How come theists take offense so readily, and how to avoid offending them?

[wynn]

I think good or bad are subjective values and have different meanings in different spectrum.

Technically, yes ...

Does this mean you abdicate your right not to be offended?

I have the right not to feel offended.

Bur from the perspective of theists, I do not have the right not to be offended.

If I do feel offended by a theist, then, from the perspective of the theist and God, I have no right to in any way express or feel that. Because if I, I will be faced with eternal consequences.

You cannot see yourself arguing for either side of the equation?

Sure. But for what purpose?

It would be a very strange atheist, I think, who was rejected by God into his position.

??

God - and theists - are the ones who say "You're not good enough for Me" - and this is how some people become atheists.

 

[wynn]

I think if there is something we do not like in others, then the best place to start changing it is with oneself.

But theists don't have to do that.

 

[S.A.M.]

But theists don't have to do that.

You assume

1. all theists are the same
2. theists are not subject to social pressure
3. there is no possibility of theists being in a minority

I once started a thread asking atheists to enumerate their suffering as compared to theists. In actual fact, historically, there is more theist-theist debate/revolt/disagreement/suffering than theist-atheist.

 

[wynn]

1. all theists are the same

In a way they are.

2. theists are not subject to social pressure

They may be subject to social pressure, and they take offense at it, and God is on their side.

3. there is no possibility of theists being in a minority

So what if they are a minority?

I once started a thread asking atheists to enumerate their suffering as compared to theists. In actual fact, historically, there is more theist-theist debate/revolt/disagreement/suffering than theist-atheist.

What does this matter to an atheist?

 

[S.A.M.]

What does this matter to an atheist?

Storm in a teacup, maybe? Most theists have no opinion of atheists, except as concerns the afterlife, which atheists do not believe in. It would be like a Muslim getting anxious because they are not saved by Jesus. I have no idea why, if you do not believe something, it should be offensive.

 

[wynn]

I do believe in the afterlife and I do believe in God. But I don't make a point of declaring that though, because I have not been approved of by God.

But when a theist gets offended by something I said or did, or calls me an atheist - then I don't know what to do, what to think, what to feel.

 

[(Q)]

I think its foolish to get offended by ideas and words, the only thing which is worth getting offended over is suffering.

That is exactly what the offenders intent is, that of eternal suffering. How do you respond to that?

I do however think that civil debate is more productive than jeering and mocking.

Unfortunately, those who intentionally offend are not interested in civil debate, but are only interested in offending. How do you respond to that?

I think if there is something we do not like in others, then the best place to start changing it is with oneself. That is the true test of how effective it would be and how well you can expect it to work on others.

Unfortunately, the intentional offenders believe it has nothing to do with them as they pass that responsibility onto a third party, hence are not accountable for their offenses.

 

[S.A.M.]

I do believe in the afterlife and I do believe in God. But I don't make a point of declaring that though, because I have not been approved of by God.

But when a theist gets offended by something I said or did, or calls me an atheist - then I don't know what to do, what to think, what to feel.

1. Why do you need approval? Why do you believe you don't have it?

2. Why do you care if some theist gets offended by what you believe? Aren't you the only person who matters in this regard?

 

[wynn]

1. Why do you need approval?

Just like one cannot simply say one is a Harvard student, if the authorities at Harvard have no knowledge of said person being enrolled there.

Why do you believe you don't have it?

If I had that approval, then I wouldn't have the faith problems that I do, would I?

2. Why do you care if some theist gets offended by what you believe?

What else can I presume, except that they are on better terms with God than I am, that they do have God's approval?

Aren't you the only person who matters in this regard?

No, without God's approval, no.

 

[S.A.M.]

Just like one cannot simply say one is a Harvard student, if the authorities at Harvard have no knowledge of said person being enrolled there.

You do not believe it is sufficient to apply? You want a letter of acceptance? Faith is not so cut and dried.

If I had that approval, then I wouldn't have the faith problems that I do, would I?

As long as you seek faith outside yourself, you will have problems.

What else can I presume, except that they are on better terms with God than I am, that they do have God's approval?

No, without God's approval, no.

Clearly you suffer and I have no answers for you.

 

[Lori_7]

I do believe in the afterlife and I do believe in God. But I don't make a point of declaring that though, because I have not been approved of by God.

But when a theist gets offended by something I said or did, or calls me an atheist - then I don't know what to do, what to think, what to feel.

what do you mean you haven't been approved of?

 

[wynn]

You do not believe it is sufficient to apply? You want a letter of acceptance? Faith is not so cut and dried.

Apparently, an official letter of acceptance is what theists require me to have. Although I am quite sure that even if I had one, they would question its veracity.

As long as you seek faith outside yourself, you will have problems.

Yes, theists keep saying such things. But if I do "seek inside myself", they take offense, and I am back at the beginning.

 

[wynn]

what do you mean you haven't been approved of?

That I may consider myself a theist.

 

[S.A.M.]

Apparently, an official letter of acceptance is what theists require me to have. Although I am quite sure that even if I had one, they would question its veracity.




Yes, theists keep saying such things. But if I do "seek inside myself", they take offense, and I am back at the beginning.

From what you say, it appears you object to the thoughts and opinions of other people. Seems to me, that is your problem, rather than theirs. Die Gedanken sind frie. People can think anything they like. You are not obliged to accept it but you cannot object to the fact that they think in a manner which you find disagreeable. Ironically, this is the complaint you have with them.

 

[wynn]

From what you say, it appears you object to the thoughts and opinions of other people.

No, I don't object to that per se. I object the obligations that ensue for me from other people having whatever thoughts, opinions or actions they do.

Unless, of course, I freely accept that I will burn in hell. To this day, I haven't been able to do that.

Seems to me, that is your problem, rather than theirs.

If this is my problem, then how can I undo it?
It seems to me that the only way to deal with that problem is if I would somehow manage to annihilate or abolish myself.

People can think anything they like.

But why may I not think what I like?

You are not obliged to accept it

What choice do I have? It is either accept what they say, or burn in hell.

Which wouldn't be so hard, were it not that different people say different things, mutually exclusive ones. Somehow, I am so flawed so as to be unable to accept that.

 

[S.A.M.]

What choice do I have? It is either accept what they say, or burn in hell.

So if an evangelical Christian told me that I would burn in hell if I did not embrace Jesus as my saviour my only options are to accept what they say or burn in hell? Have you considered independent thinking as an option?

There is a verse in the Qur'an which goes: You will never worship what I worship, I will never worship what you worship. To you be your way, to me be mine.

Its quite appropriate here, I think.

 

[iceaura]

Most theists have no opinion of atheists, except as concerns the afterlife,

Untrue.

which atheists do not believe in.

Some do, some don't

It would be like a Muslim getting anxious because they are not saved by Jesus. I have no idea why, if you do not believe something, it should be offensive.

It's not the belief that offends.

I don't even always know what the specific beliefs are, that motivate the latest round of offensive, presumptuous, nutcase mess deposition that I have to clean off my shoes this time, or barricade my home against, or pay to ward off from some cartoonist or book author, or if I am less fortunate create some means of hiding from the soldiers - they are seldom directly relevant.

It's not that anyone can, for example, reason with the theistically motivated. Such motives do not answer to reason.

And that is one important explanation of why they offend - they threaten.

 

[wynn]

So if an evangelical Christian told me that I would burn in hell if I did not embrace Jesus as my saviour my only options are to accept what they say or burn in hell?

Yes.
Unless of course you have a special connection with God that absolves you from the obligations people may impose upon you, in the name of God or otherwise.

Have you considered independent thinking as an option?

The consequence of which being - - - eternal damnation?

 

[S.A.M.]

Yes.
Unless of course you have a special connection with God that absolves you from the obligations people may impose upon you, in the name of God or otherwise.

The consequence of which being - - - eternal damnation?

I guess the difference between you and me is that I do not feel obligated to take other people's beliefs seriously if I do not agree with them. 80% of the world has some theistic beliefs. To enumerate all the theological differences would take probably as many points of view as there are theists. To consider myself obligated to every one of them would be both cumbersome and irrelevant, since if every one of them were to vanish overnight, I would still be left with my beliefs which they could not take with them [although it might give me a few bad turns wondering why they had all vanished].

 

[wynn]

I guess the difference between you and me is that I do not feel obligated to take other people's beliefs seriously if I do not agree with them.

But how did you get to have this stance? Have you always had it, or have you developed it over time, while starting out with feeling obligated to others?