History of the Holocaust

[CheskiChips]

Then you can understand my feeling when I visit a holocaust museum and find that it omits half the victims of the Nazis or barely mentions them.

If by 'understand your feeling' mean, 'have no sentiments about it at all'...then you're correct. Because that's my sentiment.


And I think you're lying again.

The US Holocaust Museum contains entire sections devoted to non-Jews, non-Jewish resistance etc. The one in Israel, Yad Vashem, refers to it as the Shoah. "Shoah" refers to the Jewish deaths only (during WWII, before and after), Hebrew doesn't even have the term Holocaust.

 

[pjdude1219]

The swiss bank got into massive amount of trouble because pre war, the Jewish people and other minorities placed lots of valuables in their "safe" keeping, and in return for said trust, they gave it to the nazis, and to this day there are many trials going on from either the descendants or the people whom were in the holocaust to be repayed.

But in reality, how could you repay such a terrible thing, sure you could repay the hundred thousand that survived but hwat of the 6 million? Well they said, "hey they want their country Israel back, it's the least we can do" And hence, the whole debate of Israel's soverignty comes into question.

Now the reason why you cant really repay gypsies and homosexuals and all the other minority groups is that practically none of them had such a universal and clear cut desire for some kind of repayment. And even if they gave them money or something, how do you repay the ones that died?

And the fact is also that the Jews originated from Israel, so it did make sense to the nations in power to send them back, as for the other minorities, you really could not tell where they came from.

actually they originated from judea. the jews of Israel lost their idienty as jews.

 

[CheskiChips]

actually they originated from judea. the jews of Israel lost their idienty as jews.

That's the stupidest argument I've ever heard.

 

[S.A.M.]

If by 'understand your feeling' mean, 'have no sentiments about it at all'...then you're correct. Because that's my sentiment.


And I think you're lying again.

The US Holocaust Museum contains entire sections devoted to non-Jews, non-Jewish resistance etc.

The one in Washington? Have they changed the exhibit? I did not see it when I went there

The one in Israel, Yad Vashem, refers to it as the Shoah. "Shoah" refers to the Jewish deaths only (during WWII, before and after), Hebrew doesn't even have the term Holocaust.

Thats incredibly self involved. Do you think the deaths of non-Jews are irrelevant?

 

[pjdude1219]

That's the stupidest argument I've ever heard.

based on what the archeologists say if you have a problem that science refuses to conform to what your want don't attack me over it.



and as someone who likes to swing their jewishness around especcially to defend anti islamic, anti arab, anti palestinian propaganda and bigotry you really should do a better job of researching the topic and knowing what people who actually study it have to say.

 

[StrawDog]

You sure about that? It seems to be treated as normal by every Muslim on this forum, every Muslim in the general public discourse, and every Muslim I've ever met when the subject came up.

Perhaps in regard to Zionism and Zionists. For the rest of it, not in my experience.

 

[CheskiChips]

The one in Washington? Have they changed the exhibit? I did not see it when I went there



Thats incredibly self involved. Do you think the deaths of non-Jews are irrelevant?

How is it self involved to have a memorial for Jewish deaths in a Jewish nation? Israel also doesn't have a Vietnam memorial, nor does it have a D-Day plaque...it also doesn't have the Armenian genocide memorial...hmm

based on what the archeologists say if you have a problem that science refuses to conform to what your want don't attack me over it.



and as someone who likes to swing their jewishness around especcially to defend anti islamic, anti arab, anti palestinian propaganda and bigotry you really should do a better job of researching the topic and knowing what people who actually study it have to say.

It's a stupid argument and you made it stupider. Judea is inside modern day Israel, it's the term for the southern portion of Biblical Israel in the second temple period. You made it stupider because you quoted archaeologists as if they disagree with biblical accounts...the accounts are discussed in Kings and Chronicles in depth - they are the primary sources.

 

[pjdude1219]

It's a stupid argument and you made it stupider.

nice job in showing of your characater starting off with the basesless attacks.

Judea is inside modern day Israel,

and?

it's the term for the southern portion of Biblical Israel in the second temple period.

Its not a term to describe southern biblical Israel Its the name of an actual country that existed the kingdom of judah.

You made it stupider

again with the attacking. you can't stand the way I present the people who support Israel and yet you seem hell bent on proving me right.

because you quoted archaeologists as if they disagree with biblical accounts...

most do in that they don't belive they are actual events that took place.

the accounts are discussed in Kings and Chronicles in depth - they are the primary sources.

the bible and torah aren't primary sources in this. they are myth not a document on history.

 

[CheskiChips]

nice job in showing of your characater starting off with the basesless attacks. and? Its not a term to describe southern biblical Israel Its the name of an actual country that existed the kingdom of judah. again with the attacking. you can't stand the way I present the people who support Israel and yet you seem hell bent on proving me right. most do in that they don't belive they are actual events that took place.

the bible and torah aren't primary sources in this. they are myth not a document on history.

Kingdom of Judah and Kingdom of Israel were only 80 years earlier the 12 tribes, combined they were all called Israel. That land apportionment is what is referred to as "Biblical Israel". The Kingdom of Judah was the southern half of biblical Israel that comprised of older Judah, Simeon, Benjamin and I think through Ephraim. The northern half is the Kingdom of Israel which was the rest of the tribes. They were a single kingdom, a disagreement on the succession of rulers was the cause of a divide. When archaeologists find better written accounts than those of Chronicles, which is simply a list of things that happened in no specific order of relevance...then archaeologists will have a better primary source. As it stands, archaeologists would be practically making things up without those books.

 

[pjdude1219]

Kingdom of Judah and Kingdom of Israel were only 80 years earlier the 12 tribes, combined they were all called Israel. That land apportionment is what is referred to as "Biblical Israel". The Kingdom of Judah was the southern half of biblical Israel that comprised of older Judah, Simeon, Benjamin and I think through Ephraim. The northern half is the Kingdom of Israel which was the rest of the tribes. They were a single kingdom, a disagreement on the succession of rulers was the cause of a divide. When archaeologists find better written accounts than those of Chronicles, which is simply a list of things that happened in no specific order of relevance...then archaeologists will have a better primary source. As it stands, archaeologists would be practically making things up without those books.

that post is so riddled in innacuracies, distortions, and crappy inferences to be laughable. your sure your jewish? I'd expect a jew to you know not be talking out of his ass about biblical events.

i suggest you read up on what a primary source is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source#Classifying_sources

 

[CheskiChips]

I'm not, you're just an ignorant moron and you're unwilling to admit you're wrong.

Solomon died around 100 years after Saul was born. The first Monarchy was constructed by Saul under the appropriations of Samuel...that's what those two books are about. Ishbaal took command after Saul died for the Monarchy established by Saul - however, the TRIBE of Judah proclaimed David king in a TEMPORARY succession. When Ishbaal was killed in battle with David, David officially became ruler over the original monarchy. Davids son was Solomon, the man who founded the temple. After Solomon died, the Northerners which became identified as "Israel" succeeded - they were then captured by the Assyrians.

However since the word "Israel" just means "Jacob", and all 12 tribes were from Jacob - the twelve tribes that existed during Samuels birth...then the Judaeans are actually from Israel. Naming themselves the "Kingdom of Israel" was their way of saying that 'it was actually Judaea that succeeded, and not us"

Can you please stop ignorantly denying facts now?

And your link proved my point.

 

[Musichascolors]

Watch "Shoah"

9 hours of primary sources.

 

[iceaura]

Thats incredibly self involved. Do you think the deaths of non-Jews are irrelevant?

Is it so mysterious to you that a memorial to the victims of the Holocaust would be a bit chary of honor toward perpetrators of the Holocaust?

The fact that the Nazis killed Russians and Poles and Gypsies, for example, does not alter the fact that Russians and Poles and Gypsies collaborated with the Nazis in rounding up, persecuting, and killing Jews.

It does not alter the fact that Jews were extracted from within all sectors of German and Polish and other society, not as a conquered or rebellious people separate and isolated, not for anything they did or controlled that separated them, but simply from the general community, they were chosen for systematic State persecution.

They didn't isolate themselves. They were isolated, by force, by the State. People who had converted to Catholicism and married in cathedral by a priest and lived normal German lives for years were tracked from their apostate Jewish grandparents and seized on the street, sent to Treblinka or Auschwitz. This is different from the massacre of the Gypsies, the killing of Danes of suspect loyalty.

 

[pjdude1219]

I'm not, you're just an ignorant moron and you're unwilling to admit you're wrong.

still trolling when you can't prove your point. I'd report you for your trolling/flaming but knowing my luck it wouldn't be deemed a worthy report

Can you please stop ignorantly denying facts now?

how can I stop doing something I'm not doing.

And your link proved my point.

??? how so the bible was written by people well after the fact by people not talking to the REAL primary sources

 

[pjdude1219]

Is it so mysterious to you that a memorial to the victims of the Holocaust would be a bit chary of honor toward perpetrators of the Holocaust?

No one is asking them to have a memorial for the nazis

The fact that the Nazis killed Russians and Poles and Gypsies, for example, does not alter the fact that Russians and Poles and Gypsies collaborated with the Nazis in rounding up, persecuting, and killing Jews.

this is completely bullshit. while individual polish did collaborate the polish as a nation did not and the gypies most defintely didn't collaborate to go after the jews. the russian ok yes they did.

 

[S.A.M.]

Is it so mysterious to you that a memorial to the victims of the Holocaust would be a bit chary of honor toward perpetrators of the Holocaust?

The fact that the Nazis killed Russians and Poles and Gypsies, for example, does not alter the fact that Russians and Poles and Gypsies collaborated with the Nazis in rounding up, persecuting, and killing Jews.

The group of people most involved in rounding up, persecuting and killing Jews for Nazis was Jews.

 

[Ganymede]

According to the list of WW2 casualties, the real Holocaust occurred in China and Russia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

 

[GeoffP]

That's a copout. If it's a known, predictable, and accepted consequence of the adopted tactics, calling it "accidental" because it is not the overall goal is a misuse of the word.

That's a fair point. But, it doesn't have the same ring as the deliberate hunting down of people, which was my point.

Personally [and this is my wish], I wish the Jews had done at least as much to get compensation for the other, non-Jewish victims of the Nazis as they did for the Jews, since they were better organised as a community. Including them in the holocaust museums would have been nice too.

Actually, I think entire nation-states based around linguistic/ethnic commonalities (Poland) or political philosophies (the USSR) would have had more opportunity and resources available for such a recognition. You might have a point in the case of the Romani and homosexuals; then again, maybe all groups should do for each other in such cases, but they rarely do. I agree that they should have been included in the Holocaust museum, naturally, I think your implication is the old subtle Jew-bashing suggestion that the Jews didn't care about the other victims. Damning through faint praise, as it were. Do you make the same argument for anyone else? Why or why not?

 

[S.A.M.]

Who else do you think the same argument can be made for? Where else are victims separated out and mourned by ethnicity of the mourner?

Do you know of any memorial dedicated to only the gypsy victims, only the homosexual victims or only the non-Jewish victims of the Nazis?

 

[spidergoat]

The group of people most involved in rounding up, persecuting and killing Jews for Nazis was Jews.

I see you haven't been the slightest bit educated by your alleged investigations.