Homophobia in atheists
- Thread starter S.A.M.
- Start date
The heart of the matter is that bigotry doesn't care if you're Muslim, black, white, queer, male, disabled, or whatever.
But, SAM, it gets really old hearing about how oppressed you feel. I like you and respect you, SAM, and I don't imagine it's easy being a Muslim Indian woman in the west. Not all Westerners are bad. Not all atheists are bad. We're not all here to oppress people, and most of us value diversity, or at least "me and mine" do.
However, no one likes a crybaby demanding "accommodation." No one likes someone who believes they are constantly under attack, and I think a lot of people get that impression from you. Everyone deserves judgment on an individual basis. You, me, everyone.
This ZJ is saying people shouldn't be lumped into a category based on belief.
I have no problem with homosexuals. As a matter of fact there's a really good American Scientific of the Mind issue out last month about sex and the brain. I concider gender identification, genetic, phenotypic, and brain-sex all to be different aspects of sex and the brain. Anyway, The People of Lot was brought up by DH. IMO homosapian, like the other Apes and most other animals, is by nature bisexual. I've seen some Thai Ladyboys that were really quite cute
Wait, that's a guy ?
:shrug:
I have NO idea why being Muslim, Indian/Asian/dark-skinned, or female requires special accommodation. You tell me. All three of those are common.
Re. oppression: You do complain a lot about how terrible Westerners are.
Exactly. That was my point.
Well after two world wars, centuries of colonisation, nuclear bombing, economic policies that created the Third world and a never ending series of wars since WWII, thats pretty self evident I think. If we avoided all of that what would we discuss here?
I think maybe we're not understanding each other. There's nothing really to accommodate.
And Muslims are innocent good guys who just got kicked in the guts? Both sides have been notoriously violent jackasses since the dawn of time. It's not exactly like children could walk across the Middle East with a purse of gold before Western involvement, and I don't believe all non-Westerners are bad. Do you honestly think ALL the causes of evil in the world are rooted in the West?
Let me give you an example. You walk into my store. I look at you, see that you're *cough* coloured *cough* and quickly walk over and tell you that I think you must have the wrong store. I feel that this is not a person I can accomodate.
At present? Hmm lets see, weapons <check> wars <check> poverty <check> support for undemocratic regimes <check> occupation <check> torture <check>
Seems like it. Would you like to compare notes?
As an American, I am going to call the Better Business Bureau, file a report, and go out of my way never to set foot in your stinky, racist store again.
(Just kidding, SAM. I'm sure the store smells fine.)At present? Hmm lets see, weapons <check> wars <check> poverty <check> support for undemocratic regimes <check> occupation <check> torture <check>
Seems like it. Would you like to compare notes?
You're saying the West is responsible for all poverty and war and weapons usage and torture? Cut me a break. Both sides have had those issues and inflicted them on the world since Christ was a cowboy.
As an American, I am going to call the Better Business Bureau, file a report, and go out of my way never to set foot in your stinky, racist store again.
Exactly. Hence my opinion of such people.
Sure, but I don't live in Nazareth circa 2 AD. I live in the here and now. I have lived and worked in Asia, the Middle East and the US. I think I am reasonably educated in politics and economics and its my opinion that at present, much of the misery in the world is completely avoidable, but will never be addressed because its much too profitable.
http://www.globalissues.org/
I concur that a lot of issues are pushed aside for profit, but you know what? People in the Middle East have done bad things to people in the West, girl. Not that people in the West haven't done awful things, but it's not like anyone's innocent here.
The West has also done lots of outstanding and good things. If you view everything through a narrow tunnel, everything looks worse.
I think the presumption that "religion is the sole source of homophobia" is wrong.
I can think of a few more sources.
First, the image of two guys having sex creeps me out a little bit. Women can do whatever they want and it won't bother me but guys can't.
My reaction to the idea of men having sex reminds me of my reaction to seeing maggots squirming about in a pile of shit. I have a little more revulsion to the maggots but not much more. I think the revulsion is instinctual.
People can learn to eat maggots so I gues that proves that my revulsion to maggots is either learned or these instincts can be overcome.
I also get a little creeped out at the idea of my parents having sex and it is my understanding that it is normal for people to be creeped out at the idea of their parents having sex. Maybe I should put a poll up on whether the idea of our parents having sex is creepy. I think this creepyness is just instincts trying to steer us towards the types of sex that helps propagate our DNA through future generations in a long term healthy way.
I have no problem with gay friends I just don't want to every think of them having sex.
The second nonreligious way in which I can see homophobia being created is as a reaction to the homosexual undermining of gender roles. Many people have only managed to be good at one thing and that is being very masculine or very feminine. They may have failed at everything else or not even tried anything else but if they can be a feminine woman or a masculine man they will feel they have succeeded and therefore will be able to cope with life when their mind starts comparing themselves to other people. But if gays are OK then what value do femininity and masculinity have? This valuing of femininity and masculinity is not compatible with gayness being OK so gays must be condemned.
The third nonreligious source of homophobia that I am aware of is confused traumatized ashamed bisexuals. Most if not all of us live in homophobic cultures. Idealism and logic can cause us to support gay rights but until kids are not afraid to come out as gay in junior high school (13-15) we can know that our cultures are basically homophobic. Some of the most aggressive homophobes have turned out to be bisexuals who were either trying to look manly to their friends by acting homophobic or who were filled with hatred towards themselves and gays because they could not handle their own bisexuality. I suppose religion does play a role in their not being able to handle their own bisexuality.
Above, 17 year old Gwen Araujo killed for being gay and fooling some men who had sex with her/him thinking that he was a woman. Gwen also known as Lida and Eddie.
from http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid19195.asp
I am not saying the guys who had sex with Araujo were bisexual, they just failed to notice that she was a man.
Hard to remember the good of the Middle East with issues like the subjugation of women and terrorism. And there's been some outstanding good, and I don't let bad seeds influence how I view the good of the whole.
:bravo::cheers:
The shame of forum's like this one is that only people in nations that have benefited from said history are on these forums. There is no diversity on this forum, no one is represented from nations from anywhere else on the globe other than from the west. It seems that if they do come here, they quickly let their anger get the best of them, get ridiculed and get banned. The truth, or indeed, a different point of view, is not something the masses, or overwhelming majority likes to hear. The fact is, the corporate media is owned. The international system of finance is owned. The education system is therefor owned. As such, the way you think, and have been trained to think, can it be conceivable? Has been "programmed" in much the same way a computer has been. I don't know why NO ONE will consider this possibility for one moment. Just ask yourselves. . . who does it benefit? Certainly not the poor, starving, and those suffering from resource wars in the the third world.
The added shame? The same families of power that initiated said policies, are still in control, and are manipulating world events to keep things the way they are and to make things even worse for the poorer countries of the world. Don't believe me? Research the links between one Prescott Bush and one Adolf Hitler. The names have changed slightly, but the aim of the game is always the same.
Things will not become more equitable, and the people on this forum will continue to believe their media and blame it on the populations of those countries of the world that are the "victims" of these heinous policies.
But, there are no victims. These populations continue to allow their middle and upper classes to associate with the people and countries of the "First" world which are completely corrupt and keep this unfair system in place. They intentionally keep them under the boot of subservience and oppression. The IMF, the WHO, the world bank, the UN? Slave masters. No one has any motivation to change or to help those that need it. If the third world countries wanted a change? They should all pull out of the UN, and all international bodies, kick out all companies and all first world countries, and keep their resources to themselves. Non-compliance. These governments are just as corrupt and play along with the lies.
Besides the fact that you've never actually been there?
The Esotericist said:
Its hard to judge a society objectively when you participate in it. I remember once, I was in a bar with some Indian and American friends. My Indian friend is very passionate about these issues and she was in a heated debate with the American on the war in Iraq and the exploitative nature of American policy. He heard out her entire speech [she is waaay more eloquent and articulate than I] and at the end of it said, "now you live here and you are a part of that same exploitative society".
And he was right.
So the tragedy is that in order to be able to communicate our sense of injustice effectively, we cannot fight the system, so we become the system. Because if you are outside the system, your voice is irrelevant.
It was the second most depressing moment of my life.
Besides the fact that you've never actually been there?
Bold assumption there, SAMmy, but true.
Although my mother's family has been friends with an Iranian family for well over a century, so I fancy I know a little about Middle Eastern culture on a personal level, or at least I fancy to fancy I do.
And that's poignant and lovely and holds some truth, but SAM, when you're telling us we're all knee deep in self-indulgent shit, I have to tell you that you're standing in the same mess. You have a bias, and I think probably more of one than I have. I don't default to blaming all problems on one culture and hold one that it is the perfect model of what humanity should be.
Everybody should bash away at the USA because the USA deserves bashing, but everybody should remember one thing: If their nation had the USA's power in all probability their nation would behave significantly worse with that power than the USA has. The USA has repeatedly failed to act morally but given that it is human nature to be greedy and self deceptive the USA has displayed remarkable restraint compared to what the dominant nations of the past used to do.
The US era of dominance is almost over now anyway because the USA is midway through a process of unintentionally committing economic suicide and the USA shows no sign that it will wake up to what it is doing to itself before the process is complete. The US taxpayers will not be willing to pay for this dominant military process after the economy has died.
The next phase will have many powers but no dominant powers. This could be an opportunity for the creation of world government and world peace but it is more likely that the World War 3 will break out as the many powers compete without having the overwhelming threat of the USA restraining them.
And that's poignant and lovely and holds some truth, but SAM, when you're telling us we're all knee deep in self-indulgent shit, I have to tell you that you're standing in the same mess. You have a bias, and I think probably more of one than I have. I don't default to blaming all problems on one culture and hold one that it is the perfect model of what humanity should be.
I don't ever recall doing that. I doubt I've spared anything I've examined too closely and I'm a harsh self critic too. So you'll have to excuse me if I say horsepuckey to you.
Plenty. War, genocide, colonialism, and occupation to name a few. Wait.......
At any rate, as I've already said there's no connection between being an atheist and magically liking homosexuals