Homosexuality and Religion

[maxg]

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M*W: Back in those days sex activity was prevalent every which way and was accepted. Women and children were property to be used and abused. Sexual intercourse between men-men, brothers-sisters, parents-children (usually the father only had this right). In those days, it was no crime to participate sexually in any of these scenarios.

I understand that. I was just pointing out the problems with relying on an outdated moral code that is supposed to have come from God.

 

[Saquist]

You can only condition it so far. Are you straight? If so go try conditioning yourself to be gay. Then come and post in here and tell us that homosexuality can be chosen.

And really, why if it was a choice, would anyone choose to be gay. Who would make a choice that gets them vilified and possibly physically assaulted.

I can condition myself to do anything. I'm straight and have resisted conditioning to be homosexual. I already know I have a choice. If I have a choice then everyone has a reasonable choice aswell.

 

[SnakeLord]

I can condition myself to do anything.

Utter tosh. Condition yourself to believe without any doubt that leprechauns exist. I'll give you a gabillion pounds if you can do it.

I'm straight and have resisted conditioning to be homosexual

That's uhh... because you're straight. Any straight person can uhhh.. resist "conditioning" to be homosexual. It's because they're straight. F00

 

[James R]

I'm straight and have resisted conditioning to be homosexual.

What conditioning have you resisted, explicitly?

Who or what put pressure on you to "turn gay"?

 

[shichimenshyo]

I can condition myself to do anything. I'm straight and have resisted conditioning to be homosexual. I already know I have a choice. If I have a choice then everyone has a reasonable choice aswell.

This is just silly. You really think that are society was putting pressure on you to turn gay? Well if thats the truth what pressures, and how did so many others resist. I mean being gay has no downsides right, nothing like being persecuted, degraded right?

 

[John99]

I dont know how to break this to the OP but it is society that has issues with homosexuality. Religion is, for the most part, a scapegoat. but gay people have contributed immensely to society and more people are aware of this than ever before.

 

[SnakeLord]

I dont know how to break this to the OP but it is society that has issues with homosexuality. Religion is, for the most part, a scapegoat.

Utter tosh. I doubt many would argue against religion having been the mass contributer in society as it currently is.

Lev 18:22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. "

god does not use the term "detestable" with any other sexual law, including sleeping with animals. It is quite safe to say that the bible and these laws have had mass impact upon society.... for the past few thousand years - indeed I ask you.. where else has it come from?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Lev 18:22 "'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.'"

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M*W: You know I blame those stupid scribes for everything, but what if this was mistranslated as, "Do not lie to a man as one lies to a woman...;." Now, that makes some sense to me.

 

[Jan Ardena]

SnakeLord,

Utter tosh. Condition yourself to believe without any doubt that leprechauns exist. I'll give you a gabillion pounds if you can do it.

Why are you so sure that homosexuality is not a choice?

Utter tosh. I doubt many would argue against religion having been the mass contributer in society as it currently is.

You live in the UK, so do I. So I am aware of "society as it currently is". Please explain to us how this society is a result of the contribution of religion.

Lev 18:22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. "

god does not use the term "detestable" with any other sexual law, including sleeping with animals. It is quite safe to say that the bible and these laws have had mass impact upon society.... for the past few thousand years - indeed I ask you.. where else has it come from?

What impact?
Is homosexuality, bisexuality, adultery, murder, covitiousness, greed, envy, common place in this society or not.

Jan.

 

[davewhite04]

This was, IMO, opinion the meaning of "let him without sin cast the first stone"

Jan

Exactly.

 

[davewhite04]

If Eve is a female form of Adam, and they had sex and had children, then the concept of incest wasn't even born yet. So at what point does incest become a transgression?

Lev. 18-20 when God introduces new laws to Moses.

Why is it universaly understood that Adam and Eve were the first people on earth, from whom all peoples came?
Could it be that Adam was the first born of a new race, or even species?

It's possible that Adam and Eve were a new species, but who would all the 'other' people be? Would they be a different species or would they be identical to Adam and Eve but for some reason were not good enough to be hand picked by God...

There are passages which, in my mind, causes doubt as to they being the progenitors of mankind.

"Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that EVERY ONE that findeth me shall slay me. "

Who is "EVERY ONE"?

I think Cain is talking about things that will come to pass at a future date.

"And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch. "

Why would he build a CITY?

The hebrew word used for City can simply mean encampment or post. I suppose this just shows that Cain moved away from the place he called home to a new outpost in the land of Nod.

 

[davewhite04]

There might be injunctions against abusing children (although there is no penalty proposed, so I guess it's not as bad as 2 men having consensual sex) but it was common practice for girls of 12 to be married and there was no prohibition for children older than 3 years to be married (and that marriage to be sealed with intercourse).

Have you got evidence for this activity happening within the Jewish community 2000 or more years ago?

 

[maxg]

Have you got evidence for this activity happening within the Jewish community 2000 or more years ago?

I think was common to marry at the age of puberty (which could be 12 for girls)--as to marriage with children younger than that I don't know of any examples but there does seem to be allowances for cases where it may occur.

In the Babylonian Talmud, the Tractate Niddah (m. 5:4) states "A girl three years and one day old is bethrothed by intercourse."

http://books.google.com/books?id=Lh...ts=We5e_VHMHU&sig=SnJNR6XQTR55jfGSQXMkjSN4Vaw

If a law is made to account for what happens when someone has sexual relations with a child over 3, then I suspect it must have occurred. Then as now there were probably pedophiles. What's different is now we put them in prison, then they made them marry the child they had sex with.

 

[visceral_instinct]

I can condition myself to do anything. I'm straight and have resisted conditioning to be homosexual. I already know I have a choice. If I have a choice then everyone has a reasonable choice aswell.

Of course you can 'resist' conditioning to be gay. You're straight. You couldn't become gay if you wanted to. It's exactly the same for gays. They couldn't become straight even if they wanted to.

 

[Orleander]

...they made them marry the child they had sex with.

that poor child. I suppose rape victimes 'got' to marry their attacker as well?

 

[CutsieMarie89]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was reading through the OT of the Bible and I noticed that it is a book of living guidelines for men by a man (God or heavenly father). It rarely refers to women and how they act unless it invovles men somehow. Only lying with a man is 'detestable' so does that mean God has no actual opinion regarding lesbians? Just curious. Since the 10 commandments are directed at men as well explain to me why I should follow them other than I might feel like doing so. I'm just asking?

 

[nova900]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was reading through the OT of the Bible and I noticed that it is a book of living guidelines for men by a man (God or heavenly father). It rarely refers to women and how they act unless it invovles men somehow.

Considering the Hebrews at the time were a very strict patriarchial society (or what the priesthood wanted them to be) it is understandable. Not right, but nonetheless expected.
It's one of the reasons I just don't have much use for the OT. I find it lacking in spirituality but rich in ignorance.

 

[maxg]

that poor child. I suppose rape victimes 'got' to marry their attacker as well?

Yep. Deuteronomy 22:28-29 covers that. The woman has to be a virgin (i.e., unmarried), the man has to pay the father & he also loses the right to divorce her.

 

[SnakeLord]

Why are you so sure that homosexuality is not a choice?

That's a serious question? I can almost envision all of us at some stage in our life sitting down.. "hmm vagina or penis.. So hard to choose.. can I ask a friend?"

You are naturally attracted to whatever you are attracted to, be it animal, vegetable or mineral. Your taste buds happen to like the taste of lamb. You didn't choose to like the taste of lamb, you just do. Same thing applies.

You live in the UK, so do I. So I am aware of "society as it currently is". Please explain to us how this society is a result of the contribution of religion.

We would need to start by taking a journey through history. Such examples would include Elizabeth I and compulsory church attendance, (Uniformity Act). However, to save a very long discussion, I believe it should be sufficient enough to point out education for centuries upon centuries that taught these beliefs, the bible and biblical law - indeed they still do. It is still a legal requirement in England to conduct a daily act of worship largely or wholly of a christian nature.

I couldn't name you one person over the age of say 3 that isn't aware of the concepts of god, heaven, hell. Noah and the drowning of bad people is taught to 5 year olds etc. Children can barely walk before having these ideas imprinted on the brain - from parents, schools and even cartoons.

The impact of religion upon what society is and was is simply undeniable. Society certainly wasn't born and ruled by atheistic thinking.

What impact?

Where to start. Perhaps the victims could discuss how much "shall not suffer a witch to live" helped them get killed, how women priests were not allowed until recently, homosexual marriages, women being afforded the right to vote etc. Mark Twain says it best..

During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. The Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church, after doing its duty in but a lazy and indolent way for eight hundred years, gathered up its halters, thumbscrews, and firebrands, and set about its holy work in earnest. She worked hard at it night and day during nine centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood.

Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry. Who discovered that there was no such thing as a witch--the priest, the parson? No, these never discover anything. At Salem, the parson clung pathetically to his witch text after the laity had abandoned it in remorse and tears for the crimes and cruelties it has persuaded them to do. The parson wanted more blood, more shame, more brutalities; it was the unconsecrated laity that stayed his hand. In Scotland the parson killed the witch after the magistrate had pronounced her innocent; and when the merciful legislature proposed to sweep the hideous laws against witches from the statute book, it was the parson who came imploring, with tears and imprecations, that they be suffered to stand.

The Fly.

Is homosexuality, bisexuality, adultery, murder, covitiousness, greed, envy, common place in this society or not.

Certainly because, against the wishes of the idiocy that is religion, people remain human.

 

[davewhite04]

Hey maxg,

I think was common to marry at the age of puberty (which could be 12 for girls)--as to marriage with children younger than that I don't know of any examples but there does seem to be allowances for cases where it may occur.

In the Babylonian Talmud, the Tractate Niddah (m. 5:4) states "A girl three years and one day old is bethrothed by intercourse."

http://books.google.com/books?id=Lh...ts=We5e_VHMHU&sig=SnJNR6XQTR55jfGSQXMkjSN4Vaw

If a law is made to account for what happens when someone has sexual relations with a child over 3, then I suspect it must have occurred. Then as now there were probably pedophiles. What's different is now we put them in prison, then they made them marry the child they had sex with.

That looks like compelling evidence, I'm surprised, but then again I don't believe that book was inspired by God.