Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Why do you associate the word 'Übermensch' with militancy and violence?
I meant the Nietzschean concept
History of the Holocaust
- Thread starter S.A.M.
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Why do you associate the word 'Übermensch' with militancy and violence?
I meant the Nietzschean concept
Collateral damage, as it's called, is by definition accidental. Are you comparing this with the intentional extermination of one or another ethnic group?
Intent, clearly: or, from the perspective of the outsider, investigation. So far, we seem to be stalled on that part. But the innuendos are blossoming this time of year.
What does 'partition' mean either side of the dividing lingo?
Yeah, I keep remembering Dresden, Hiroshima, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.
To me its merely a difference in language, the intent appears to be the same: kill as many of the other as possible. Since I do not believe in race, I consider all excuses of ethnicity or lack thereof as justifications for what is the norm in these kinds of military adventures: killing innocent people.
Indeed. It is rare to find those with such faith in the justification given by perpetrators.
Are these genocides?
Regrettably, many other people do believe in race, or in little gods.
?? Sort of a non sequitur. Gesundheit.
gee, a muslim gets "critical" about the holocaust. what a coincidence.
There is nothing critical about asking questions.
dont you think its interesting that different parts of the population tend to focus on criticizing the same stuff as their peers? in the muslim world jew-bashing (i hate the word antisemitism) is popular. little people outside of these groups (jews and muslims and other jew-bashers) really care anymore. so when a muslim puts up these questions i have to ask myself, is it because of a dislike of jews, but outright denying the holocaust would mostly be met with ridicule on these forums, so this'll have to do to satisfy her anti-jewish feelings.
not that i really care, but im sure that the holocaust has been researched to shreds. even if the whole thing would be proven to be a hoax, it would still change very little in the world today, except maybe satisfy the feelings of some jew-haters.
Most likely just societal conditioning and lack of critical thinking.
That Jew bashing is the norm amongst Muslim communities is a fallacy. As is the fallacy that Jews as a group are Muslim bashers. However, most every group in society will display racist and/or elitist behavior at various times, and for various reasons.
If you are referring to the Thread starter, I don`t agree with an anti Jewish sentiment, rather a justice based sentiment. Given certain historical precedents, and given that the Holocaust is way lesser known in countries not directly involved in WW2, there is no reason why certain accepted facts cannot be questioned. I don`t think anyone is denying the event or the absolute tragedy of the Holocaust. Given that the Holocaust was a prime motivator for the establishment of the State of Israel, and the accompanying disenfranchisement, displacement and suffering of hundred of thousands of Palestinians, with nary a murmur of disapproval, should raise questions.
Yes, there is a mountain of research, meticulously documented, the evidence is unequivocal. Yet the very lesson of the Holocaust, that such a racist tragedy never happen to a people again, has been utterly disregarded.
After about 150 posts, it looks like the OP still hasn't really been addressed. Briefly I'd like to do so, without giving specific references. SAM can follow up.
I'm not sure. The figure usually given for the Jewish persecution is about 6 million people. Then you need to add groups such as gypsies, homosexuals, disabled people and others. There are approximate figures available.
Jews were originally required to register for identity cards under the Nazi regime. This led to all Jews being required to wear the star of David prominently on their clothing. People who tried to hide were often dobbed in by their neighbours in the xenophobic society.
Personal diaries. Official government records. Letters and other correspondence. The Nazis, in particular, were sticklers for record-keeping. Records were often kept in triplicate at different locations.
Individuals kept their own personal diaries and letters. Government offices kept government records. Military records were kept by the military.
By the same processes that are used to investigate the authenticity of all historical records. There is a large literature available on this topic. For example, if two or more independent records attest to the same event, chances are that the event occurred. That's just one example.
Statements by Nazi leaders, including all of the people with the highest offices, such as Hitler, Himmler, Goering, etc. There are plenty of recordings and written records of speeches given by Nazis. Add to that innumerable letters, sets of written orders and administrative documents.
One very obvious way to make the estimate is simply to look at records of who lived where in 1933, say, and then look at the populations of the same places in 1945. The missing people must have either left or died or been killed. In short, 6 million people are difficult to hide.
Practically all of them, as far as I am aware.
Personal diaries. Official government records. Letters and other correspondence. The Nazis, in particular, were sticklers for record-keeping. Records were often kept in triplicate at different locations. There was also a lot of physical evidence, such as the actual concentration camps and death camps liberated by allied forces at the end of the war.
I don't know about that.
I'm not sure. The figure usually given for the Jewish persecution is about 6 million people. Then you need to add groups such as gypsies, homosexuals, disabled people and others. There are approximate figures available.
Jews were originally required to register for identity cards under the Nazi regime. This led to all Jews being required to wear the star of David prominently on their clothing. People who tried to hide were often dobbed in by their neighbours in the xenophobic society.
Personal diaries. Official government records. Letters and other correspondence. The Nazis, in particular, were sticklers for record-keeping. Records were often kept in triplicate at different locations.
Individuals kept their own personal diaries and letters. Government offices kept government records. Military records were kept by the military.
By the same processes that are used to investigate the authenticity of all historical records. There is a large literature available on this topic. For example, if two or more independent records attest to the same event, chances are that the event occurred. That's just one example.
Statements by Nazi leaders, including all of the people with the highest offices, such as Hitler, Himmler, Goering, etc. There are plenty of recordings and written records of speeches given by Nazis. Add to that innumerable letters, sets of written orders and administrative documents.
One very obvious way to make the estimate is simply to look at records of who lived where in 1933, say, and then look at the populations of the same places in 1945. The missing people must have either left or died or been killed. In short, 6 million people are difficult to hide.
Practically all of them, as far as I am aware.
Personal diaries. Official government records. Letters and other correspondence. The Nazis, in particular, were sticklers for record-keeping. Records were often kept in triplicate at different locations. There was also a lot of physical evidence, such as the actual concentration camps and death camps liberated by allied forces at the end of the war.
I don't know about that.
Some guy, SAM for one thing is not Jew bashing, second off, are you qualified in any sort of way to define what Jew bashing is or isnt? Because Cheski and I and some other people are, but I dont rememebr your name being on the list.
The swiss bank got into massive amount of trouble because pre war, the Jewish people and other minorities placed lots of valuables in their "safe" keeping, and in return for said trust, they gave it to the nazis, and to this day there are many trials going on from either the descendants or the people whom were in the holocaust to be repayed.
But in reality, how could you repay such a terrible thing, sure you could repay the hundred thousand that survived but hwat of the 6 million? Well they said, "hey they want their country Israel back, it's the least we can do" And hence, the whole debate of Israel's soverignty comes into question.
Now the reason why you cant really repay gypsies and homosexuals and all the other minority groups is that practically none of them had such a universal and clear cut desire for some kind of repayment. And even if they gave them money or something, how do you repay the ones that died?
And the fact is also that the Jews originated from Israel, so it did make sense to the nations in power to send them back, as for the other minorities, you really could not tell where they came from.
History is written by people and therefore they put whatever they want . I see no reason why someone should be jailed just because he does not agree with the government version of events . For instance now there are so many conflicting numbers about the deaths of civilians in Iraq and in Afghanistan . Those who believe the wars are unfair and unjustified bring large numbers and those who support the wars bring small numbers and tons of excuses .
Everything made by man is open to fraud and manipulation . Questioning things shout not be criminal in any given society .
Personally [and this is my wish], I wish the Jews had done at least as much to get compensation for the other, non-Jewish victims of the Nazis as they did for the Jews, since they were better organised as a community. Including them in the holocaust museums would have been nice too.
You brought it up. Most people are ready to simply accept the normal count, well attested in documents and research, and reason from there.SAM said:
Just recently some researchers put a few records together and realized - it had been hidden, in various ways - that during WWII there were small extermination camps built all over Germany and some of the conquered countries, for penning up and eventually killing local Jews. About 20,000 of them. And people cared about that, because of what it implied about the execution of the Holocaust and the complicity of the ordinary German people in that effort.
Bullshit.SAM said:
People who would like to prevent future mass murders of various kinds often think that an accurate description of the engendering circumstances of past mass murders - especially the modern, industrialized ones with unique features and ties to present circumstances - would be a good thing to have and examine. The Holocaust was an unusual one - it was not attributable to features not found in modern Western industrial states, and not dismissable on such grounds. It was overtly and personally violent, not an arrangement of circumstance by a distant evil tyranny. And it was very severe and dramatic.SAM said:
Exactly.SAM said:
The people planning and doing the bombing.SAM said:
You are quite obviously wrong about that. The intent in none of those atrocities was to kill as many of the other as possible. The survivors of Hiroshima were not hunted down, rounded up, and murdered, for example. And the difference - in tactics, execution, planning, results, etc - is readily apparent to any honest observer.SAM said:
That would have been admirable of them, and beneficial to us all, true. But you might consider that in general all those other groups the Nazis killed had turned against the Jews themselves, and contributed to the Holocaust of the Jews, and cooperated with the Nazi efforts. So it's asking a lot, actually, to expect the Jews to welcome them as equal and fellow victims.SAM said:
That's a copout. If it's a known, predictable, and accepted consequence of the adopted tactics, calling it "accidental" because it is not the overall goal is a misuse of the word.geoff said:
You sure about that? It seems to be treated as normal by every Muslim on this forum, every Muslim in the general public discourse, and every Muslim I've ever met when the subject came up.strawdog said:
Reminds me of a case in South Africa a friend of mine told me. A Jewish kid who was near poor lost her leg in an accident, and the Jewish community of 72,000 quickly raised funds to buy her the finest prosthetic money could buy. A black kid soon after had a near identical accident. The newspapers, the community went nuts. Anti-semitic crimes spiked and there was violence against the Jews of South Africa. Why? Because they had raised money for the Jewish kid and not the South African kid, and that's racist right? Well...maybe? The donors to the Jewish kid were all Jewish...and their pool was 72,000 people. The potential pool for the South African kid...44 million people. Why didn't they raise the funds themselves?
What would you think of a World War II museum that skipped the holocaust because the Jews could make their own memorial to it? I understand ethnocentrism, I come from a country where its the norm to look out for your community, but its this kind of thinking that isolates Jews in most communities.
I'd think it was a lot like the other 200 attempted Jewish genocides.
Or it similar to numerous other genocides that didn't get memorials.
Then you can understand my feeling when I visit a holocaust museum and find that it omits half the victims of the Nazis or barely mentions them.
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