History of the Holocaust

[S.A.M.]

I recommend you read victim testimonies. Collaboration is not uncommon. Note how easily the PA set aside the Goldstone report.

 

[spidergoat]

The operative word here is victim.

 

[John99]

Do you know of any memorial dedicated to only the gypsy victims, only the homosexual victims or only the non-Jewish victims of the Nazis?

not offhand but that is common and nothing wrong with it.

list all the memorials in the world.

 

[S.A.M.]

The operative word here is victim.

Indeed. And collaborators in the abuse of said victims. According to most testimonies, the cruelty of the Jüdische Ghetto-Polizei was "at times greater than that of the Germans, the Ukrainians and the Latvians."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Ghetto_Police

The Ordenienst, or Jewish police in Westerbork, were universally detested by camp inmates for their cruelty and role in collaborating with the Nazis. Composed of Jews from Holland and other European countries, members of the OD were responsible for guarding the punishment block and generally maintaining order in the camp.

http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/gallery/11548.htm

 

[spidergoat]

Well duh, I'm not unaware of this phenomenon, but they were as much a victim of the Nazis as anyone. If I force your father to rape you at gunpoint, that doesn't make him a rapist. You are just proving how disingenuous your exercise in researching the holocaust actually is.

 

[S.A.M.]

I'm merely reiterating what victim testimonies describe. Apparently the victims do not share your paternal view of their abusers.

On the opening day of what looked to be a drawn-out trial, a Tel Aviv carpenter tearfully recalled that Barenblat's Jewish police once trooped back from a round-up in Bedzin "loudly singing, as if from a victorious engagement." described how they herded Jewish men. women and children into trucks headed for Auschwitz. "Even the streets wept." the witness said.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,896660,00.html

 

[spidergoat]

It was not their idea, they were not responsible for the holocaust, that was the Nazis. Your only interest here is making Jews look bad. There's a word for that.

 

[S.A.M.]

Well I'm sure that will provide some comfort to their victims. You can make this about Jews and antisemitism if you like, but ignoring the role of Jews in Holocaust makes as much sense as ignoring the role of the Poles and Lithuanians. The Warsaw Jews hunted down and killed every collaborator they could find, so your defending them is somewhat strange.

 

[spidergoat]

I think that's what you like. I won't dignify your repulsive efforts with a discussion.

 

[S.A.M.]

Be my guest. I find it repulsive that you would defend those who abused and caused the deaths of countless innocent civilians simply because they were Jews.

Do you make similar allowances for the other Nazi guards?

 

[John99]

Be my guest. I find it repulsive that you would defend those who abused and caused the deaths of countless innocent civilians simply because they were Jews.

Do you make similar allowances for the other Nazi guards?

people were forced into situations. left to their own devices people are inherently good.

 

[S.A.M.]

people were forced into situations. left to their own devices people are inherently good.

What would force them to be more cruel than the Germans? To sing when rounding up women children and old people for Auschwitz?

There are sick people everywhere and they gravitate to roles where violence is permitted and enforced.

Moldetsky, a leader of the Zionist Workers Party (Poalei Zion), who was appointed head of the council of elders in Bedzin, and who, over the course of years, chose thousands of Jews for forced labor and extermination, succeeded in remaining alive. For the mass deportations, Moldetsky published a decree which was completely fraudulent and deceiving, in which he said: “Jews, dress up in your holiday clothes and march joyfully to the gathering places mentioned above. No one is to remain at home. Anyone who is missing will be prohibited from staying in the district of Upper East Silesia.” The Jews, in their innocence, obeyed him. The result was that people with large families — — as well as the elderly — — a total of 8,000, were sent to Auschwitz. The babies were pushed into sacks by the Nazis.

Over the years, Merin and Moldetsky tried to prove that only by cooperation and carrying out the orders of the Nazis would they save the Jews of Upper East Silesia. Their good friend, the Nazi, Drear, was able to boast to the central government in Germany on August 4, 1943:

“Since yesterday, August 3, 1943, my district is “Judenrein” (emptied of Jews). Liquidation of Jewish property is being taken care of by the administrators of the cities of Sosnowiec and Bedzin, whom I have appointed as the heirs of the Jewish property. For the sake of information, I would like to point out that in my district in the year 1939, there were more than 100,000 Jews, including men, women and children. Of them, 20,000 were sent to ‘work action’ and the remaining 80,000 were deported and exterminated.” (From the book by Dr. Pawel Wiederman, “Plowa Bestia”, “The Blonde Beast”, Munich, 1948). It becomes evident in the final analysis that the annihilation in Upper East Silesia was more complete and efficient than in other places, thanks to Merin and Moldetsky.

source:
Holocaust Victims Accuse

Published in 1977 by
Bnei Yeshivos
161 East Houston St., Suite 10
New York, NY 10013

 

[John99]

what does that paragraph have to do with anything. tbh, i have no interest in links or cut and pastes because the internet is a vast ocean and we can all go find whatever we want that supports whatever viewpoint we have.

there are exceptions to all rules. is that the point here.

 

[S.A.M.]

No the point [which is now lost] is that excluding non-Jewish victims of the Nazis from Holocaust museums based on the ham handed assertion that some of them collaborated with the Germans makes little sense when the Jewish ghetto police were the worst of the lot.

 

[John99]

No the point [which is now lost] is that excluding non-Jewish victims of the Nazis from Holocaust museums based on the ham handed assertion that some of them collaborated with the Germans makes little sense when the Jewish ghetto police were the worst of the lot.

well anyone can have a museum, they just have to build it.

personally, and like i have said here before, i blame one person and of course that was Hitler. it is hard to believe but i am sure i am correct.

 

[S.A.M.]

well anyone can have a museum, they just have to build it.

personally, and like i have said here before, i blame one person and of course that was Hitler. it is hard to believe but i am sure i am correct.

Well I blame all the people who sat back and let it happen, just as they allowed the genocides before and after Hitler.. Hitler was only one man. Without the complicity of the world at large he wouldn't have been able to do squat.

 

[John99]

Well I blame all the people who sat back and let it happen, just as they allowed the genocides before and after Hitler.. Hitler was only one man. Without the complicity of the world at large he wouldn't have been able to do squat.

the whole world was certainly not complicit. hitler was like a virus but there are many sociological reasons for how it happened. i think that under different circumstances he would just be an ordinary serial killer.

 

[iceaura]

The group of people most involved in rounding up, persecuting and killing Jews for Nazis was Jews.

Bullshit.

No the point [which is now lost] is that excluding non-Jewish victims of the Nazis from Holocaust museums based on the ham handed assertion that some of them collaborated with the Germans makes little sense when the Jewish ghetto police were the worst of the lot.

It makes perfect sense if the situation is honestly looked at. The Gypsies and Slavs persecuted Jews of their own free will, as a group, and had for generations. It was not just the cowardly and the sick among them, the corrupted collaborators.

The Jews were not just another group the Nazis attempted to exterminate. They were a special case, dramatically and obviously so. There is nothing strange about a museum focused on that special case.

Well I blame all the people who sat back and let it happen, just as they allowed the genocides before and after Hitler

A great deal of the world was engaged in full scale war against Hitler, in a desperate effort to defeat his efforts and destroy his government, during the Holocaust. That is not the same as sitting back and doing nothing.

Although it occurs to me to wonder why sitting back and doing nothing is so blameworthy a response to the cultural mores of Germany before the Holocaust. Were the Germans then not worthy of self-determination and the freedom to establish their own mores, the same right of immunity from criticism and judgment that others claim? Wouldn't actions taken to discourage German expressions of their natural, thousand year old customs of oppressing Jews fall under the disparaging label of cultural imperialism?

 

[S.A.M.]

Bullshit.

Not according to victims of the Holocaust

It makes perfect sense if the situation is honestly looked at. The Gypsies and Slavs persecuted Jews of their own free will, as a group, and had for generations. It was not just the cowardly and the sick among them, the corrupted collaborators.

??? so that makes the Slav and Gypsy victims of the Nazis all 5 or 6 million of them irrelevant as victims of the holocaust?

The Jews were not just another group the Nazis attempted to exterminate. They were a special case, dramatically and obviously so. There is nothing strange about a museum focused on that special case.

I obviously disagree, I think presenting a subset of 66 million victims as somehow unique in a world where genocide is a pretty regular occurence, unsavoury.

A great deal of the world was engaged in full scale war against Hitler, in a desperate effort to defeat his efforts and destroy his government, during the Holocaust. That is not the same as sitting back and doing nothing.

None of which had anything to do with saving any victims.

Although it occurs to me to wonder why sitting back and doing nothing is so blameworthy a response to the cultural mores of Germany before the Holocaust. Were the Germans then not worthy of self-determination and the freedom to establish their own mores, the same right of immunity from criticism and judgment that others claim? Wouldn't actions taken to discourage German expressions of their natural, thousand year old customs of oppressing Jews fall under the disparaging label of cultural imperialism?

Why would you assume I was referring to the Germans? I'm quite agreeable to all the genocides being dismissed out of hand its more honest that pretending that any of them matter.

 

[Musichascolors]

Not according to victims of the Holocaust

Excuse me??

You should back up what you say with a link that isn't from a Neo-Nazi site before continuing your assault against truth.