Hindu Deities & their meanings

[lightgigantic]

It gives the assurance and benefits of worshipping vishnu - like other diety worship, not a declaration of the superiority of worship of vishnu over the worship of other deities.

on the contrary worship of other deities doe s not confer liberation (the only exception is shiva, since being a devotee of vishnu he is capable of delivering liberation (siva fulfills the criteria of SB2.3.11, Lord Siva being a pure devotee of the Lord - not all demigods are pure devotees of visnu)

SB 2.3.2-7: One who desires to be absorbed in the impersonal brahmajyoti effulgence should worship the master of the Vedas [Lord Brahmā or Bṛhaspati, the learned priest], one who desires powerful sex should worship the heavenly King, Indra, and one who desires good progeny should worship the great progenitors called the Prajāpatis. One who desires good fortune should worship Durgādevī, the superintendent of the material world. One desiring to be very powerful should worship fire, and one who aspires only after money should worship the Vasus. One should worship the Rudra incarnations of Lord Śiva if he wants to be a great hero. One who wants a large stock of grains should worship Aditi. One who desires to attain the heavenly planets should worship the sons of Aditi. One who desires a worldly kingdom should worship Viśvadeva, and one who wants to be popular with the general mass of population should worship the Sādhya demigod. One who desires a long span of life should worship the demigods known as the Aśvinī-kumāras, and a person desiring a strongly built body should worship the earth. One who desires stability in his post should worship the horizon and the earth combined. One who desires to be beautiful should worship the beautiful residents of the Gandharva planet, and one who desires a good wife should worship the Apsarās and the Urvaśī society girls of the heavenly kingdom. One who desires domination over others should worship Lord Brahmā, the head of the universe. One who desires tangible fame should worship the Personality of Godhead, and one who desires a good bank balance should worship the demigod Varuṇa. If one desires to be a greatly learned man he should worship Lord Śiva, and if one desires a good marital relation he should worship the chaste goddess Umā, the wife of Lord Śiva.

SB 2.3.8: One should worship Lord Viṣṇu or His devotee for spiritual advancement in knowledge, and for protection of heredity and advancement of a dynasty one should worship the various demigods.

SB 2.3.9: One who desires domination over a kingdom or an empire should worship the Manus. One who desires victory over an enemy should worship the demons, and one who desires sense gratification should worship the moon. But one who desires nothing of material enjoyment should worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

SB 2.3.10: A person who has broader intelligence, whether he be full of all material desire, without any material desire, or desiring liberation, must by all means worship the supreme whole, the Personality of Godhead.

SB 2.3.11: All the different kinds of worshipers of multidemigods can attain the highest perfectional benediction, which is spontaneous attraction unflinchingly fixed upon the Supreme Personality of Godhead, only by the association of the pure devotee of the Lord.

You lifted them up from some others' quote. Not to be found in Skanda/Linga puranas.

I see you are more intelligent than the skanda purana

It is exhorts the bigots to worship vishnu too, not to have enimity with vishnu. On the other hand your conclusion shows you a bigot.

Krsna doesn't forbid the worship of other demigods - he indicates that if you do you attain a destination within the material creation thats all - gold is available in the market but if you insist on being cheap about it you will only end up with fool's gold - the verse indicates that those who are attracted to the plethora of rules and regs for punya in the vedas get fools gold - also confirmed in BG

BG 2.42-43: Men of small knowledge are very much attached to the flowery words of the Vedas, which recommend various fruitive activities for elevation to heavenly planets, resultant good birth, power, and so forth. Being desirous of sense gratification and opulent life, they say that there is nothing more than this.
(svarga-parāḥ — aiming to achieve heavenly planets

Yes it is 81000, waiting to catch typo errors?! better be careful with such errors.

if you been reading the 18 000 verse version of the skanda purana it indicates why you are having trouble locating these verses
* Linga Purana = 10 000 vers.
* Siva Purana = 24 000 vers.
* Skanda Purana = 81 000 vers.
* Agni Purana = 15 400 vers.

# Shiva Purana - 24,000 verses.
# Skanda Purana - 81,000 verses.
# Agni Purana - 15,400 verses.
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1256473

#
Siva Purana - 24,000 verses.
#
Skanda Purana - 81,000 verses.
#
Agni Purana - 15,400 verses.
http://www.punditravi.com/purana.htm

etc etc

Does the unique position indicate superiority over Shiva, Shakti and in a way Narayana etc as you wish ?

It has nothing to do with how I wish - it has everything to do with the vedic version. Just like it is not my wish that there are 81 000 verses inthe skanda purana, its simply a fact

TRANSLATION

Just as milk is transformed into curd by the action of acids, but yet the effect curd is neither same as, nor different from, its cause, viz., milk, so I adore the primeval Lord Govinda of whom the state of Śambhu is a transformation for the performance of the work of destruction.

PURPORT

(The real nature of Śambhu, the presiding deity of Maheśa-dhāma, is described.) Śambhu is not a second Godhead other than Kṛṣṇa. Those, who entertain such discriminating sentiment, commit a great offense against the Supreme Lord. The supremacy of Śambhu is subservient to that of Govinda; hence they are not really different from each other. The nondistinction is established by the fact that just as milk treated with acid turns into curd so Godhead becomes a subservient when He Himself attains a distinct personality by the addition of a particular element of adulteration. This personality has no independent initiative.
more here

In other words just as yoghurt is a slight transformation of milk, siva is a slight transformation of vishnu - the distinction is that milk is superior to yoghurt since yoghurt is contingent on milk (you can make yoghurt from milk but you cannot make milk from yoghurt) - in the same way siva is submissive to vishnu

You have not established your claim that Vishnu worship is superior and other deities are demigods. All you have done is picking up convenient verses from other puranas than SB disgarding unconvenient verses in those puranas.

There are eighteen Purana that are divided into three groups along with three predominating Deities.
Guna Nature Action of the Deity Deity
Satwa Goodness Preservation of Goodness Vishnu
Rajas Passion Overcoming Passion Brahma
Tamas Ignorance Destruction of Ignorance or Beginning of Knowledge Siva

They are divided in this way to gradually raise the conditioned soul from ignorance to pure goodness. The three divisions of the Purana are compiled in this way to appeal to those people in these respective modes and to thus elevate them to the perfection of life.

http://www.punditravi.com/purana.htm

So many other things are also there in Skanda purana, your selective quotes (orginal & picked up) in an attempt to show the superiority of vishnu worship over other so called 'demigods' worship is hardly an acceptance of other puranas as authoritative.

Since the skanda purana is meant to enable persons within the grip of a certain mode of nature to practice religious principles, its understandable why.
There is an ideal presented as the conclusion of vedic knowledge (worship of visnu) but vedic culture is so generous as to afford people a bit of lee way on account of their conditioning

BG 7.21: I am in everyone's heart as the Supersoul. As soon as one desires to worship some demigod, I make his faith steady so that he can devote himself to that particular deity.

BG 7.22: Endowed with such a faith, he endeavors to worship a particular demigod and obtains his desires. But in actuality these benefits are bestowed by Me alone.

BG 7.23: Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet.

the result of such conditioning is that one does not attain the eternal abode

Did it not occur to you that Krishna demands absolute faith on him as a sole saviour for the sake of followers' dedication & focus ?!

so in other words you are so intelligent, more intelligent than vyasadeva, as to discern when krsna is telling lies in the scriptures

They are your opinions, you have the right to have personal opinions based on how you perceive what vedas tell. They are not absolute conclusions by vedas. If vedas conclude as you wish, only Vaishanism would have survived over centuries along with vedas, may be not. Vedas & upnishads are mostly secular in the sense that view equally all the manifestations (Vishnu, Shiva, Shakti etc) of Brahman, imho.

BG 7.3: Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.

BG 18.55: One can understand Me as I am, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of Me by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God.

I never said vaishnavism was the most popular - i did say it is the most perfect application of vedic knowledge - and krsna acknowledges that it is the most exclusive and that he only way to know himis through the process of bhakti (bhakti towards him of course - not some other demigod - as evidenced my the numerous "to me" verses)

 

[everneo]

on the contrary worship of other deities doe s not confer liberation (the only exception is shiva, since being a devotee of vishnu he is capable of delivering liberation (siva fulfills the criteria of SB2.3.11, Lord Siva being a pure devotee of the Lord - not all demigods are pure devotees of visnu)

The demi-gods(?) seem to be superior than your portrayal of them :


"Devi Bhagavaam, I book chap.4, Vishnu tells Brahma :

51. I am always subservient to that Maha S’akti; (under Her command) I am engaged in Tapasyâ for a long time; (By Her command) some time I enjoy with Lakshmî; some time I fight battles, terrible to all the Lokas, with the Dânavas, involving great bodily troubles. O Know of Dharma! It was before Your presence that I fought hand to hand fight for five thousand years before Your sight on that one great ocean
in long-past days with the two demons Madhu and Kaitabha, sprung from the wax of my ear, maddened with pride; and by the grace of the Devî, successfully killed the two Dânavas."


"Shiva Purana (I section I chapter)

Brahma

At the beginning of creation, there was nothing in the universe. The universe was not there either. It was only the brahman (divine essence) which was everywhere. The brahman was neither hot nor cold, neither thick or thin. It had no beginning and no end. There was water everywhere.

Lord Vishnu manifested himself in his great form and slept on the water. While Vishnu was sleeping, a lotus flower (padma) sprouted from his navel. It had many petals and its stem shone like a thousand suns. From the cells of the lotus Brahma was born. He began to wonder, There seems to be nothing around except for this lotus. Who am I? Where did I come from? What am I supposed to do? Whose son am I ? Who made me?

Brahma thought he might find the answers to these questions if he explored the lotus a bit. Perhaps he ought to try and find the centre of the lotus. Brahma descended down the stem of the lotus and wandered around for a hundred years. But he could not find the flower’s centre. He then decided that he might as well go back to the cell from where he had been born. But despite wandering around the stem for another hundred years, Brahma could not find the cell. By then he was so tired that he gave up and rested.
Suddenly he heard the words, Brahma, perform tapasya (meditation).
Brahma meditated for twelve years. When the twelve years were over, the four-armed Vishnu appeared before Brahma. In the four hands Vishnu held a shankha (conch shell), a chakra (a bladed discus), a gada (mace) and a padma. Brahma didn’t know who this person was and he asked, Who are you?

Vishnu didn’t directly answer the question. Instead, he replied, Son, the great Lord Vishnu has created you.

Who are you to call me a son? demanded Brahma.

Can’t you recognize me? came the reply. I am Vishnu. It is from my body that you have been created.

But Brahma was not convinced. He began to fight with Vishnu.

The Linga

While they were thus engaged in fighting, a shining linga (Shiva’s image) arrived on the scene. It seemed to have no beginning or end.
Vishnu said, Brahma, let us stop fighting. There is a third being here now. What on earth is this linga? And where did it come from? Let us try and find out what this is. You adopt the form of a swan (hamsa) and go up. I shall adopt the form of boar (varaha) and go down. Let us try and find the extremities of this linga.

Brahma agreed. He became a whilte swan and flew up. Vishnu became a white boar and went down. They looked for four thousand years, but could not find the end of the linga. So they returned to where they had started off from and began to pray. They prayed for a hundred years. After the hundred years were over, the sound of om was heard and a being with five faces and ten arms appeared before them. This was Mahadeva or Shiva.

Vishnu said, It is good that Brahma and I have been fighting. It is because of our fight that you arrived.

Shiva replied, We are all three parts of the same entity and have been divided into three. Brahma is the creator. Vishnu is the preserver and I am the destroyer. There is another being named Rudra who will be born form my body, but Rudra and I are really one and the same. Let Brahma create now.

Shiva disappeared and Brahma and Vishnu gave up their forms of a swan and a boar."

These samples are moderate when comparing to other parts of these puranas where the "demigods" outsize Vishnu in their glory often.

I see you are more intelligent than the skanda purana

What are you talking?

Krsna doesn't forbid the worship of other demigods - he indicates that if you do you attain a destination within the material creation thats all - gold is available in the market but if you insist on being cheap about it you will only end up with fool's gold - the verse indicates that those who are attracted to the plethora of rules and regs for punya in the vedas get fools gold - also confirmed in BG

BG 2.42-43: Men of small knowledge are very much attached to the flowery words of the Vedas, which recommend various fruitive activities for elevation to heavenly planets, resultant good birth, power, and so forth. Being desirous of sense gratification and opulent life, they say that there is nothing more than this.
(svarga-parāḥ — aiming to achieve heavenly planets

May be Krishna will be able to clarify whom you are referring to as demigods.

Yes it is 81000, waiting to catch typo errors?! better be careful with such errors.

if you been reading the 18 000 verse version of the skanda purana it indicates why you are having trouble locating these verses
* Linga Purana = 10 000 vers.
* Siva Purana = 24 000 vers.
* Skanda Purana = 81 000 vers.
* Agni Purana = 15 400 vers.

# Shiva Purana - 24,000 verses.
# Skanda Purana - 81,000 verses.
# Agni Purana - 15,400 verses.
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1256473

#
Siva Purana - 24,000 verses.
#
Skanda Purana - 81,000 verses.
#
Agni Purana - 15,400 verses.
http://www.punditravi.com/purana.htm

etc etc

Yes it is 81000. Did i refute ? Now you would realize the point - it is very difficult to locate the verses (without number) you quoted as being present in Skanda Purana.

]It has nothing to do with how I wish - it has everything to do with the vedic version. Just like it is not my wish that there are 81 000 verses inthe skanda purana, its simply a fact

The fact that Skanda purana has 81000 verses has nothing to do with your assertion.


Rest of your post centres around gunas.

I guess your point is :

Sattvic souls inclined towards Vishnu, Rajasic ones worship Brahma to get boons, Thomasic ones worship Shiva to destroy ignorance and start gaining knowledge.

did i get it properly ??

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

What is the relationship between Vishnu and Manu? Dont they mean fish-nu and ma(n)-nu respectively?

 

[Ayodhya]

No, Vishnu means "All-Pervading".
You cannot compare English and Sanskrit and expect any coincidental similarities to be true.

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

What other "similarities" are you aware of, and what about Ma(n)-nu?

Was not Manu the hero of the Deluge story, and F..., oops, Vishnu was the fish who guided Manu's ship? Was Manu a real person to the Hindus, and was Vishnu?

 

[Ayodhya]

He may have been the hero of the Deluge story, but Vishnu still means "All-Pervading".

Vishnu took the form of a fish and during that time was called Matsya, not Fish-nu.

 

[lightgigantic]

The demi-gods(?) seem to be superior than your portrayal of them :


.......

These samples are moderate when comparing to other parts of these puranas where the "demigods" outsize Vishnu in their glory often.

He is worshiped as the Supreme Lord by the Saiva (Saivite) groups and described as such in the tamasic Puranas - Matsya Purana, Kurma Purana, Linga Purana, Siva Purana, Skanda Purana, and Agni Purana. However, he is always depicted in the constant meditation on the Supreme Lord, Visnu. Lord Visnu, at the same time worships him as His foremost devotee: "Conquered by the intimate love of His devotee, Lord Krsna personally worships Siva just to glorify him." (Brhad-bhagavatamrta 1.2.87) He is worshiped by Lord in His Rama-lila. Lord likes to worship His exalted devotees (SB 4.24.30 p.) and Siva in turn worships Him. (SB 9.10.12)

sri rama rama rameti rame rame manorame
sahasra nama tat tulyam rama nama varanane

Lord Siva tells to his consort Devi Parvati: "O Delight of my heart, o beautiful-faced lady! I myself constantly enjoy the supreme bliss chanting the divine Name of my beloved as 'Sri Rama, Sri Rama' which is equal to reciting one thousand Names of Lord Visnu, Sriman Narayana. (Visnu Sahasra Nama)

svapne jagarane sasvath krsna dhyana ratah sivah
yatha krsnas tatha sambhur na bhedo madhavesayoh

"Sleeping or awake, Siva is constantly absorbed in meditation on Krsna. As is Krsna, so is Sambhu; there is no difference between Madhava and Isa." (Brahma Vaivarta Purana, Prakriti Khanda 2.56.61)

He is the greatest of Vaisnavas (SB 2.10.13, 5.17.22-23, Brahma-samhita 5.9-10).

http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/siva.htm

its natural that these puranas would have more sizeable glorifications of their respective demigods more so than vishnu, since these puranas exist primarily to enable persons to adopt some form of religiousity within the lower modes of nature – like for instance it is primarily seen that a person takes to the worship of siva or durga for material benedictions (a benediction on their material body - money wealth, power, acquisition etc - , their body being a product of the three modes of nature) – thus you find two sorts of personalities that worship siva – those who get cheated by asking for a material benediction (like say ravana, vrkasura etc) and those who get devotional service to visnu by asking for bhakti

You can find examples in the puranas that declare that Vishnu, vishnu’s devotee and the bhagavatam are most worshipful (amongst other claims of course) but you cannot find claims in the SB about the superior nature of demigod worship – commentators have explained that all the puranas worship the SB in a mood of awe and reverence like a king while the SB can remain indifferent to them by dint of its superior nature

evidenced by

(here is an interesting quote regarding the SB) Skanda Purana, Prabhasa Khanda (Sk.P.2/39-42):

"That is to be known as the Bhagavata which, basing itself on the Gayatri, describes dharma in all its fullness, and which narrates the slaying of the asura Vrtra. And that is known in the world as the Bhagavata, which
has its origin in tales concerning the gods and men who live in the sarasvata kalpa. Whosoever will make a copy of this Bhagavata and offer it away, mounted on a throne of gold on the full moon day of Bhadra month, will attain the supreme goal. This purana is said to contain eighteen thousand
(verses)."
(And these same line are found in the Agni Purana as well.)

another one about the SB

Skanda Purana:
(Sk.P., Visnu Khanda 16/40,42,44,331)

"If the Bhagavata is not kept in one's house in the Kali Yuga, of what avail are collections of other scriptures by the hundreds and thousands? How can he be considered a Vaisnava who, in the Kali Yuga, does not keep the Bhagavata in his house? Even if he is a brahmana, he is lower than an
outcaste. O Narada, O Sage, wherever the Bhagavata is found in the Kali Yuga, there Hari goes together with all the demigods. O Muni, that pious soul who daily recites a verse from the Bhagavata reaps the fruits of the eighteen Puranas."

May be Krishna will be able to clarify whom you are referring to as demigods.

http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/s/svarga

Rest of your post centres around gunas.

I guess your point is :

Sattvic souls inclined towards Vishnu, Rajasic ones worship Brahma to get boons, Thomasic ones worship Shiva to destroy ignorance and start gaining knowledge.

did i get it properly ??

tamasic worshippers are characterized by the desire to destroy others
rajasic worshippers are characterized by the desire to acquire material things
sattvic worshippers are characterized by their desire to act according to duty
and suddha sattva worshippers are characterized by their desire to worship visnu or visnu’s devotee exclusively outside of gain and loss (since such personalities, visnu and visnu’s devotee, are beyond the modes of nature – of course if someone worships visnu with the desire for material gain or for the sake of destroying others are operating under the influence of a mode of nature)
BG 18.54
One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman and becomes fully joyful. He never laments or desires to have anything. He is equally disposed toward every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me.

 

[everneo]

http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/siva.htm

Hare Krishna !!!

its natural that these puranas would have more sizeable glorifications of their respective demigods more so than vishnu, since these puranas exist primarily to enable persons to adopt some form of religiousity within the lower modes of nature – like for instance it is primarily seen that a person takes to the worship of siva or durga for material benedictions (a benediction on their material body - money wealth, power, acquisition etc - , their body being a product of the three modes of nature) – thus you find two sorts of personalities that worship siva – those who get cheated by asking for a material benediction (like say ravana, vrkasura etc) and those who get devotional service to visnu by asking for bhakti

So the status among gods is decided by the type of devotees each one has ?!!

You can find examples in the puranas that declare that Vishnu, vishnu’s devotee and the bhagavatam are most worshipful (amongst other claims of course) but you cannot find claims in the SB about the superior nature of demigod worship – commentators have explained that all the puranas worship the SB in a mood of awe and reverence like a king while the SB can remain indifferent to them by dint of its superior nature

evidenced by

Other puranas declare that vishnu is worshipful.

but 'most' worshipful than their respective deities ??! No.

tamasic worshippers are characterized by the desire to destroy others

So vyasa's 6 tamasic puranas are dedicated to the deities who cater to this noble purpose ?!

..suddha sattva worshippers are characterized by their desire to worship visnu or visnu’s devotee exclusively outside of gain and loss

suddha sattva worshippers are there in all religions.

 

[lightgigantic]

So the status among gods is decided by the type of devotees each one has ?!!

to a degree yes - you don't find examples of persons worshipping demigods without tinges of karma and jnana - you do find such examples in the scriptures however

Other puranas declare that vishnu is worshipful.

but 'most' worshipful than their respective deities ??! No.

you cetainly don't find glorification of worship of other entities outside of visnu inthe BG and you don't find glorifications of other puranas in the SB

So vyasa's 6 tamasic puranas are dedicated to the deities who cater to this noble purpose ?!

introducing religiousity to people addicted to practices in tamo guna, yes

suddha sattva worshippers are there in all religions.

but not amongst demigod worshippers, unless you are working with a corrupted defintion of the word (at the very least the word won't appear in conjunction with worship of any other entity outside of Visnu in vedic literature)

 

[everneo]

So the status among gods is decided by the type of devotees each one has ?!!

to a degree yes - you don't find examples of persons worshipping demigods without tinges of karma and jnana - you do find such examples in the scriptures however

Your reply is vague and makes no sense to me.

Other puranas declare that vishnu is worshipful.

but 'most' worshipful than their respective deities ??! No.

you cetainly don't find glorification of worship of other entities outside of visnu inthe BG and you don't find glorifications of other puranas in the SB

Whenever your tall claims are countered you make another claim & jump back to SB & BG.

So vyasa's 6 tamasic puranas are dedicated to the deities who cater to this noble purpose ?!

introducing religiousity to people addicted to practices in tamo guna, yes

Do you mean vyasa was dishonest in not insisting only on the 'supreme' worship of 'most' worshipful vishnu to all hindus ? Or is it your arrogance towards the worshippers of other deities ?

suddha sattva worshippers are there in all religions

but not amongst demigod worshippers, unless you are working with a corrupted defintion of the word (at the very least the word won't appear in conjunction with worship of any other entity outside of Visnu in vedic literature)

Is this 'rule' applicable to Vishnu & his avatars who worshipped the 'demigods' Shiva, Shakti etc. ?

 

[lightgigantic]

Your reply is vague and makes no sense to me.

in regards to the worship of demigods, you don't find prayers that deride the concept of liberation and fruitive such as this

MM 4: O Lord Hari, it is not to be saved from the dualities of material existence or the grim tribulations of the Kumbhīpāka hell that I pray to Your lotus feet. Nor is my purpose to enjoy the soft-skinned beautiful women who reside in the gardens of heaven. I pray to Your lotus feet only so that I may remember You alone in the core of my heart, birth after birth.

MM 6: O Lord, killer of the demon Naraka! Let me reside either in the realm of the demigods, in the world of human beings, or in hell, as You please. I pray only that at the point of death I may remember Your two lotus feet, whose beauty defies that of the lotus growing in the Śarat season.

“O Lord Dämodara, although You are able to give all kinds of benedictions, I do not pray to You for liberation, nor the supreme goal of eternal life in Vaikuntha, nor for any other boon. My only desire, O Lord, is that Your form as Bala Gopal in Vrndävana may constantly remain in my heart. I have no use for any other boon besides this.”

Whenever your tall claims are countered you make another claim & jump back to SB & BG.

the reason why is illustrated in many places in the vedas, including the skanda purana

(Sk.P., Visnu Khanda 16/40,42,44,331)

"If the Bhagavata is not kept in one's house in the Kali Yuga, of what avail are collections of other scriptures by the hundreds and thousands? How can he be considered a Vaisnava who, in the Kali Yuga, does not keep the Bhagavata in his house? Even if he is a brahmana, he is lower than an
outcaste. O Narada, O Sage, wherever the Bhagavata is found in the Kali Yuga, there Hari goes together with all the demigods. O Muni, that pious soul who daily recites a verse from the Bhagavata reaps the fruits of the eighteen Puranas."

one verse of the bhagavtam is equal to the merit offerred by the 18 puranas - what does the mathmatics of that indicate?

If you could pull out a similar verse regarding the skanda purana in the SB, or even the skanda purana itself, perhaps your claim that I am interpreting the vedas according to my whim would have some basis.

Do you mean vyasa was dishonest in not insisting only on the 'supreme' worship of 'most' worshipful vishnu to all hindus ? Or is it your arrogance towards the worshippers of other deities ?

the whole issue about abiding by superior religious principles in sattva is not possible for those in tamas (or rajas).
Like for instance a person in tamas is not be capable of adopting sattvic practices, so rather than prohibit things that they will do anyway, they are regulated through puranas in tamas and rajas (and such puranas, as illustrated by the skanda purana, have entire sections dedicated to the glories of visnu and visnu's devotees just to drop a few subtle hints amongst all the glories of temporary benefits) - this enables gradual advancement rather then the fatal demand of all or nothing.

The same holds true with the worship of demigods - there is nothing sinful about the worship of demigods. The only problem is that such boons are relegated to fields of material prosperity that fall short of entrance into vaikuntha.

hence

BG 5.29: A person in full consciousness of Me, knowing Me to be the ultimate beneficiary of all sacrifices and austerities, the Supreme Lord of all planets and demigods, and the benefactor and well-wisher of all living entities, attains peace from the pangs of material miseries.

worship of demigods is unable to grant ultimate peace, since they offer material boons (just like money, health, wealth etc are not fail safe ingredients of happiness)


even lord shiva gives special status to the bhagavad gita over any other vedic literature
http://www.bhagavad-gita.us/articles/665/1/Gita-Mahatmya-Chapter-Eighteen/

Lord Shiva said; "Oh daughter of the Himalayas (Parvati), please listen to the glories of the Eighteenth Chapter of Srimad Bhagavad-Gita, which is higher than the Vedas and the giver of unlimited bliss. When it enters into one's ears it destroys all material desires. For the pure devotee, it is divine nectar, it is Lord Vishnu's very life and it is a solace to the hearts of Lord Indra and the demigods as well as the great yogis headed by Sanaka and Sananda.

As such, it is not my decrying of the practice of the worship of demigods but Krsna's, as indicated

BG 7.20: Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures.

Is this 'rule' applicable to Vishnu & his avatars who worshipped the 'demigods' Shiva, Shakti etc. ?

SB 8.5.49: When one pours water on the root of a tree, the trunk and branches of the tree are automatically pleased. Similarly, when one becomes a devotee of Lord Viṣṇu, everyone is served, for the Lord is the Supersoul of everyone.

As stated in the Padma Purāṇa (by Lord Siva):

ārādhanānāḿ sarveṣāḿ

viṣṇor ārādhanaḿ param

tasmāt parataraḿ devi

tadīyānāḿ samarcanam

"Of all types of worship, worship of Lord Viṣṇu is best, and better than the worship of Lord Viṣṇu is the worship of His devotee, the Vaiṣṇava." There are many demigods worshiped by people who are attached to material desires (kāmais tais tair hṛta jñānāḥ prapadyante'nya-devatāḥ [Bg. 7.20]). Because people are embarrassed by so many material desires, they worship Lord Śiva, Lord Brahmā, the goddess Kālī, Durgā, Gaṇeśa and Sūrya to achieve different results. However, one can achieve all these results simultaneously just by worshiping Lord Viṣṇu.
http://srimadbhagavatam.com/8/5/49/en

since siva is an outstanding vaisnava ....

SB 12.13.16: Just as the Gańgā is the greatest of all rivers, Lord Acyuta the supreme among deities and Lord Śambhu [Śiva] the greatest of Vaiṣṇavas, so Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the greatest of all Purāṇas.

visnu is confirming the earlier statements that worship of the devotee is greater than the worship of visnu, and acting in such a way that others who hear can act accordingly (of course if one worships vaisnava with the view that they are supreme, like say vrkasura, then one gets cheated)

 

[Ayodhya]

Siva is the greatest Vaishnavite in the Vaishnava tradition. Vishnu is a great Shaivite in the Shaivite tradition. Do you not see the stupidity in quoting SB for the position of Shiva in the pantheon?

Why does the worship of demi-gods automatically lead to material wishes?

I can't worship Shiva without being somehow materially inclined?
What about all the Shaivite ascetics that exist?

You're saying that all those who worship Vishnu are somehow more pious or less materialistic than those who worship other Gods. That doesn't make logical sense.

Isn't it odd that Krishna Consciousness promotes the divinity of Jesus, but can't promote the Gods of the religion of it derives from? Isn't that ironic?

 

[lightgigantic]

Siva is the greatest Vaishnavite in the Vaishnava tradition. Vishnu is a great Shaivite in the Shaivite tradition. Do you not see the stupidity in quoting SB for the position of Shiva in the pantheon?

All you need now is a quote from the vedas regarding vishnu being the greatest shaivite

Why does the worship of demi-gods automatically lead to material wishes?

because their benedictions are limited to granting boons upon one's corporeal body - thus one has no eternal relationship with demigods because one does not have an eternal relationship with their body - and in fact not even demigods have an eternal relationship with their own body

BG 8.16: From the highest planet (ā-brahma-bhuvanāt — up to the Brahmaloka planet) in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again.

and regarding the body of visnu
BG 4.6: Although I am unborn and My transcendental body never deteriorates, and although I am the Lord of all living entities, I still appear in every millennium in My original transcendental form.

I can't worship Shiva without being somehow materially inclined?

not unless you worship siva as the greatest vaisnava

What about all the Shaivite ascetics that exist?

tyaga (renunciation of material enjoyment) is the response to bhoga (pursuit of sense enjoyment)

Generally the conditioned souls are engaged in bhoga-tyāga. Sometimes they run madly after material prestige and sense gratification, and sometimes they desperately try to renounce these things. However, beyond this vicious cycle of alternating sense gratification and renunciation are the lotus feet of the Lord, which constitute the ultimate abode of peace and happiness for the living entity.
http://srimadbhagavatam.com/11/5/33/en

the karmis are after bhoga
the jnanis are after tyaga
but the BG reccommends that one give up both bhoga (the view "i am the enjoyer of this material world) and tyaga (the view that "i am the renouncer of this world") and simply surrender unto god

BG 18.66: Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear.

there is the example that if you walk up to a bank and say "I want to spend this money" it is foolishness because it wasn't yours to begin with - and if you walk up to the bank and say "I want to renounce the money in this bank" it is also foolishness because the money was never yours to renounce in the first place

You're saying that all those who worship Vishnu are somehow more pious or less materialistic than those who worship other Gods. That doesn't make logical sense.

if visnu is distinct from the demigods in the sense that his abode and form are eternal and thathe is the cause of all causes, then it certainly seems to confer a few extra bonuses.

However one can worship vishnu with material desire - but such mode of worship is not perfectional (but still stands as a better vantage point than worshipping a demigod, since at least one has the right object of worship in mind, even if their mode of worship is not right)

Isn't it odd that Krishna Consciousness promotes the divinity of Jesus, but can't promote the Gods of the religion of it derives from? Isn't that ironic?

the demigids are respected as elevated managers of universal affairs that are delegated their powers by vishnu.
The standard practice of worship in vaishnava temples that involve demigods, is that bhoga offerings are made to the deity of vishnu, and then that offering is taken to any existing demigods, and then that offering is distributed to the general public.
this is the system in jaganatha puri - offering jagantha's prasada to bimal (durga) is what designates it as maha prasada instead of prasada

the principle is that demigods are in designated positions from Visnu, much like a monarch bestows designated positions for the administration -

regarding jesus, he is accepted as a guru - which is something else again - a guru may not be a demigod and a demigod may not be a guru, but as in the case of siva, who makes up one of the four branches of the vaisnava sampradayas (the other three being brahma, the kumaras and Lakshmi) he is both

 

[Ayodhya]

not unless you worship siva as the greatest vaisnava

Regardless of what I have said thus far, this comment creates a clear picture of your stance on this issue. It is not impossible for one to worship a "demi"-god without a material inclination. This fact is based on a person's character and personality, not on the idol he puts before him.

I cannot say I am not proud of my parents' religion, because to me, it is one of the most respectful, tolerant, accepting, religion of any on the planet, but Krishna Consciousness has effectively ruined that. However, if anything, KC is at best a cult in the eyes of Americans and I hope it stays that way.

So, I am inclined to question your further:
1) What is the definition of Krishna Consciousness as opposed to Enlightenment?
2) Can a Shaivite ascetic attain the same state of Enlightenment as a Vaishnavite (if he considers Shiva to be the highest of all the Gods), or is he doomed to reincarnation simply because of his affinity for Shiva?

 

[lightgigantic]

Regardless of what I have said thus far, this comment creates a clear picture of your stance on this issue. It is not impossible for one to worship a "demi"-god without a material inclination. This fact is based on a person's character and personality, not on the idol he puts before him.

lol
don't take offense atthe notion of 'materialistic' religion - frankly, suddha bhakti is an incredibley rare thing, even amongst practicing vaisnavas

BG 7.3: Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.

in other words in the absence of the performance of suddha bhakti, one is performing one of the 81 varieties (derived from the 3 gunas) of religion.

When I say materialistic worship, I mean worship according to karma (fruitive desire) and jnana (a view to attain one's own liberation, usually of the impersonal variety).

that is why the definition of bhakti is

CC Madhya 19.167: "'When first-class devotional service develops, one must be devoid of all material desires, knowledge obtained by monistic philosophy, and fruitive action. The devotee must constantly serve Kṛṣṇa favorably, as Kṛṣṇa desires.'

BTW vaisnavism is not a recent or foreign thing - if you find my presentation of vedic statements regarding demigod worship unpalatable it is nothing compared to the conclusions of ramanuja, madhvacarya and Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati

but anyway my point is not to offend or to assert my personal brilliance as a supposed vasinava, but to establish the ideal example represented in the vedic literature

try reading the chapter and purports of the counter cursing that took place in the Daksa sacrifice if you want a clue as to what has actually ruined the fabric of indian spiritual culture
http://srimadbhagavatam.com/4/2/en

So, I am inclined to question your further:
1) What is the definition of Krishna Consciousness as opposed to Enlightenment?

CC Ādi 7.144: "Love of Godhead is so exalted that it is considered to be the fifth goal of human life. By awakening one's love of Godhead, one can attain the platform of topmost love, tasting it even during the present span of life.

purport .....
Generally people are aware of four principal goals of life — religiosity (dharma), economic development (artha), sense gratification (kāma) and ultimately liberation (mokṣa) — but devotional service is situated on the platform above liberation. In other words, when one is actually liberated (mukta) he can understand the meaning of love of Godhead (kṛṣṇa-prema).

Often it is alluded that liberation innvolves ceasing action, however higher than such type of liberation is pure, spontaneous loving service to god (if karma and jnana are innvolved it doesn't qualify) - in other words KC is the activities of liberation

2) Can a Shaivite ascetic attain the same state of Enlightenment as a Vaishnavite (if he considers Shiva to be the highest of all the Gods), or is he doomed to reincarnation simply because of his affinity for Shiva?

complicated q because shivaji is an exalted vaisnava (if one gets the mercy of a vaisnava they get suddha bhakti - to visnu of course)
you might find these article excerpts interesting, particularly the last one titled "mercy and cheating"
http://www.gopaljiu.org/Publications/MagazinesIndividual/7_Shiva1.htm
Issue No.8 is also exclusively about siva too

In short though, if one worships siva as the topmost cause of all causes one will attain to his abode, which is a type of liberation but not the eternal variety - but it would be a conducive atmosphere to make further spiritual progress .... all provided one doesn'tget side tracked by mustic perfections, wealth, prestige, influence etc, which is what siva is mostly worshipped for

 

[Ayodhya]

Whatever, Advaita Vedanta and the Perennial Philosophy are greater to me than any of these silly passages from Vaishnavite scriptures.

The four sacred Vedas, mankind's oldest scriptures, intone, "To Rudra [Siva], Lord of sacrifice, of hymns and balmy medicines, we pray for joy and health and strength. He shines in splendor like the sun, refulgent as bright gold is He, the good, the best among the Gods (Rig Veda 43.4--5)." "He is God, hidden in all beings, their inmost soul who is in all. He watches the works of creation, lives in all things, watches all things. He is pure consciousness, beyond the three conditions of nature (Yajur Veda, Svet.U.6.11)." "There the eye goes not, nor words, nor mind. We know not. We cannot understand how He can be explained. He is above the known, and He is above the unknown (Sama Veda, Kena U. 1.3)." "Fire is His head, the sun and moon His eyes, space His ears, the Vedas His speech, the wind His breath, the universe His heart. From His feet the Earth has originated. Verily, He is the inner Self of all beings. (Atharva Veda, Mund.U. 2.1.4)."

 

[lightgigantic]

Whatever, Advaita Vedanta and the Perennial Philosophy are greater to me than any of these silly passages from Vaishnavite scriptures.

The four sacred Vedas, mankind's oldest scriptures, intone, "To Rudra [Siva], Lord of sacrifice, of hymns and balmy medicines, we pray for joy and health and strength. He shines in splendor like the sun, refulgent as bright gold is He, the good, the best among the Gods (Rig Veda 43.4--5)." "He is God, hidden in all beings, their inmost soul who is in all. He watches the works of creation, lives in all things, watches all things. He is pure consciousness, beyond the three conditions of nature (Yajur Veda, Svet.U.6.11)." "There the eye goes not, nor words, nor mind. We know not. We cannot understand how He can be explained. He is above the known, and He is above the unknown (Sama Veda, Kena U. 1.3)." "Fire is His head, the sun and moon His eyes, space His ears, the Vedas His speech, the wind His breath, the universe His heart. From His feet the Earth has originated. Verily, He is the inner Self of all beings. (Atharva Veda, Mund.U. 2.1.4)."

before we proceed, why do you belittle the SB and BG and praise Sivaji, when Sivaji glorifies these scriptures?

 

[everneo]

Perhaps Ayodhya too was fed up with your circular logic and your beating around the bush with your selective generous quotes on SB in other puranas to deride the very deities they were deicated to.

Obviously he gives more credit to Vedas and vedanta than your promotional compagin of making SB as the bible and Vishnuji ( Krsna to be precise) as the sole godhead of hindus.

I would like to see how your are going to step dance back & forth while responding to his quotes from vedas about the 'demigod' shiva.

 

[lightgigantic]

Perhaps Ayodhya too was fed up with your circular logic and your beating around the bush with your selective generous quotes on SB in other puranas to deride the very deities they were deicated to.

once again, its not clear why you consider them selective - my issue is that it is pointless to present arguments on the basis of scripture for a person who doesn't hold them as credible - either you accept the vead as authoratative or you don't - do reject vedic statements according to one's whimsy is duplicious (to reject vedic statements acording to vedic statements is "sastra caksu" however)

Obviously he gives more credit to Vedas and vedanta than your promotional compagin of making SB as the bible and Vishnuji ( Krsna to be precise) as the sole godhead of hindus.

such a stance would be credible if you could find vedic statements to that effect (statements that attribute more status to the vedas and vedanta than the puranas, specifically the SB and BG, since they are the one's you contend)
You can however find statements that establsih the position of SB and BG over other literature ....

I would like to see how your are going to step dance back & forth while responding to his quotes from vedas about the 'demigod' shiva.

There are vedic statements that can explain the situation further, but its useless to explain them to a person who attributes more value to their own mind and senses than the vedas - so I am trying to establish on what grounds a person who says they accept the vedas can overide the vedas according to their mind and senses

For instance why do you assert that the SB and BG can be over looked or are biased when the personality you advocate as authoratative, Lord Siva, suggests otherwise?

 

[everneo]

once again, its not clear why you consider them selective - my issue is that it is pointless to present arguments on the basis of scripture for a person who doesn't hold them as credible - either you accept the vead as authoratative or you don't - do reject vedic statements according to one's whimsy is duplicious (to reject vedic statements acording to vedic statements is "sastra caksu" however)

I showed you a few samples from other puranas - how their respective deities are projected as supreme just as how SB projects it own deity as supreme. You pulled out classification of puranas according to vaishnavite scriptures to belittle other puranas as rajasic & tamasic. You don't accept sages who worshipped shiva and other deities as sattvic. You don't accept other deities as aspects of God but are mere devotees of your deity. You quote from other puranas on how SB and Vishnu too are glorified by them but instead of understanding their generous spirit you boast this as their confirmation of their inferiority. In short, you constantly belittle all other vedic scriptures other than vaishnavite ones. You are either immature or lack intellectual honesty or an arrogant bigot.

such a stance would be credible if you could find vedic statements to that effect (statements that attribute more status to the vedas and vedanta than the puranas, specifically the SB and BG, since they are the one's you contend)
You can however find statements that establsih the position of SB and BG over other literature ....

No more bullshit. Try to answer Ayodhya's quote on Shiva from vedas.

There are vedic statements that can explain the situation further, but its useless to explain them to a person who attributes more value to their own mind and senses than the vedas - so I am trying to establish on what grounds a person who says they accept the vedas can overide the vedas according to their mind and senses

If you attribute more value to vedas, which i suspect, that is enough for explaining.
Try to answer directly this time instead of quoting vaishnavite scriptures.

For instance why do you assert that the SB and BG can be over looked or are biased when the personality you advocate as authoratative, Lord Siva, suggests otherwise?

My dad says your dad accepted my dad as your father. Why don't you accept it?