Homesexuality

[Lady]

Re: Springer? O-tay!

Tiassa,


]If God could raise the dead then why not let Abraham go forward with the actual act of sacrificing his son? It seems the intent is enough. Quit dodging the issue.


** Ask him? This has nothing to do with my topic.



o, dear Lady, I am not the first. Christians have known for a long, long time, and just had a hard time dealing with it.Nobody has shown me that the Devil is necessary or vital in terms of the occurrence of evil. Satan seems quite the unnecessary middle-man.Ah, so God is not the Supreme Authority? Without the equal authority of the Devil, evil would not exist? Perhaps you should expand on your point to cover such bases.Well, that notion presupposes the existence and authority of Satan.Just like, in order not to be a rapist, the man in the van gives a woman a choice: submit or get a knife in the throat.



** Who ever said Satan and God was equal in power?
** What does choosing the homosexuality lifestyle have to do with being raped?


In order for God to not be a tyrant? Choose God's way or be punished does not equal free will or free moral agency. In order for will or moral agency to be free it must be unfettered by external duress.In other words, God's law changes as ... who, you see fit? If it was a permissive will, it would permit--that is, give permission to--such behavior without the threat of reprisal on Judgment Day.Now that is quite a stupid leap. Try the actual issue.


** But you still have a choice.... and the consequences are made know......make your choice.




Why does there has to be a who?Would you please tell me what this has to do with anything? Had they actually eaten of the Tree of Life, why had they not achieved immortality? Had they actually eaten of the Tree of Life, why was God worried that they would eat from the Tree of Life?Actually, God doesn't force people to worship him any more than a rapist forces a woman to have sex with him. It is a matter of free choice versus duress that you seem to fail to understand. If "God does not force people to worship him", then "a rapist does not force a woman to have sex with him".



** Why don't you tell me why half of the stuff you introduced into my topic has nothing to do with the orginal questions?

** You was wrong, Adam& Eve could and did eat from the Tree of Life.

** I wasn't forced to worship God




In either case, it's your own damn choice, right? So why prosecute the rapist? The woman chose to have sex, which seems to undermine the notion of rape.And where does God say that?I don't see how telling a homosexual must change helps. Perhaps you could explain that, as an ethical issue (since that is the forum we're in): Why should a homosexual attempt to be a heterosexual?


** Whoever said a homosexual must change? I SAID WHY LEAD PEOPLE TO BELIEVE THEY CAN'T CHANGE?





Thank you for demonstrating that little point. Are you sure you're not an atheist provocateur? I don't know many who could have pulled off that little slam against Christian faith as well as you just did. Those who could ... well, they're both bright and obsessive. But it was a nice nail in the wrist of Christian faith.Funny, doesn't the Bible say something about God sitting in Judgment? Somewhere in Matthew, at least? Somewhere around Matthew 25, at least? You know, those on the right hand go to heaven, those on the left are cast into the fire reserved for the Devil and his angels? Remember Jesus' little speech there, about whatsoever you do or don't do to the least of his brethren?




** I personally don't find the R.C.C. to follow the Christian Faith......are you sure you're not a witch?

** Is this a religious forum? No



It's these little lapses that tip me toward the notion that you're an atheist playing provocateur. Nonetheless, the nail in the wrist about how upside down your world would be if God turned out to be something other than you wanted it to be was skillfully driven.Why are you so afraid to answer that question? I'm asking you. If I ask God, at least I get deafening silence. If I ask you I get sad excuses. Try answering the question. I am asking you!

** If you get sorry excuse's QUIT ASKING?



Lights, camera ... you're on.Well, at least you're honest about that.
• What is the limit of God's power?Something about ruby slippers and faery-dust comes to mind. What does Satan's wristwatch have to do with anything?And mankind can also choose between ice cream and sorbet (Sorbet is not a dairy product).Hang out with bonobos sometime.Yes ... human sexual obsession is definitely part of the problem. I still don't see why homosexuality is so damned important to you that you need to make a point of explaining it to children.Next time try answering the issue straight. When you figure it out, let me know. I'd loan you the fifty cents, but I think pay phones will cost more by the time you figure it out.And that's why God punished Adam and Eve for making choices?



** Why shouldn't kids learn alternate sexual lifestyles when it's represented around them. They learn the norm why not the other?

** Why homosexuality is important to me...........I could ask you the same?

** According to the Bible Adam & Eve's not in hell (punishment?)




f our choices were merely of academic interest to God, if our choices had nothing to do with morality, then why punish the people? God looked at the future in which homosexuals would exist and said, "It is good."And man has a choice between Barq's and A&W root beer. (A&W is not caffeinated.)Then why does God have the authority to judge those who serve Satan?Um ... okay. Jerry Springer ... when I think of a less insulting way to advise you of what the hell is wrong with that, I'll come back to it. In the meantime, I think I'm starting to see why you don't know the contents of the Bible you advocate.



** Where does God make that statement? Homosexuality being good?
**Why doesn't he have the authoriy to judge those who choose to worship Satan..........they knew the consequence's.
** Adam & Eve did eat of the Tree Of Life ( I knew that)





Tell me, what would God say about your choice to preach his name in ignorance? False teachings in the name of God are very sinful, you know.Okay, I'll bite. Why not?Talk about shooting fish in a barrel! Tell me, do you kick dogs or steal candy from children? There have been problems in the Catholic organization since before it was organized or catholic. I would have thought that the "Protestant reformation" would have been about more than labels and dominion. In other words, you'd think Christians would start cleaning their damn laundry instead of just hanging out more soiled laundry.I noticed you left out a part of that in order to divert the issue.


** I didn't choose to speak on all these other issues you bought up. But if you want to know ask him?

** You're guilty of twisting and leaving words out as well.


Did any of that divorced family remarry, Lady?

**And what does this have to do with my topic?


see you tap-dancing around the issues. Really, why can't you just focus on the issues you raised? Why are you afraid to face them? Oh, is Jerry Springer on? Forgive me. I hold myself answered. At least we know a little more about what's important to you.

** Who ever said it was important.........entertaing.

 

[Lady]

Re: Merlijn--true enough, but now I'm confused

Originally posted by tiassa
Merlijn:True enough, it seems. To point out your next post in the topic, you note that Lady's "grammar is okay". Why point that out?

The reason I ask is partially the reason for my mistake. I got used to reading around the awful grammar and spelling, and had been trying to not say anything about it. Oh, well. It caught up with me, it seems. Nonetheless, if not not is the way I should be reading it, I must wonder what the hell that response was supposed to mean in the context of its post.

Thanks for clearing that up, though I must admit it makes a couple of things less clear.

thanx,
Tiassa

If you'll stop crying I'll correct it.

 

[Tiassa]

Cowardice? Why won't you answer such simple questions, Lady?

Ask him? This has nothing to do with my topic.

Actually it does. Since you seem to have such an issue with the notion that God created homosexuals the way they are, it seems relevant to discuss the limitations of God's power. After all, in terms of social policy--where God's judgment and authority seem quite relevant to the Christian supremacists--the sin against God is a primary motivator of anti-gay movements. In terms of theology, it does seem odd that God should have to judge his own creations; perhaps God should create something suitable to his tastes for once.

Who ever said Satan and God was equal in power?

It's not even an issue until people start using Satan as an excuse for God's will. When Christians resort to asserting conditions whereby the Devil does not operate under the authority of God, they are awarding Satan at least equality enough to defy God's law.

What does choosing the homosexuality lifestyle have to do with being raped?

It has to do with the assertion that human beings, facing God's judgment and possible condemnation to the fires, still have free will. Free will does not exist under conditions of duress. To say that man has free will to adhere to God's law discounts the notions of redemption and judgment. One has the choice to obey God's law or be punished, just as the woman in the van has the choice to have sex with the so-called rapist or get a knife in the throat.

It's a functional comparison, see? Such possibilities exist according to the logic that asserts conditions of duress to equal free will or free moral agency.

But you still have a choice.... and the consequences are made know......make your choice.

Something about the rapist in the van? See the prior segment of this post for clarification.

Why don't you tell me why half of the stuff you introduced into my topic has nothing to do with the orginal questions?

Enumerate those factors and we'll examine them.

You was wrong, Adam& Eve could and did eat from the Tree of Life

You have no Biblical grounds for that claim. Furthermore, Genesis 3 indicates that, at the time God expelled Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden, that they had not taken of the fruit of the Tree of Life.

I wasn't forced to worship God

So you won't be punished or deprived should you choose to not follow God's law or way? Perhaps you could fill us in on the notion of judgment.

Whoever said a homosexual must change? I SAID WHY LEAD PEOPLE TO BELIEVE THEY CAN'T CHANGE?

Establish that people are being led to believe that they can't change. Then we can examine that point.

I personally don't find the R.C.C. to follow the Christian Faith......are you sure you're not a witch?

I'm not a very good witch in the sense that I'm not utterly dedicated to witchcraft. But everybody around here knows I have a long affiliation with The Craft. Yet you'll have to remind me: What does that have to do with anything?

Is this a religious forum? No

Then why raise religious topics?

If you get sorry excuse's QUIT ASKING?

True, but the side bets on whether or not you'll ever be honest in this discussion are raking me in a lot of money.

Are sorry excuses the best we can expect of you?

Why shouldn't kids learn alternate sexual lifestyles when it's represented around them. They learn the norm why not the other?

Heterosexual, reproductive-intended sexuality must occur for the human species to continue. Beyond reproduction, sexuality is an issue of different consequences. The basics of human function must be taught, but one needs no demonizing or praise in the classrooms of casual sex.

Why homosexuality is important to me...........I could ask you the same?

Yet another question you refuse to answer?

Pathetic.

However, I will do you the courtesy of answering your question: Homosexuality is important to me because for the last twelve years of my life people have been trying to pass laws in the name of religion that would suspend civil and human rights based solely on the gender of a person's sexual partner. This is an unacceptable situation, as it defies almost every American value which makes freedom important and human beings worth anything. I will not see my friends cast into social ostracism, will not see my neighbors relegated to second-class citizens, and will not allow the curtailing of my own expression as prescribed by such efforts as the OCA's 1992 push to remove books from libraries on the grounds that they mention homosexuality without condemning it as offensive, detrimental, or perverse. Homosexuality as a political and social issue will cease being of such importance to me when the persecutors cease their persecution.

Easy enough to understand?

According to the Bible Adam & Eve's not in hell (punishment?)

And where, according to the Bible, are they?

I mean, the Bible doesn't say Amelek is in hell, either.

In the meantime, I do believe their punishment was spelled out in Genesis. You ought to try reading it sometime.

Where does God make that statement? Homosexuality being good?

God had foreknowledge of the world, just as he had knowledge of Adam and Eve's coming sins. And yet he still went through with creation and called it "good".

Why doesn't he have the authoriy to judge those who choose to worship Satan..........they knew the consequence's.

I don't see the relevance of this question, since I wrote: Then why does God have the authority to judge those who serve Satan?

According to the Bible, God sits in judgment of human souls, rewarding some with admission to heaven and punishing others by casting them into the fires reserved for the Devil and his angels.

Yet if "they knew the consequences", then where is the free moral agency? What, there's consequences to a that free choice? I mean, if you jump off a building and plummet to the ground, that's a natural process of God's Universe. But if the consequence is one of deliberate will, it is duress. We're back to the rapist in the van.

Adam & Eve did eat of the Tree Of Life ( I knew that)

You knew that? Well, we've seen you claim that many times. However, you have not yet provided any Biblical evidence for this assertion which contradicts the evidence in Genesis 3.

Tell me: when you know something, how do you know it? Just because it's easier if you decide you know it? Because it's what you want to be true? When you know something that is in such direct contradiction of the established facts (e.g. asserting a Biblical condition that is so untrue as to be contradicted by the Bible), how do you know?

I didn't choose to speak on all these other issues you bought up. But if you want to know ask him?

If God chooses to answer, He will. In the meantime, why are you avoiding such questions? Is it not the least bit unethical for you to go about preaching falsehoods in the name of God? Is it not the least bit immoral for you to go about twisting the words of His book in order to make it easier for yourself?

You're guilty of twisting and leaving words out as well.

Document them. Drag them out, tell me why they're important.

And in the meantime, why do you want me to ask God what I'm asking you? Will God give me something better than a pathetic excuse?

Silence is golden, you know.

And what does this have to do with my topic?

You should try answering the question once in a while, and it can be made clear to you. In the meantime, why are you so afraid to answer the questions? Is it because you are actually smarter than you play your persona, and know that once you answer these questions honestly, you'll be left standing without any basis for your regard for homosexuality?

Who ever said it was important.........entertaing.

It's what you choose. Seems important enough to be chosen.

At any rate, it would serve you well to try approaching this topic honestly for a change. You're merely annoying in my opinion. But I do wonder about that God you seem to believe in. I wonder what he thinks of the various lies, misrepresentations, and cowardice you're showing in his name?

thanx,
Tiassa

 

[Tiassa]

As you would, Lady

If you'll stop crying I'll correct it.

What's this? Correct what you want. You're always welcome to remind me, as well, if your poor presentation has communicated the wrong ideas.

thanx,
Tiassa

 

[Frencheneesz]

STOP POSTING HUGE COLUMNS!

NOONE IS GOING TO READ THEM!

I certainly didn't, it is too much and too irrelevant to me.


AND NOONE ANSWERED MY QUESTION!!!!!!

WHY is EVERYONE talking about GOD? This is not about god. What the hell? If there is a god like christians proclaim, he is phycho and he created the world in his own phycho image.

 

[Tiassa]

Frencheneesz

STOP POSTING HUGE COLUMNS!

NOONE IS GOING TO READ THEM!

I love the notion that people are willing to bitch about what they won't read.

WHY is EVERYONE talking about GOD? This is not about god. What the hell?

Well, you could look at the topic post:

For year's the gay community has led us to believe that homosexuality was not a choice but rather God created them that way, however, with the advance research of DNA there is no proof linking a gene to homesexuality. So here is the question, how should schools, parents, or pastors explain homosexuality, exspecially, to the youth? (Lady, 9.11.2002)

And then there's my answer:

• Pastors: according to the prejudices of religion
• Schools: according to necessity and relevance
• Parents: according to the priority of principles versus the priority of function (Tiassa, 9.15.2002)

And then Lady's reply to that post:

to accept that God would create a behavior he identifies as an abomination...calls for questioning of God's character (Lady, 9.15.2002)

And the next day I comment on that questioning of God's character and the notion of "temptation", and then we hear a bit about "Free Moral Agency" (Lady, 9.16), and then some commentary from Lady (9.17) regarding Eve, the serpent, and the Bible ...

I would hope you see, Frencheneesz, that God has been part of the discussion from the very beginning.

If there is a god like christians proclaim, he is phycho and he created the world in his own phycho image.

Fair enough. I've thought the same thing many a time.

--Tiassa

 

[Merlijn]

Originally posted by Lady
**Why God choose that the sacrifice had to be perfect......ask him?
** This wasn't my orginal issue (perfect sacrifice)

No no no... Christ (and I expect you believe that is Jesus) being perfect is not what I referred to. I am sorry to have brought up the hole thing. I just thought the double negation was funny.

Originally posted by Lady
** I personally think it's a moral issue due to the content in the Bible
** I NEVER said God didn't Love gay men.

True. And I know the Old testament (Lev. 18:somewhere) says you should not have intercourse with a man like with a woman.
But Lev. 14:somewhere_else it says we should not eat pork and sea-fruit. It's cheap to point out each others "mistakes". But here it is functional. BECAUSE it's all in the Old Testament! And ever since we received the New Testament we all know that we should love God and that we should love our neighburs like ourselves. The rest are details.
Since Jesus said that not what goes into your mouth, but that wich comes out of it makes you unclean, it is okay to eat all the pork you can find. But what the vein of his Teaching means to all the other arbitrary rules from the Old Testament is forgotten or plainly ignored.

 

[Lady]

Re: Cowardice? Why won't you answer such simple questions, Lady?

Tiassa,





Actually it does. Since you seem to have such an issue with the notion that God created homosexuals the way they are, it seems relevant to discuss the limitations of God's power. After all, in terms of social policy--where God's judgment and authority seem quite relevant to the Christian supremacists--the sin against God is a primary motivator of anti-gay movements. In terms of theology, it does seem odd that God should have to judge his own creations; perhaps God should create something suitable to his tastes for once.It's not even an issue until people start using Satan as an excuse for God's will. When Christians resort to asserting conditions whereby the Devil does not operate under the authority of God, they are awarding Satan at least equality enough to defy God's law.It has to do with the assertion that human beings, facing God's judgment and possible condemnation to the fires, still have free will. Free will does not exist under conditions of duress. To say that man has free will to adhere to God's law discounts the notions of redemption and judgment. One has the choice to obey God's law or be punished, just as the woman in the van has the choice to have sex with the so-called rapist or get a knife in the throat.



** The limitations of God has nothing to do with Why homosexuals make claims of creation rather than choice futhermore, scienctist hasn't deemed it so. This is my argrument.. You sound as if you're mad at God because you can't freely worship Satan without suffering the penality.(sounds personal)

**Who ever said Satan doesn't operate under the authority of God?



It's a functional comparison, see? Such possibilities exist according to the logic that asserts conditions of duress to equal free will or free moral agency.Something about the rapist in the van? See the prior segment of this post for clarification.Enumerate those factors and we'll examine them.You have no Biblical grounds for that claim. Furthermore, Genesis 3 indicates that, at the time God expelled Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden, that they had not taken of the fruit of the Tree of Life.So you won't be punished or deprived should you choose to not follow God's law or way? Perhaps you could fill us in on the notion of judgment.Establish that people are being led to believe that they can't change. Then we can examine that point.I'm not a very good witch in the sense that I'm not utterly dedicated to witchcraft. But everybody around here knows I have a long affiliation with The Craft. Yet you'll have to remind me: What does that have to do with anything?Then why raise religious topics?True, but the side bets on whether or not you'll ever be honest in this discussion are raking me in a lot of money.

** If you read your own post you have established why people can't change.

** Affliation with the craft.......yet you don't believe in Satan( yeah right)

** Adam& Eve had immortality from the start and lost it for human kind upon the fall. Futhermore they could eat from every tree( Tree Of Life included) except the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil.



Are sorry excuses the best we can expect of you?Heterosexual, reproductive-intended sexuality must occur for the human species to continue. Beyond reproduction, sexuality is an issue of different consequences. The basics of human function must be taught, but one needs no demonizing or praise in the classrooms of casual sex.Yet another question you refuse to answer?




** SEE POST ENTITLED YOU WIN.



Pathetic.

However, I will do you the courtesy of answering your question: Homosexuality is important to me because for the last twelve years of my life people have been trying to pass laws in the name of religion that would suspend civil and human rights based solely on the gender of a person's sexual partner. This is an unacceptable situation, as it defies almost every American value which makes freedom important and human beings worth anything. I will not see my friends cast into social ostracism, will not see my neighbors relegated to second-class citizens, and will not allow the curtailing of my own expression as prescribed by such efforts as the OCA's 1992 push to remove books from libraries on the grounds that they mention homosexuality without condemning it as offensive, detrimental, or perverse. Homosexuality as a political and social issue will cease being of such importance to me when the persecutors cease their persecution.



** What does this have to do with creation VS choice?



In the meantime, I do believe their punishment was spelled out in Genesis. You ought to try reading it sometime.God had foreknowledge of the world, just as he had knowledge of Adam and Eve's coming sins. And yet he still went through with creation and called it "good".I don't see the relevance of this question, since I wrote: Then why does God have the authority to judge those who serve Satan?



** Sounds like your upset or scared.... hell is your destination for flirting with the Devil. (sounds personal)



Yet if "they knew the consequences", then where is the free moral agency? What, there's consequences to a that free choice? I mean, if you jump off a building and plummet to the ground, that's a natural process of God's Universe. But if the consequence is one of deliberate will, it is duress. We're back to the rapist in the van.You knew that? Well, we've seen you claim that many times. However, you have not yet provided any Biblical evidence for this assertion which contradicts the evidence in Genesis 3.


** Why don't you ask the Devil? I have photo of him on the paranormal forum, go see him.

** It's not my concern on why you can't worship Satan and still go to heaven?

ell me: when you know something, how do you know it? Just because it's easier if you decide you know it? Because it's what you want to be true? When you know something that is in such direct contradiction of the established facts (e.g. asserting a Biblical condition that is so untrue as to be contradicted by the Bible), how do you know?If God chooses to answer, He will. In the meantime, why are you avoiding such questions? Is it not the least bit unethical for you to go about preaching falsehoods in the name of God? Is it not the least bit immoral for you to go about twisting the words of His book in order to make it easier for yourself?Document them. Drag them out, tell me why they're important.


** I didn't twist what is spoken of about homosexuality nor did I even quote the scripture's.
** Look it up for your self


At any rate, it would serve you well to try approaching this topic honestly for a change. You're merely annoying in my opinion. But I do wonder about that God you seem to believe in. I wonder what he thinks of the various lies, misrepresentations, and cowardice you're showing in his name?



** I'm annoying.......but yet you continue to write me
** It's no point in trying to explain anything to a person who claims they don't believe in Satan but has affiliation with the craft. Mabey you should try be honest.

** As far as the other's you keep refering to let them write me.




And in the meantime, why do you want me to ask God what I'm asking you? Will God give me something better than a pathetic excuse?


** You have a problem with the Bible and my answers's are pathetic(right?) SO QUIT ASKING (CAPESH) I'm not the author. Would it make sense to ask the author?

 

[Tiassa]

It would have been easier for you to answer the questions, Lady

Lady

The limitations of God has nothing to do with Why homosexuals make claims of creation rather than choice futhermore, scienctist hasn't deemed it so

It would seem to me the two issues are essential.

From literature:

Then it follow'd most naturally, It is God that has made it all: Well, but then it came on strangely, if God has made all these Things, He guides and governs them all, and all Things that concern them; for the Power that could make all Things, must certainly have Power to guide and direct them.

If so, nothing can happen in the great Circuit of his Works, either without his Knowledge or Appointment.

And if nothing happens without his Knowledge, he knows that I am here, and am in this dreadful Condition; and if nothing happens without his Appointment, he has appointed all this to befal me.

Nothing occurr'd to my Thought to contradict any of these Conclusions; and therefore it rested upon me with the greater Force, that it must needs be, that God had appointed all this to befal me; that I was brought to this miserable Circumstance by his Direction, he having the sole Power, not of me only, but of every Thing that happen'd in the World. Immediately it follow'd,

Why has God done this to me? What have I done to be thus us'd? (Daniel Defoe, Robinson Crusoe, chapter 3)

Or from the Catholics, even though you seem to have some problem with them:

Nothing happens without the will or permission of God. Our Lord tells us that not one sparrow falls to the ground without the will of our Heavenly Father, and that the very hairs of our head are numbered. (My Catholic Faith, Rev. Louis LaRovoire Morrow)

Or some freethinking perspective on Puritanism:

People want to believe that they are good and that God will bless them. They want the world in which they live to be stable, even predictable, with definite rules; they don't want chaos or uncertainty. In this philosophy (derived from Puritan predetermination), God is the "big kahuna," absolutely nothing happens without his approval or say-so. This means that absolutely everything that occurs, does so for a reason -- and not just for a reason, but a good reason, because all of God's reasons are, by definition, good. (In God We Trust, Kyle Giblet)

Or perhaps from Christianworld Ministries:

• Nothing happens that God does not allow. Isaiah 14:24 says, "The Lord (YHWH) of hosts has sworn, saying, Surely, as I have thought, so it shall come to pass, And as I have purposed, so it shall stand."

• As Isaiah 45:7 says, "I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity: I the Lord (YHWH), do all these things." (Universal Salvation, Christianworld Church Ministry)

And perhaps an interesting Christian perspective that you might wish to shed light on in relation to the topic issue; after all, it seems to echo part of your point:

"So you believe that God controls everything, right down to the last detail?"

"Yes. To the falling of sparrows. To the number of hairs on our heads. Nothing happens apart from the Father."

"God causes everything directly?"

"No, of course not. That would be a form of pantheism. If God does everything directly, there is no such thing as secondary agents —individuals other than God. I said that God controls everything. Nothing, including the smallest detail, is outside His control."

"Does the Bible teach this?"

"Yes. Inescapably."

I took my Bible out. "All right. Where?"

"Is it safe to say you already believe that God providentially governs things like the physical world, and the animal kingdom? As in Amos 4:7, where the Lord causes rain to fall on one city, and not on another? Or in Matthew 6, where it teaches that the Father feeds the birds?"

"Right. There is no problem there. I am primarily concerned about His providential control over the free actions of men. Can God see to it that someone does just what God wants him to, and at the same time not violate the integrity of that person’s free will?"

"Certainly. This is one of those subjects that has too many verses to go over in one session. I'll have to give you another list to study later. But there are a few passages worth addressing now." (Easy Chairs, Douglas Wilson)

Or perhaps from Gospelcom:

We also have the security of knowing that nothing happens to us in this life without God's knowledge and care. Jesus reminded us that even the hairs of our head are all numbered. Furthermore, if we put our trust in God, he has promised to supply our every need. And Peter encourages us to "Cast all our cares on him because he cares for us." (How to Grow, ACTS International)

Now then, Lady, I would hope that you can see that by most, if not all measures of Christian faith, God is allegedly responsible for everything in the Universe. The only real question comes from the Easy Chairs excerpt, when the text claims that God can, by his power, force a human being to take action without overriding free will. Such is the flexibility of the word free, I suppose.

Nonetheless, as every hair on your head is counted, so is every cell and every gene. God, being Supreme according to Biblical assertions, wills the human condition such as it is.

How is that important to homosexuality? Perhaps it's presumptuous to think you don't understand that connection, but instead of a lack of evidence supporting the notion of your understanding, I see a mountain of evidence supporting your lack of understanding.

God creates people as they are. And we see in these excerpts the assertion that God can force people to action. It would seem like free will or free moral agency do apply once we establish that not having a choice equals free will.

Now, if large segments of Christianity did not make public issues out of homosexuality, did not move to persecute homosexuality, did not claim homosexuality "unnatural", I doubt the manner in which God created homosexuals would be at all relevant.

You sound as if you're mad at God because you can't freely worship Satan without suffering the penality.(sounds personal)

Nah. I just think it's really, really stupid to assert that someone choosing under duress has free will.

Who ever said Satan doesn't operate under the authority of God?

I personally don't think Satan operates outside of God's will. I think Satan is a conceptual patsy designed to remove attention from the fact that an allegedly good and loving God commissions evil.

However, if a Christian chooses to excuse God by saying that the alleged evil is the result of Satan, I'm wondering how that condition excuses God. God must still will this evil, for nothing happens without God's will. If I pay a hit-man to kill someone, am I exonerated because I did not fire the mortal round? If I watch a friend murder someone and choose to not intervene, am I not responsible for my failure to protect life? The bottom line is that if one approves of what happens when one has the power to stop it, one is still responsible. I happened to get transfixed by a morbid "true crime" story on TV last night. It seems that a wicked stepmother had a friend claim to be the cousin of a 10 year-old. The friend managed to sign the boy out of school, and though the boy didn't know the cousin very well, he left willingly in her custody. The stepmother was hiding in the backseat. As the friend drove away, the stepmother emerged from beneath a blanket and proceeded to strangle and beat the boy to death. The friend, claiming she was in shock at this turn of events, numbly continued to drive the car out of town. She did help conceal the body. So it would seem that when they convicted her of abduction and mistreatment of a corpse, the state had a case. However, by the ideas we're discussing here, I would have to say the murder conviction was completely out of line. After all, she merely allowed the murder to happen when she had the opportunity to stop it. It's not like she actually killed the kid.

In that sense, I do wonder if people realize what happens when they take down their own principles in search of justification for an idea.

For instance, in our debate: is homosexuality really so important to you that you will distort the Bible? Is it really so important to you that you will claim a reduced scope of God's authority in order to exonerate Him?

In the end, even if Satan does "tempt" people into homosexuality, (A) God approves of this temptation, and (B) God wills the conditions that allow the submission to temptation.

If you read your own post you have established why people can't change

Well, given that I don't see that, perhaps you'd best cite the text and give us some commentary. In the meantime, I still want to know how people are being led to believe they cannot change.

Affliation with the craft.......yet you don't believe in Satan( yeah right)

Got my walking papers from Satan ages ago. He's a nice guy, but we don't work well together. Believe me, it's healthier for Christendom in general if the religious and spiritual visions of my youth are never legitimized. And as I learned a little more about Satan, I found that his station is an unfortunate result of Christian denial. Christianity manufactured Satan as a theological persona from the dregs of apocalyptic Judaism and elements of small-minded fear. I highly recommend Elaine Pagels' The Origin of Satan.

Adam& Eve had immortality from the start and lost it for human kind upon the fall. Futhermore they could eat from every tree( Tree Of Life included) except the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil.

Are you able to establish that Biblically?

Didn't think so.

SEE POST ENTITLED YOU WIN.

And?

You know, more to the question is where that post is. It's not in this topic, insofar as I can tell using a text search on every page of the topic. Sciforums' search engine couldn't locate the post searching either a wildcard of the word win or by surveying the whole of your posts at Sciforums. I can fairly conclude that the post doesn't exist, which condition doesn't surprise me. Nonetheless, would you prefer me to interpret that as your response is yet to come or that you have no response whatsoever? (I even checked to make sure a text search would read post titles.)

What does this have to do with creation VS choice?

Umm ... you asked why homosexuality was important to me in the sense we're discussing.

Furthermore, Christian groups frequently raise challenges against human and civil rights based solely on the gender of a person's sexual partner. While US law says homosexuals can be gay and does not distinguish between chosen or created homosexuality, the notion of choice and creation seems to be a primary motivator of those who would destroy human rights and dignity in the name of the Bible and its God.

Sounds like your upset or scared.... hell is your destination for flirting with the Devil. (sounds personal)

No, it's more a matter of how silly that kind of religion is. Society is for everyone, and I appreciate diversity, but Christians seem to have the collective effect of bogging down social progress and upsetting social harmony. If someone has a good reason to rock the boat, more power to them. But I do wish the Christians who behave this way would at least find a reason. In the meantime, I find it odd that such Christians spend so much time worrying about other people's sex lives.

Why don't you ask the Devil? I have photo of him on the paranormal forum, go see him.

Really, I have to advise you that it is a very bad state for Christianity if you legitimize the religious visions that occurred to a protestant (Lutheran) born pagan surviving a Catholic school. Leave those visions as mere neuroses or else it will be my regret to inform you that Satan doesn't know what the hell God's problem is, either, and Jesus Christ can't express to me why anyone's fighting except that it's God's will.

Point being, I've asked the Devil before. I've also spoken with Jesus on that count. It seems to me, based on the content of your posts, that you would not like the answers The Son gave, and this is why I advise you to cease with silly rhetoric like that, because you probably don't want to deal with the facts that would be in evidence should those visions be legitimate.

Furthermore, why are you running even farther away from your topic? I noticed that in your two-point response to the text you selected, you chose to not comment on the inadequacy of your Biblical assertions.

Is it that much easier for you to focus on Satan than it is to give your own faith a moment's honest consideration?

It's not my concern on why you can't worship Satan and still go to heaven?

Heaven, in my opinion, is well-beside the point. Furthermore, this isn't about worshipping Satan, and I seriously wonder why you're so frightened of your own topic. It's a little sad, and I'm more than slightly embarrassed for you. Keep it up and I might be moved to pity you.

I didn't twist what is spoken of about homosexuality nor did I even quote the scripture's.

You have made assertions about the Bible which you cannot support Biblically, and which contradict the text of the Bible. The problem with you not quoting Scripture is that when you make random assertions like "Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the Tree of Life", you are contradicting the Bible and providing no evidence to support your assertion. It would be helpful if you actually would quote Scripture because most of your assertions about the Bible have the quality of ass-ventriloquism. In other words, it's just mere flatulism.

Look it up for your self

The epitome of spreading God's word? It would be nice if you could actually demonstrate that your assertions about Biblical matters were in any way true or even legitimate.

I'm annoying.......but yet you continue to write me

Knocking Christians is a little like shooting fish in a barrel. I'm happy to give you a soapbox to further undermine the Christian quest for God's kingdom. I'm more than happy to let Christians weaken Christianity. Believe me, as annoying as you are, I do take some small delight in the living result. I smile when I think of people reading your words and wondering if Christians really are that devoid of intellect. In the end, potential converts think about it and say, "I don't want to become like that. If God makes me incoherent, frightened, and bitter, why should I want to take that step down into the gutter?"

It's no point in trying to explain anything to a person who claims they don't believe in Satan but has affiliation with the craft. Mabey you should try be honest.

Honesty, m'Lady, is something people get tired of in me. I think people wish I would lie a little more around here. After all, the number of complaints I've been getting lately from people who are upset that they can't understand me tells me that I haven't dishonestly tailored my words to suit people's tastes. And, furthermore, given that my view upset both Christians and atheists alike, I'm willing to stand on the honesty of examining what others are unwilling to consider.

We used to have a couple of posters that liked to employ simple turnabouts. Like your jab at honesty. Like them, you have unfortunately overlooked a critical detail. The jab is secondary; the conditions must exist for the jab to be effective. Merely playing rubber-glue is still child's play, just like it was when I was a child.

You have a problem with the Bible and my answers's are pathetic(right?) SO QUIT ASKING (CAPESH) I'm not the author. Would it make sense to ask the author?

Well, if you believe any of it, I would expect you to at least know what it is you believe. But that doesn't seem to be in evidence.

What makes it really annoying is that you consistently dodge the issues that are central to the topic itself. As long as you continue to assert these views, and as long as you do so as demonstrably dishonestly as you have, I shall continue to ask you if you have anything beyond pathetic excuses. Of course, I will eventually get tired of it and conclude you really are that stupid, but for now I maintain my underlying hope in humanity; nobody's really as stupid as your arguments make you out to be.

The funny thing is that if you'd answered these questions when they were asked, we would probably be done with this debate by now.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure the word you're looking for is capiche.

"Capesh" sounds like a Byzantine seafood restaurant.

--Tiassa

 

[Tiassa]

Close enough

SEE POST ENTITLED YOU WIN.

Lady

I think I can hold myself answered now about the whereabouts of this post.

At least, I think I can.

I think it's the topic entitled You've Won.

Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

thanx,
Tiassa

 

[Bubblecar]

If sexual orientation towards one sex (whether homo- or heterosexual) were not genetically determined, we would have to conclude that ambisexuality is the genetically determined "universal" sexuality, & that inclinations towards one sex or the other were socially determined.

There are many problems with that idea, not least of which is the fact that individuals with homosexual orientation appear to be a quite small minority in every culture. Why should this be the case, if everyone is "born" ambisexual?

Another problem is the question of "why"? What phenotypic (& thus genotypic) advantage could come fom universal ambisexuality - especially if that's allegedly lost to social influences (for most people) anyway? It seems much more likely that sexual orientation is indeed genetically determined, with homosexuality representing a genetic variation whose nature is so far not really understood (although the genetic determinants of heterosexual orientation are also not known at this stage).