allows them to attain orbit. Outside of the earths atmosphere.

To summize, just because you haven't seen it on your evening news, doesn't mean there isn't something new already developed, or being developed.


I can understand you want to fall for the illusion of aliens being on this planet, after theres been many years of people claiming one thing or another, Hollywood films and programs also being made to "cash in".
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I've been researching this topic since I was a 10 year old kid. That was back in 1974. I began my interest by reading Carl Sagen. I later was given Project Blue Book as a gift from my father. I didn't dream things up from any movie, and I consider it an insult for you to assume that everyone who takes this subject seriously has fallen for some grand illusion. Granted, there are many kooks involved in this subject, some have already been exposed as CIA influenced, others really are guniune kooks, and/or charlatons out for a buck. However, there are also those who just want to discover the truth, and have noticed a consistent behavior by our leaders of ridicule, and lies over the past 50 years. Enough to KNOW that there's some truth to it all.

Your view of this is like how an ancestor might of thought that someone moved the sun across the skies and hid it up for the night. Science has altered that perspective of what really goes on, and it required people to analyse things scrupulously and create many devices to indentify the truth of the matter further.

If your telling me that there is still some mystery like the sun rising, even with all are current technology, then we are never going to know from your perspective. (As from mine we already do know.)
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If we all took the stance that you yourself have in these discussions, we'd probably still be ruled by those who thought the World was flat, and the sun revolved around the earth.

Your comments over this thread appear to have been taken directly from the debunkers handbook.

They can't get here from there because the distance is too great.

Why wouldn't they just land on the White house lawn.

Why would our Govmt keep this a secret....

Only kooks think there's anything to the subject.

I'll tell you something Stryder, there are more Americans who believe the Govmt is hidding information of UFO's than who oppose that belief.
 
Can you support that last statement with any credible poll?

:m: Peace.
 
Well... not in most cases.

In any event, I would hardly call a sample size of 1024 people out of a population of approximately 292 million representative. Wouldn't you agree?

:m: Peace.
 
VRob,
I mention those points because you seem to be looking for something "beyond" all call of reason.

My position is this, I believe that the whole UFO phenomona is a shut case, in the sense that there isn't anything spectacular for people to report and this has been proven by the lack of credible evidence.

However I don't suggest that there aren't any forms of conspiracies, but you should look at other areas than just the military for your answers.

For instance the number of bizarre cult groups that have manufactured things to get followers, The groups that are responsible for secret experiments and not forgetting the espionage groups across the world that have slowly thinned out over the more recent years.

(Cults are mentioned to be responsible for cattle mutilations, although a drugs Trafficker that doesn't want too many "common people" snooping around might butcher a few livestockto put the fear up them.)

An aspect of abductions tends to move towards certain secret groups of Psychiatric doctors since some of the strength of the Nazi party was foundered from illegal eugenic studies and inhumane treatment.
 
Well, If it's true, then why do 'they' want my e mail !
"There ain't such thing as a free lunch!" amigo.
 
Stryderunknown said:
VRob,
My position is this, I believe that the whole UFO phenomona is a shut case, in the sense that there isn't anything spectacular for people to report and this has been proven by the lack of credible evidence.
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Your last 4 words are 100% INCORRECT!!

There is plenty of VERY Credible evidence. Have you ever read a book on the subject? I'm not talking about some abduction case, or some other fringe article. I'm talking about a book that goes back to the beginning and steps you through the subject from day 1 up to today? I think you might be very surprised by what you learn. And trust me, you have much to learn on this subject.

Here's a couple for you to ponder:

Above Top Secret, by Timothy Good.
Blank Check, (Author ??) - Attempts to follow the money with regards to Black Projects.
Alien Agenda, by Jim Marrs.
Above Black, (Author ??)

Most of these books do not attempt to make any sensational assumptions. They mearly state the facts on this issue, and how it has been handled by the Military and intelligence communities.

One key FACT I've found in reading these books is this. You don't tell your deepest secrets to Elected Officials. This includes Presidents!
 
goofyfish said:
Well... not in most cases.

In any event, I would hardly call a sample size of 1024 people out of a population of approximately 292 million representative. Wouldn't you agree?

:m: Peace.
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Goofyfish,

You asked me to show you a credible Poll, to back up my previous statement. Did I not provide you this?
 
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