How can justice be achieved?

Justice is a false perception, just as morals are. Perceptions desinged by humans to explain and justify an existance that is without meaning or purpose.
It is unachievable, as it is a false perception.
 
Hapsburg said:
Justice is a false perception, just as morals are. Perceptions desinged by humans to explain and justify an existance that is without meaning or purpose.
It is unachievable, as it is a false perception.
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Are you sure it's a false perception? I'm sure I could write a few stories and have you say "Oh, well, it's not just for that man to steal this other man's life savings and go unpunished for it."
 
xelius00 said:
What I'm trying to say is that I don't believe it's possible to achieve perfect justice unless we know what justice is and what makes it.
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Justice as usede in this thread has already been defined. I guessed you missed that post. You are focusing more on the word and it's techncial definition than the intention of the post.
If you would like, don't even use the word justice.
The point is a better society where all people are experiencing prosperity. In our current primitive system, not all experience prosperity. Only the few rich do.
 
xelius00 said:
*Oh and this of course assumes we're talking about a developed country. The third world is another story completely.
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We are not specifiying a developed country. We are talking about any country in general.
All current systems are primitive systems based on desperation. Our society ensures that desperation exists in order to function.

Employers do not serve employees. Employes exploit employees. It is impossible to prevent exploitation in a society where desperation is ensured.

The question about how can justice be achieved. The question means how can a world where there is no desperation be achieved.
Then again, desperation can be subjected to being that you are desperate to see this latest movie.

What I mean is a world or city where people are not necessarily happy every second of every minute. I'm talking about a city where there is nodesperation in terms of everybody has access to abundant health food, high levels of health and education, ability to think freely and be an individual, safety from crime and persecution, clean healthy safe surroundings in symbiosis with earth and nature.

The practical question is about how can this be achieved.


In my eyes, the very definition of docile is the belief that it cannot be achieved. The poor are docile for believing it cannot be achieved. Therefore, they do nothing to pursue it's achievement.

Those in control, or those that the docile allow to be in control may or may not believe it can be achieved. They may believe it can be achieved, and do not want it to be achieved because they want to control the docile, and such a society would be a threat the existence of docility and therefore, a threat to their control.
Others in control may desire such a city for the sake of the people. But they do not pursue it because they believe it can never be achieved. They are just as docile as any poor person.

Docile to who? Those in control and intentionally want the wold to remain the way it is so they can stay in control and achieve more control.
 
Hapsburg said:
Justice is a false perception, just as morals are. Perceptions desinged by humans to explain and justify an existance that is without meaning or purpose.
It is unachievable, as it is a false perception.
Click to expand...
Nobody is talking about the term justice in it's metaphysical sense.

The question is how can justice be achieved.
That question is just a simeple way of saying: How can a city or world where there is no desperation, and only prosperity be achieved? - a world with freedom, health, education, safety, comfort, and all the great things for everybody and not a select few?
 
The docile view:
1. People are brainwashed to believe it will never happen. Therefore, it is no pursued.

2. People are brainwashed to believe in the science fiction nightmare world syndrome. Therefore it is not pursued.
We are afraid to pursue such a world because science fiction had brainwashed us into believeing such a world will inevitably collapse. Wrong.


PROGRESS CHART:
Survival of the Fittest ----------> Responsibility of the Fittest.
Primitive Progreessive

As civilization progresses, we see a trend from primitive (Unfit serve the fit). The trend moves towards Prgressive (Fit serve the unfit).
Although we are still pretty much on the primitive side, we see more and more of a progressive mentality as history progresses.


How can we allow a faster progression towards the achievement of such a world as I described? Pure conscious pursuit of it without question. Such as the docile are brainwashed to believe it can never be achieved. We must brainwash ourselves into believing it must be achived.
 
cool skill said:
How can we allow a faster progression towards the achievement of such a world as I described? Pure conscious pursuit of it without question. Such as the docile are brainwashed to believe it can never be achieved. We must brainwash ourselves into believing it must be achived.
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And just who will be the leaders to follow? Who will make the laws?Who will be taxed and how much? How will they divide the resources of the world as today America uses about 50 percent of the worlds resources and the rest of the world has to use the rest. How will environmentl issues be solved if the oil tycoons become the new leaders? How does the world get to vote on these leaders? Many questions about your theories but few answers that really benifit everyone.
 
The only thing irrellevant to your paragraph is the last statement.
"Many questions about your theories but few answers that really benifit everyone."


What is the point of that?
You ask questions, and find the answers. Lots of people have different ideas and answers to those questions which all part of the study on the main question can be achieved.
So what is your point about that?: "Many questions about your theories but few answers that really benifit everyone."

It is true there are many questions. There are many answers and theories also, but let's say few of the really do benefit as your statement claims.
I have concluded why few benifit. Mainly because they do not ask how it or why it must be achieved without regard.

The way you are making it sound though is as if you are coming from the frame of reference of asking the question why will it never be achieved. My point is frame of reference.


My allegation is to come off in a frame of reference of asking the how question, and other practical questions.
How will the governing structure be arranged in such a porgressive city? Who will lead?
Who will be taxed and how much? Will there be a tax? How will we solve the envoronmental issue? What will the political system/voting system be like in a progressive society? ETC.

My second allegation is that coming off from a frame of reference that it will never be achieved is docile and completely impractical.

As long as we do not constantly search for the answers on defining how a progressive city can be achieved, and coming up with plans to achieve such a society without desperation, we set ourselves up for never achieving it before we even pursue it. There is no practicality in this. There is no purpose in society as a whole except to continue competing aganst one another.
 
I could easily proposed the same statement:
cosmictraveler said:
And just who will be the leaders to follow? Who will make the laws?Who will be taxed and how much? How will they divide the resources of the world as today America uses about 50 percent of the worlds resources and the rest of the world has to use the rest. How will environmentl issues be solved if the oil tycoons become the new leaders? How does the world get to vote on these leaders? Many questions about your theories but few answers that really benifit everyone.
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The difference is in the purpose.
Am I stating this on my pursuit of the progressive society? Thereby I am pursuing theories to answer all these questions and more while I design the progressive city and the progressive means of acheiving it.

OR

Am I stating these under the frame of reference that these are the reasons a progressive city will never be achieved.


Which frame of reference would be more practical?
A. Frame of reference in acknowledging all the obstacles, and coming up with solutions to over come them.

B. Fram of reference in focusing on barriers and why it will never happen.


The practical question:
How can we achieve this? Why must we achieve this? What will my part be in the pursuit towards this?

The impractical question:
Why will this never happen? What obstacles can I focus on so that I do not focus on the ultimate goal?

The practical question comes from a frame of assuming it can happen. The impractical comes from a frame of assuming it cannot.
 
My two cent

I didnt read a few of the total posts but, Ive come to suspect lately that justice is not supposed to be achieved by people in a world-veiw tangible sort of way. Someone mentioned time being the measure of justice? Is that right? Anyways,Individually, justice is apprehended when causes, effects, and the totals (balance) are understood AND practices be formed and implimented by way of the understanding by the individual. I believe if you looked at this world of ours as an entity, like a mother say, it has to be able to provide fertile ground for discovery for all levels of evolution in nature and for its various inhabitants. An integral part of this learning system for all levels of things and being, involves adversity and tension. Without it mother would be hardpressed to raise consciousness because what would there be to inspire us to look further than the contentedness and ease we'd be left with in an obviously just world?. Maybe Im wrong but it seems like the kind of justice youre looking for eliminates suffering where we believe it is unfair because we're unable to find reasons for it, to somehow justify it. That lacking of knowing is part of what is inspiring us to come to know, as is illustrated by this conversation. Its not fair maybe that we shouldnt know and that we should have to suffer on in pursuit of possibly knowing. Maybe justice should be seen from the universal perspective that says, this is just, if it works as it was designed to work. If that is the definition, and the world is designed to stimulate the evolutions of all these variable consciousnessses?? thru adversity and tension... then all is well. There is justice already.
 
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ok. then here is a solution to apply to the entire world. get rid of all the people. engineer a virus or pathogen that makes homosapiens sterile. it would return the world to the animals. sound just to me.
 
Wrong. I don't need to explain myself again.
You are completely changing definitions.
 
Of course you don't get it. Only those that know how to read can figure it out.
 
Cool Skill,

I think I get it.

Your view of justice can be described as a static, unchanging world, full of marxist assholes.

You need to take responsibility for yourself instead of trying to coerce others into a system that makes sense only to yourself.
 
Wrong.
This has nothing to do with my view of justice or marxism.
This is about a progressive society.
Justice or not. Marxist or not.

I'm sure everybody would rather live in a society where they are more free to pursue what they want, live a high quality life, be healthy, be safe, be in a clean environment etc.

What makes you think there is anything more than just that?
Especially after I have repeated myself over and over.
All I see is your misinterpretation of what I have made completely clear over and over.
What's your problem?
 
cool skill said:
I never question whether or not justice can be acheived. A planet with no poverty and crime. The only question in my mind is what can I do to help bring this about.


ok...be and generous, and maybe become a cop. Organize charities, become an excellent and influential author that writes moving speeches to compel people to be kind and helpful to one another. Convince people that materialistic acquisition isn’t what living is for, and so for those who are wealthy, they will share their wealth with less fortunate people. you’ve got a lot of work to do. But at least you wont have to initiate any of it. Its stuff that's already being done.

As for myself, im not rich but im very generous. I feed people who ask me for money for food. I participate in events that create charity. I work towards affecting the government at a state and federal level supporting programs and candidates that support supporting people who are going without the basic necessities in life. I speak out against the selfish rich. I go out of my way to help people with things i know how to do for free. I ask for little. I get by with little, to try and set an example. I don’t commit crimes and discourage crime. I don’t practice violence. I do practice and encourage ahimsa.

Practicing and encouraging others to practice these kinds of practices are answers to your question. Being rude and condescending on the other hand, are conducive to finding more of like, the opposite of what your question seeks to find. Its hard to inspire people to change or think things over when youre being a fishoil douche to them.

Ps if you’re going to insult someone you might try to find something that isn’t so obviously not the case to pin on them, otherwise it just makes you seem terribly unaware in general.
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Universal justice can not be achieved by its very definition. It is a thing based on perspective. As a species, we haven't even come to a real conclusion on the topic of right and wrong and probably never will... so how can we handle justice?

If we ever do get close to any highly ordered society, be it Utopian or Dystopian, I will be right there to cause chaos and make it rise up out of its stagnation to smite me. The same holds true for multitudes. Society needs problems and change and instability and bias. It needs a dragon to face and two more standing right behind that one to keep it busy.

Complacency should be feared above all else.
 
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