Homesexuality

"What indications are there that behavior has a biological basis? [text provided by Joseph McInerney]

Behavior often is species specific. A chickadee, for example, carries one sunflower seed at a time from a feeder to a nearby branch, secures the seed to the branch between its feet, pecks it open, eats the contents, and repeats the process. Finches, in contrast, stay at the feeder for long periods, opening large numbers of seeds with their thick beaks. Some mating behaviors also are species specfic. Prairie chickens, native to the upper Midwest, conduct an elaborate mating ritual, a sort of line dance for birds, with spread wings and synchronized group movements. Some behaviors are so characteristic that biologists use them to help differentiate between closely related species.

Behaviors often breed true, that is, we can reproduce them in successive generations of organisms. Consider the instinctive retrieval behavior of a yellow Labrador or the herding posture of a border collie.

Behaviors change in response to alterations in biological structures or processes. For example, a brain injury can turn a polite, mild-mannered person into a foul-mouthed, aggressive boor, and we routinely modify the behavioral manifestations of mental illnesses with drugs that alter brain chemistry. More recently, geneticists have created or extinguished specific mouse behaviors—ranging from nurturing of pups to continuous circling in a strain called "twirler"— by inserting or disabling specific genes.

In humans, some behaviors run in families. For example, there is a clear familial aggregation of mental illness.
Behavior has an evolutionary history, as demonstrated by the persistence of some behaviors across related species. Chimpanzees are our closest relatives, separated from us by a mere 2 percent difference in DNA sequence. We and they share behaviors that are characteristic of highly social primates, including nurturing, cooperation, altruism, and even some facial expressions. Genes are evolutionary glue, binding all of life in a single history that dates back some 3.5 billion years. Conserved behaviors are part of that history, which is written in the language of nature's universal information molecule—DNA"


"Much current research on genes and behavior also engenders very strong feelings because of the potential social and political consequences of accepting these supposed truths. Thus, more than any other aspect of genetics, discoveries in behavioral genetics should not be viewed as irrefutable until there has been substantial scientific corroboration"

http://www.ornl.gov/hgmis/elsi/behavior.html#2



http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/291/5507/1232

http://www.ornl.gov/hgmis/publicat/judicature/article4.html
 
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For year's the gay community has led us to believe that homosexuality was not a choice but rather God created them that way, however, with the advance research of DNA there is no proof linking a gene to homesexuality. So here is the question, how should schools, parents, or pastors explain homosexuality, exspecially, to the youth?

That would be a false dichotomy. Just because something is not genetically determined it doesn't mean it must be a "choice". There could be a causal factor that is non-genetic. eg Pre-natal conditions, or a whacky theory like over dominant mothers.
There is something going on behind the scenes: twin studies have shown a concordance of 50ish% in identical twins. It is only 10ish% between adopted siblings.

You are correct in that assumptions about homosexuality being biological were all wrong. Generally those assumpiton revolved around a certain tiny part of the brain, but this idea turned out to be complete bollocks, as that portion of the brain only really gets different in size toward the end of adolescence, and sexual identity and gender preference are mostly sorted out in early adolescence, or so I hear.

That particular theory was regarding the observation that a certain area of the Hypothalamus was smaller in homosexual men. Those findings were confounded by the fact that many of the homosexual men had AIDS. That is not to say there is not a bio cause, just that this particular one didn't pan out.

Why this would be a moral issue escapes me. It seems to be mutually enjoyable, non-harmful fun that does not impinge upon anyone else's rights.
 
Homosexuality is an extremely moral subject, though not in the way we 'teach our children about it'


Its moral in the way that we act towads homosexuals in our society, and how we treat them. So we should cut all this shit about it not being a moral situation, because it is.
 
Actually, Unregistered, you're not entirely correct.

See, to most half-intelligent folk homosexuals are every bit as human as anyone else. And as such, I see no way to treat them, their sexuality or stereotypes of them any differently than those of other people.
 
I guess people have to become friends personally with more homos too realize that besides their sexual preferences they are just regular folks. :)
 
Lady

Given that DNA reasearch is fairly new, at this point, there has been no link between gene's and homosexuality. And I don't believe proof will ever be found. I say this from my own beliefs, not to offend anyone
Fair enough. I just wanted to make sure because, And I don't believe proof will ever be found seems to be a vital consideration.
to accept that God would create a behavior he identifies as an abomination...calls for questioning of God's character
I agree entirely. As a side note, many in history have agreed as well. While I'm not up on the Islamic debate, it is worth noting that in Christian history such a problem as God creating a condition God finds unsatisfactory has caused much discussion. (And to be fair: I've known gay Jews, but I haven't closely watched the rhetoric that leads to their acceptance in communities, and in all my pagan wanderings I haven't found any objections to homosexuality, but they may be there.)
I'm beginning to believe that homosexuality is a temptation like any other...... you either do it or you don't..given we are under Free Moral Agency....
Seems reasonable. "Temptation" lends a bit of a shadow to things we do, but I won't actually quibble that beyond pointing it out. But I must admit that I don't see what Free Moral Agency has to do with it. Perhaps I'm being too political.

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:
 
Its moral in the way that we act towads homosexuals in our society, and how we treat them. So we should cut all this shit about it not being a moral situation, because it is.

True, it does have indirect moral ramifications, but so do cars and email. Email may be used maliciously and cars may be used to maim, but most would not consider them moral issues. Lying is a moral issue because that exists as a moral issue without reference to extrinsic things.
 
Originally posted by spookz
"What indications are there that behavior has a biological basis? [text provided by Joseph McInerney]

Behavior often is species specific. A chickadee, for example, carries one sunflower seed at a time from a feeder to a nearby branch, secures the seed to the branch between its feet, pecks it open, eats the contents, and repeats the process. Finches, in contrast, stay at the feeder for long periods, opening large numbers of seeds with their thick beaks. Some mating behaviors also are species specfic. Prairie chickens, native to the upper Midwest, conduct an elaborate mating ritual, a sort of line dance for birds, with spread wings and synchronized group movements. Some behaviors are so characteristic that biologists use them to help differentiate between closely related species.

Behaviors often breed true, that is, we can reproduce them in successive generations of organisms. Consider the instinctive retrieval behavior of a yellow Labrador or the herding posture of a border collie.

Behaviors change in response to alterations in biological structures or processes. For example, a brain injury can turn a polite, mild-mannered
person into a foul-mouthed, aggressive boor, and we routinely modify the behavioral manifestations of mental illnesses with drugs that alter brain chemistry. More recently, geneticists have created or extinguished specific mouse behaviors—ranging from nurturing of pups to continuous circling in a strain called "twirler"— by inserting or disabling specific genes.

In humans, some behaviors run in families. For example, there is a clear familial aggregation of mental illness.
Behavior has an evolutionary history, as demonstrated by the persistence of some behaviors across related species. Chimpanzees are our closest relatives, separated from us by a mere 2 percent difference in DNA sequence. We and they share behaviors that are characteristic of highly social primates, including nurturing, cooperation, altruism, and even some facial expressions. Genes are evolutionary glue, binding all of life in a single history that dates back some 3.5 billion years. Conserved behaviors are part of that history, which is written in the language of nature's universal information molecule—DNA"


"Much current research on genes and behavior also engenders very strong feelings because of the potential social and political consequences of accepting these supposed truths. Thus, more than any other aspect of genetics, discoveries in behavioral genetics should not be viewed as irrefutable until there has been substantial scientific corroboration"

http://www.ornl.gov/hgmis/elsi/behavior.html#2



http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/291/5507/1232

http://www.ornl.gov/hgmis/publicat/judicature/article4.html


spookz



I don't believe we evolved from monkeys but rather a serpent. Perhaps scientist should investigate Gensis and do some research. I have a question and I know this isn't about homosexuality... If scientist believe we evolved from monkeys why didn't the rest change over to humans? Futhermore, I don't know of any animals that are homosexual.....do you? Perhaps scientist can take gene's from a homosexual and put it in an animal and watch to see if the animal becomes gay. (hehe)
 
voodoo,





Why couldn't choice be one of the options? Homosexuals themselves claim it to be genetic. I don't see how the lack of prenatal care would cause homosexuality....birth defects,retardation.....O.K.
 
Tissa,



Free Moral Agency....... We could do what we want ......we are given choices to do either what is consider right or wrong. Basically we can live our lives the way we want..
 
ha

lady
the days when i preached the word of science to the infidels are long gone.
however i'll give it a shot!

all the monkeys didnt change over cos we needed something to entertain us when visiting the zoo or going on safaris.
my dog is quite happy doing another dogs butt (i'll have you know!)
the thing is he wasnt always gay. i suspect some evil scientist
manipulated the mutt's genes.

ps: i like to think i am descendant from a serpent
much sexier than a monkey, wouldnt you say?
 
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In fact, he is not gay now. Mounting another dog is a display of dominance in the canine world. Even an alpha bitch will mount subordinates, male AND female, to show who's boss. The little pug dog humpin' your leg at a friend's house? He's saying, "who's your daddy" all right, but it has no sexual meaning whatsoever.

Peace.

__________________
Youth is the first victim of war - the first fruit of peace.
It takes 20 years or more of peace to make a man;
it takes only 20 seconds of war to destroy him.
  • -- King Boudewijn I, King of Belgium (1934-1993)
 
Lady: the prenatal conditions I refer to are things like exposure to testosterone and estrogen. Whether these are genetically determined, who the hell knows?
Choice could well be a component, but it is extremely likely that the determination of sexual orientation is not solely choice: if I were gay and separated from birth from my identical twin* there would be a 50% chance that he were gay. 20% chance for a non-identical twin and a 10% chance for my adoptive brother. Why is it 5 times more likely that my identical twin will like musical theatre and have excellent interior design skills?

----------------------
* how blessed the world would be.
 
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Monkeys

We didn't evolve from them, but we had a common anscestor.
Pretending we did, why should they disappear or evolve into us? If you have a kid, you still exist in your form rather than changing into rugrat form. Monkeys occupy a different niche, one that we can not.
Say we have two populations of monkeys that are geographically isolated. One can now change independently of the other one. One can evolve along the human path and the other can evolve along the monkey path. Why different paths? Chance, different conditions(eg predators, food, environment).
 
goofy
i dont have a dog
one of my ex's complained that sex with me was all about dominance and aggression. she is a lesbian now while i am on meds

anyway sex can be a multifaceted thing. doggie can dominate while getting his rocks off as well. yes? no?

:D
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The FABULOUS kingdom of GAY animals
A BIOLOGIST OFFERS THE FIRST VISION OF A TANTALIZINGLY DIVERSE NATURAL WORLD: NOT ALL ANIMALS ARE STRAIGHT ARROWS.

BY SUSAN McCARTHY | The scientist gasps and drops the binoculars. A notebook falls from astonished hands. Graduate students mutter in alarm. Nobody wants to be the one to tell the granting agency what they're seeing.

A female ape wraps her legs around another female, "rubbing her own clitoris against her partner's while emitting screams of enjoyment." The researcher explains: It's a form of greeting behavior. Or reconciliation. Possibly food-exchange behavior. It's certainly not sex. Not lesbian sex. Not hot lesbian sex.

Six bighorn rams cluster, rubbing, nuzzling and mounting each other. "Aggressosexual behavior," the biologist explains. A way of establishing dominance.

A zoo penguin approaches another, bowing winsomely. The birds look identical and a zoogoer asks how to tell males and females apart. "We can tell by their behavior," a researcher explains. "Eric is courting Dora." A keeper arrives with news: Eric has laid an egg.

They've been keeping it from us: There are homosexual and bisexual animals, ranging from charismatic megafauna like mountain gorillas to cats, dogs and guinea pigs. There are transgendered animals, transvestite animals (who adopt the behavior of the other gender but don't have sex with their own), and animals who live in bisexual triads and quartets.

Bruce Bagemihl spent 10 years scouring the biological literature for data on alternative sexuality in animals to write "Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity," 768 pages about exactly what goes on at "South Park's" Big Gay Al's Big Gay Animal Sanctuary. The first section discusses animal sexuality in its many forms and the ways biologists have tried to explain it away. The second section, "A Wondrous Bestiary," describes unconventional sexuality in nearly 200 mammals and birds -- orangutans, whales, warthogs, fruit bats, chaffinches.

Bagemihl's dry style is obedient to the precepts of scientific writing. He explains why animals can be called homosexual or bisexual, but not gay, lesbian or queer, and he follows the rules -- though "homosexual" frightens some who prefer terms like male-only social interactions, multifemale associations, unisexuality, isosexuality or intrasexuality. (Fortunately, as a book reviewer, I am not bound by this rule. We're talking gay animals!) Yet the book is thrillingly dense with new ideas, and with scandalous animal anecdotes. In other words, an ideal bedside read.

t's not just about hot sex. Bagemihl includes nonsexual bonds. Friendships. Female grizzlies sometimes form partnerships, traveling together, defending each other, raising cubs together and putting off hibernation in what seems to be an attempt to stay together longer.

Nor is it all cuddling and consensuality. Bagemihl chronicles homosexual incest (foxes), rape (albatrosses) and homophobia (white-tailed deer).

His favorites are beasts with "a special courtship pattern found only in homosexual interactions." Two percent of male ostriches ignore females and court males with a lively dance that involves running toward your chosen partner at 30 mph, skidding to a stop in front of him, pirouetting madly, then "kantling," which includes crouching, rocking, fluffing your feathers, puffing your throat in and out and twisting your neck like a corkscrew. A male ostrich courting a female omits the speedy approach, shortens the display, adds a booming song and may include symbolic feeding displays. Male ostriches have not been seen actually having sex, unlike male flamingo pairs, who mate, build nests and sometimes rear foster chicks.

Some homosexual animals have one-night stands and some have long marriages. Gay and lesbian geese stay together year after year. Bottlenose dolphins don't form male-female couples, but males often form lifelong pairs with other males. Some are interested only in males, but others are bisexual and happily indulge in beak-genital propulsion and more with male or female alike.

Male black swans court and form stable pairs. With two males, they are able to defend huge territories from other swan couples, which sounds like a double-income-no-kids situation except that they often manage to wangle some eggs from somewhere -- all right, they steal them -- and become model parents, twice as successful as straight parents.

There's a certain temptation to leaf through the book shouting "Caribou? Gay! Red-necked Wallaby? Gay! Golden Plover? GAY GAY GAY!" But of course it's not that simple.

All bonobos and 1 percent of ostriches participate in homosexual activities -- so within the animal kingdom there is tremendous diversity of sexualities. Moreover, the world is full of animals who are straight. But we know so little about the sex lives of most animals that we must be cautious in our assumptions. Many creatures have never been seen having sex of any kind. The black-rumped flameback has been observed in male-male mating, but never male-female mating. Yet presumably they don't buy baby flamebacks at the corner store.

As for why some animals are bisexual or homosexual, Bagemihl gives the subject brief, annoyed discussion: Obviously it involves both nature and nurture, both environment and biology. He notes that different groups of Japanese macaques have different levels and kinds of homosexual behavior -- which he interprets as a cultural difference.

Besides showing the prevalence of alternative sexuality, Bagemihl tells a fascinating story of the suppression of this vast body of information. "Zoology is a very conservative profession," and focusing on animal homosexuality is not the road to success. One researcher documented homosexuality in sheep, but didn't publish until she got tenure.

Surprisingly often, observers don't know what they're seeing. If males and females look alike, researchers assume that when they see animals mating, they are seeing a male and a female, and the one on top is the male. Thus, the penguin Eric, later renamed Erica. If they switch positions, no doubt it's just confusion.

Often, it's plain that animals are engaging in homosexual behavior -- short of wearing gay pride T-shirts, there's no way those walruses could be clearer -- but the observer can't fathom it.

One unusually candid biologist wrestled with the realization that the bighorn rams he studied frequently had sex with each other, and weren't just showing nice wholesome aggression. "To state that the males had evolved a homosexual society was emotionally beyond me. To conceive of those magnificent beasts as 'queers' -- Oh God!"

Bagemihl ridicules ingenious explanations researchers have given for why animals might appear not to be straight arrows. It's dominance. It's a contest of stamina. It's barter for food. It's aggression. It's appeasement. They're confused and don't realize that they're both the same sex. It's a way of reducing tension. They're just playing! And my favorite: It's a greeting.

Dominance is the most popular excuse, with animals portrayed as jockeying for status with the ferocity of assistant professors, when they're only fooling around. "At times, the very word dominance itself becomes simply code for 'homosexual mounting,' repeated mantralike until it finally loses what little meaning it had to begin with," Bagemihl writes.

Captive animals are subjected to the prison comparison: They're like prisoners in an unnatural situation, so that's not real homosexual activity in that cage. While some captive animals adopt an "if you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with" philosophy, others decline to have sex with animals they don't care for. When it comes to animals in the wild freely choosing to pirouette, or give the Really Big Greeting, this explanation collapses.

The idea that animals can't tell each other's gender and accidentally have sex or form homosexual pairs has the age-old appeal of making animals look really, really dumb, but doesn't hold up in the face of evidence that animals know quite well who they're hitting on.

Sometimes it just seems better not to bring it up. One researcher discovered homosexual mounting in white-tailed deer, yet when an 800-page book on white-tails was published, the researcher co-wrote the chapter on behavior with no mention of it.

A report on killer whale behavior that described homosexuality in male orcas was reissued as a government document for the U.S. Marine Mammal Commission with those passages -- and only those passages -- deleted.

Popular books by scientists often include material that doesn't make it into journals. The authors relax, drop the jargon, tell anecdotes, speculate. But, seeking sympathy for the animals they love, most scientists balk at describing bisexuality and homosexuality in the animals. Will people be less likely to save the gorilla if the gorilla has a gay lifestyle?

Bonobos are a partial exception. Recently a fair amount of information about bonobo sex lives has come out. Bonobos are new, bonobos are smart -- and it's hard to keep a camera on bonobos for longer than a minute without recording a sexual act of some kind. Yet popular books about the language capacities of bonobos, like Sue Savage-Rumbaugh's excellent "Kanzi: The Ape at the Brink of the Human Mind," leave the impression of a pure-minded primate egghead.

The lexigrams Kanzi and others are taught to use are not about sex. Yet see Page 67 for a thought-provoking diagram of hand gestures used during bonobo sex, ranging from "come here" to "move your genitals around." These signs, used by captive bonobos, were discovered by Savage-Rumbaugh and her colleagues. It's one of the classic errors in teaching animals language -- not letting them talk about what interests them. "Let's not discuss what you want to do with Panbanisha and Sherman. Let's talk about using the key to open the box and get some candy. No, actual candy."

As for the perennial issue of tool use, an entire category of tools has gone unmentioned -- tools animals make and use to masturbate. Dolphins and porcupines masturbate with objects, and primates regularly modify objects into suitable sex toys. A female orangutan bit pieces of liana to the right size, a male orangutan made an orifice in a large leaf, and a female macaque had five methods of making toys out of leaves and twigs. If an ape discovered electricity, but used it to power a vibrator, we'd be unlikely to hear about it.

Zoology adheres to a "folk model" of homosexuality as perverse, unnatural and bad, Bagemihl argues, and is far behind the humanities in recognizing it as a legitimate subject of inquiry.

Bagemihl formulates the charmingly named theory of biological exuberance, of which homosexuality is one manifestation. He wants to unlink biological analysis from the idea that reproduction -- and hence, heterosexuality -- is all. Biology must accept the apparent purposelessness of sexualities, he argues. Sexual pleasure is "inherently valuable" and "requires no further 'justification.'"

In support of this view, Bagemihl cites celibate animals, animals that exhibit shocking indifference to reproduction and species where sex is rare and difficult. He all but proves reproductive sex doesn't happen.

But of course reproduction does take place and must take place for natural selection to occur. (If creatures lived forever, they wouldn't need to reproduce, nor would they evolve.) The riddle is how a process driven by reproduction produces nonreproductive creatures, but it's not a very hard riddle, and indeed abundance, flexibility and exuberance are part of it.

Evolution is history. The forces of evolution operating in the past may have produced a creature that is fast, fierce or able to do calculus, but those forces don't direct a creature once it is born. Penguins who mated with other penguins of the opposite sex are the ones who left descendants, and every penguin is descended from penguins who committed at least one heterosexual act, but that doesn't mean this penguin, here and now, will commit only heterosexual acts. The capacity for pleasure that encouraged its ancestors to reproduce is available wherever the penguin chooses to direct it.

Successful life forms are characterized by diversity, so changing environments don't wipe them out. That diversity often extends to sexuality. Thus bisexuality and homosexuality are characteristics not of twisted nature, but of generous nature.

So what if animals are gay? Are people vindicated in our diverse sex lives by diversity in animals? If they put us on trial, can we bring as character witnesses lions who make the Sign of the Great Tawny Beast with same-sex lions? (And they do. Unless that's just a greeting.) No, not unless we would bring those same lions to testify that killing your new significant other's children is a useful way to free up their time for you and your future children. Animals do all kinds of things that we frown on for ourselves.

But we can bring the lions to testify that there's nothing unnatural about human sex lives, that bisexuality and homosexuality are not among those twisted human inventions, like income tax, or graduate school, or step aerobics, that have no close analog in the wild.

As Bagemihl says of this widely expressed idea, "What is remarkable about the entire debate about the naturalness of homosexuality is the frequent absence of any reference to concrete facts or accurate, comprehensive information about animal homosexuality."

There's no longer any excuse. At more than 750 pages of profusely illustrated, carefully referenced information, this is the ideal book to slam down on the fingers of anyone who says homosexuality isn't natural.
SALON | March 15, 1999

http://www.salon.com/it/feature/1999/03/cov_15featurea.html

critique of bagemihl's book
 
Spookz,


Interesting info on homo animals, forturnately, humans have not only choice but the knowledge of right and wrong, unlike animals. I found it quite odd. Animals usually have sex only during mating season unlike humans. At least thats what I was lead to believe. Now I really wanted to know why the rest of the monkey's didn't evolve........ perhaps I'll ask my professor..........and I don't find it sexy to be an ancestor to a monkey...either....I was simply reading The seduction of Eve by Satan through the serpent........ but I know eveyone doesn't believe in the Bible.
 
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Originally posted by Voodoo Child
Lady: the prenatal conditions I refer to are things like exposure to testosterone and estrogen. Whether these are genetically determined, who the hell knows?
Choice could well be a component, but it is extremely likely that the determination of sexual orientation is not solely choice: if I were gay and separated from birth from my identical twin* there would be a 50% chance that he were gay. 20% chance for a non-identical twin and a 10% chance for my adoptive brother. Why is it 5 times more likely that my identical twin will like musical theatre and have excellent interior design skills?

----------------------
* how blessed the world would be.


Voodoo,

I understand what your saying, however I still personally believe it lies in a person moral compass. True..... homosexual urges can tempt the strongest of us..... but ultimately it's choice.
 
If you can find that 1 person that loves, respects and admires qualities about you that noone else in the past has - who cares whats between their legs?
 
"I understand what your saying, however I still personally believe it lies in a person moral compass. True..... homosexual urges can tempt the strongest of us..... but ultimately it's choice."

Sexual preference is a choice? For the next 5 years I want you to only be a lesbian. After all, it's just a choice, right? So you should have zero problem and be 100% content and feel healthy spending, say, the next 40 years as a lesbian!!!
 
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