Hindu Deities & their meanings

[lightgigantic]

LG,

If i quote shivapurana or devi mahatmiyam or skandapurana you would realize that all the puranas/samhitas including bhavad purana/brahma-smhita emphasise only their favourite deities are supreme. There is no point in finding who is supreme, anyway. besides, it is rather divisive argument.

I doubt if you can find a scriptural quote that clearly establishes how any other entity (or even brahman itself) is the cause of any incarnation of visnu. You may find quotes that establish the greatness of a personality (after all, the 18 puranas are divided into three divisions according to sattva, rajas and tamas, so naturally there will be different focuses of importance), but you can not find quotes that specifically establish any entity's greatness in comparison to visnu.

However you can find many quotes that specifically state how visnu is the infallible cause to durga, siva, ganesh etc.

It is not a divisive argument, any more than establishing that sattva possesses superior qualities to tamas or rajas

 

[everneo]

I doubt if you can find a scriptural quote that clearly establishes how any other entity (or even brahman itself) is the cause of any incarnation of visnu.

Are we talking about vishnu or incarnations of vishnu?? if it is about later, parents of those incarnations were the cause, naturally and obviously.

It seems you don't agree that shiva purana and skanda purana etc as scriptures.

You may find quotes that establish the greatness of a personality (after all, the 18 puranas are divided into three divisions according to sattva, rajas and tamas, so naturally there will be different focuses of importance), but you can not find quotes that specifically establish any entity's greatness in comparison to visnu.

Some puranas don't not just compare but go to the extent of embarassing you.

However you can find many quotes that specifically state how visnu is the infallible cause to durga, siva, ganesh etc.

in brahma samhita, bhagavad purana etc, ofcourse.

It is not a divisive argument, any more than establishing that sattva possesses superior qualities to tamas or rajas

God is supposed to be above all these gunas. By nature the deities are sattva, if necessary they assume rajas or tamas for the sake of other mortals.

 

[lightgigantic]

everneo

“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
I doubt if you can find a scriptural quote that clearly establishes how any other entity (or even brahman itself) is the cause of any incarnation of visnu.
”
Are we talking about vishnu or incarnations of vishnu?? if it is about later, parents of those incarnations were the cause, naturally and obviously.

There is no distinction, in terms of tattva, between vishnu and an incarnation of vishnutherefore the appearance of vishnu is not mundane, hence numerous refernces in BG

One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.
BG 4.9

By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them.
BG 9.4

BG 4.6 Although I am unborn and My transcendental body never deteriorates, and although I am the Lord of all living entities, I still appear in every millennium in My original transcendental form.

As for the parents of krishna, they certainly seem to be aware of the situation

SB 10.3.15-17: (Vasudeva, the husband of devaki, prays) The mahat-tattva, the total material energy, is undivided, but because of the material modes of nature, it appears to separate into earth, water, fire, air and ether. Because of the living energy [jīva-bhūta], these separated energies combine to make the cosmic manifestation visible, but in fact, before the creation of the cosmos, the total energy is already present. Therefore, the total material energy never actually enters the creation. Similarly, although You are perceived by our senses because of Your presence, You cannot be perceived by the senses, nor experienced by the mind or words [avāń-mānasa-gocara]. With our senses we can perceive some things, but not everything; for example, we can use our eyes to see, but not to taste. Consequently, You are beyond perception by the senses. Although in touch with the modes of material nature, You are unaffected by them. You are the prime factor in everything, the all-pervading, undivided Supersoul. For You, therefore, there is no external or internal. You never entered the womb of Devakī; rather, You existed there already.

SB 10.3.24: Śrī Devakī said: My dear Lord, there are different Vedas, some of which describe You as unperceivable through words and the mind. Yet You are the origin of the entire cosmic manifestation. You are Brahman, the greatest of everything, full of effulgence like the sun. You have no material cause, You are free from change and deviation, and You have no material desires. Thus the Vedas say that You are the substance. Therefore, my Lord, You are directly the origin of all Vedic statements, and by understanding You, one gradually understands everything. You are different from the light of Brahman and Paramātmā, yet You are not different from them. Everything emanates from You. Indeed, You are the cause of all causes, Lord Viṣṇu, the light of all transcendental knowledge.

It seems you don't agree that shiva purana and skanda purana etc as scriptures.

try these from the skanda purana

saḿsāre 'smin mahā-ghore

janma-mṛtyu-samākule

pūjanaḿ vāsudevasya

tārakaḿ vādibhiḥ smṛtam

In the material world, which is full of darkness and dangers, combined with birth and death and full of different anxieties, the only way to get out of the great entanglement is to accept loving transcendental devotional service to Lord Vāsudeva. This is accepted by all classes of philosophers.

and this one which is found in the skanda, linga and padma purana

āloḍya sarva-śāstrāni

vicārya ca punaḥ punaḥ

idam ekaḿ suniṣpannaḿ

dhyeyo nārāyaṇaḥ sadā

"By scrutinizingly reviewing all the revealed scriptures and judging them again and again, it is now concluded that Lord Nārāyaṇa is the Supreme Absolute Truth, and thus He alone should be worshiped."

and this one from the skanda purana again

arcite deva-deveśe

śańkha-cakra-gadā-dhare

arcitāḥ sarva-devāḥ syur

yataḥ sarva-gato hariḥ

When the Supreme Lord, the personality of Godhead, who carries in His hands a conchshell, wheel, club and lotus flower, is worshiped, certainly all other demigods are worshiped automatically because Hari, the personality of Godhead, is all-pervading. Therefore, in all cases, namely nominative, objective, causative, dative, ablative, possessive and supportive, everyone is benefited by such transcendental loving service to the Lord. The man who worships the Lord, the Lord Himself who is worshiped, the cause for which the Lord is worshiped, the source of supply, the place where such worship is done, etc. — everything is benefited by such an action.

and of course the visnu purana is loaded full of things like

sa hānis tan mahac chidraḿ

sa mohaḥ sa ca vibhramaḥ

yan-muhūrtaḿ kṣaṇaḿ vāpi

vāsudevaḿ na cintayet

"If even for a moment remembrance of Vāsudeva, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is missed, that is the greatest loss, that is the greatest illusion, and that is the greatest anomaly."

if you are interested in followingthis up you can read
http://srimadbhagavatam.com/2/9/36/en, from which this references were excerpted

regarding siva, he is accepted as the greatest vaisnava

SB 12.13.16: Just as the Gańgā is the greatest of all rivers, Lord Acyuta the supreme among deities and Lord Śambhu [Śiva] the greatest of Vaiṣṇavas, so Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the greatest of all Purāṇas.

there are 4 vasinava sampradayas, of which siva is the param guru of one (although as a side issue there is the incident innvolving the cursing of daksa and nandi, which has implications for one who worships siva not as a servant of vishnu but as the supreme cause - an overview on http://srimadbhagavatam.com/4/2/en)

“
You may find quotes that establish the greatness of a personality (after all, the 18 puranas are divided into three divisions according to sattva, rajas and tamas, so naturally there will be different focuses of importance), but you can not find quotes that specifically establish any entity's greatness in comparison to visnu.
”
Some puranas don't not just compare but go to the extent of embarassing you.

well please feel free to quote them

“
However you can find many quotes that specifically state how visnu is the infallible cause to durga, siva, ganesh etc.
”
in brahma samhita, bhagavad purana etc, ofcourse.

It can established through other sources, even the skanda purana as indicated - what I am finding perplexing at the moment is whether you actually accept the vedas as a body of scriptural work - they are all attributed (upanisads, puranas, vedas, vedanta sutra etc) to vyasdeva. Its not clear on what grounds you reject some of vyasadeva's works and accept others (If you are an atheist it is useless to talk of scriptural authority- better philosophy - and if you are a theist why do you think you have a better grasp on authorship than srila vyasadeva?)

“
It is not a divisive argument, any more than establishing that sattva possesses superior qualities to tamas or rajas
”
God is supposed to be above all these gunas. By nature the deities are sattva, if necessary they assume rajas or tamas for the sake of other mortals.

I was illustrating not the nature of god but the nature of the vedas and puranas - 90% deal with fruitive activities, 9% deal with jnana and less than 1% deals with pure unmotivated devotional service to the supreme personality of godhead - the reason is that the living entities have numerous material desires and the vedas aims at addressing this by providing the opportunity for purification for persons at all levels of material contamination
hence ....

BG 2.45 The Vedas deal mainly with the subject of the three modes of material nature. O Arjuna, become transcendental to these three modes. Be free from all dualities and from all anxieties for gain and safety, and be established in the self.

BG 2.46 All purposes served by a small well can at once be served by a great reservoir of water. Similarly, all the purposes of the Vedas can be served to one who knows the purpose behind them.

 

[lightgigantic]

Is the Brahma-samhita a separate document or part of the Bhagavatam Purana?

it is a seperate document - there are numerous samhitas by numeorus personalities (like the garga samhita is a treatise of the realizations of garga muni) - brahma samhit is the realizations of brahma after the successful performance of his meditation, just prior to his beginning the engineering of the material universe

Shaivites, for instance, do not consider Vishnu to be Supreme. Instead, if you read the Shiva Purana and the Shiva Agamas, Vishnu and all the other Gods bow to the Shiva. And if you read the Shakti Purana, Vishnu, Shiva and all the other Gods bow to Shakti and her other forms.

I just posted a huge tract of scriptural quotes, mostly form the skanda purana BTW, to everneo just below - rather than post it again perhaps you can read it - if you are interested in the topic you can read the source on
http://srimadbhagavatam.com/2/9/36/en

In Hinduism, God is considering transcendent (impersonal) and immanent (personal), so it is no surprise that in each Purana, each sage had his favorite deity who he placed above the rest. To establish a heirarchy is almost impossible.

actually this is a topic of heated discussion within the rich theistic philosophy of india -
at the very least, tehre are numerous scriptural quotes to establish that there are flaws in considering the words "transcendental" and "impersonal" synonomous - just to give you the tip of the ice berg ...

BG 7.22: Endowed with such a faith, he endeavors to worship a particular demigod and obtains his desires. But in actuality these benefits are bestowed by Me alone.

BG 7.23: Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet.

BG 7.24: Unintelligent men, who do not know Me perfectly, think that I, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, was impersonal before and have now assumed this personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is imperishable and supreme.

BG 14.27: And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is immortal, imperishable and eternal and is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness.

Read the Upanishads and you will find that Brahman is not even that transcendent, and instead, acts like a God himself (formless, cannot be sensed or known, but only experienced).

experienced through what - merging in brahman is where the object of knowledge, the process of knowledge and the knowable are all one, thus there is no "I" to speak of, what to speak of an experience

According to the Upanishads, it explicitly states that Brahman is the source of all the Gods and makes no exception for Vishnu or any other Gods.

there is the isopanisad

Iso Invocation: The Personality of Godhead is perfect and complete, and because He is completely perfect, all emanations from Him, such as this phenomenal world, are perfectly equipped as complete wholes. Whatever is produced of the Complete Whole is also complete in itself. Because He is the Complete Whole, even though so many complete units emanate from Him, He remains the complete balance.

all emanations come from a perfect source - how can brahman, which is bereft of any qualities or varieties be the perfect source of variety?

Iso 12: Those who are engaged in the worship of demigods enter into the darkest region of ignorance, and still more so do the worshipers of the impersonal Absolute.

In case there i s any further doubt

Iso 15: O my Lord, sustainer of all that lives, Your real face is covered by Your dazzling effulgence. Kindly remove that covering and exhibit Yourself to Your pure devotee.

indicates that the impersonal brahman rests on something - fully confirmed in the BG
BG 14.27: And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is immortal, imperishable and eternal and is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness.

Katha Upaniñad 2.2.13
The Supreme Lord is eternal and the living beings are eternal. The Supreme Lord is cognizant and the living beings are cognizant. The difference is that the Supreme Lord is supplying all the necessities of life for the many other living entities.

indicates that the consciousness of the living entities is contingent on the consciousness of god

The Bhagavad Gita was written much later than the Upanishads and most likely by a Vaishnavite, who grew up being taught that Vishnu was the highest, and thus incorporated it into the scripture.

all the vedas, including the upanisads and puranas, owe their creedence to srila vyasadeva - if you are not working out of that understanding you have no entrance into discussion of vedic scripture (if one is actually on the platform of assigning merit to the vedas, one cannot over ride vedic statements by saying "well actually thats not a very important part of the vedas" - the only exception is if you can quote a vedic statement that assigns relative greater or lesser importance to an aspect of the vedas - either you accept the vedas in their entirety or you don't accept them at all - in the event of the later there is no point discussing the vedas, rather it is philosophy, outside of scriptural injunctions, that is more progressive)

 

[everneo]

There is no distinction, in terms of tattva, between vishnu and an incarnation of vishnutherefore the appearance of vishnu is not mundane, hence numerous refernces in BG

Parasurama, Rama and Balarama needed others to remind that they were incarnation of Vishnu.

As for the parents of krishna, they certainly seem to be aware of the situation

so says SB.

try these from the skanda purana

saḿsāre 'smin mahā-ghore

janma-mṛtyu-samākule

pūjanaḿ vāsudevasya

tārakaḿ vādibhiḥ smṛtam

In the material world, which is full of darkness and dangers, combined with birth and death and full of different anxieties, the only way to get out of the great entanglement is to accept loving transcendental devotional service to Lord Vāsudeva. This is accepted by all classes of philosophers.

and this one which is found in the skanda, linga and padma purana

āloḍya sarva-śāstrāni

vicārya ca punaḥ punaḥ

idam ekaḿ suniṣpannaḿ

dhyeyo nārāyaṇaḥ sadā

"By scrutinizingly reviewing all the revealed scriptures and judging them again and again, it is now concluded that Lord Nārāyaṇa is the Supreme Absolute Truth, and thus He alone should be worshiped."

and this one from the skanda purana again

arcite deva-deveśe

śańkha-cakra-gadā-dhare

arcitāḥ sarva-devāḥ syur

yataḥ sarva-gato hariḥ

When the Supreme Lord, the personality of Godhead, who carries in His hands a conchshell, wheel, club and lotus flower, is worshiped, certainly all other demigods are worshiped automatically because Hari, the personality of Godhead, is all-pervading. Therefore, in all cases, namely nominative, objective, causative, dative, ablative, possessive and supportive, everyone is benefited by such transcendental loving service to the Lord. The man who worships the Lord, the Lord Himself who is worshiped, the cause for which the Lord is worshiped, the source of supply, the place where such worship is done, etc. — everything is benefited by such an action.

I could not find them in Skanda purana or linga purana. Please give the verse numbers.

if you are interested in followingthis up you can read
http://srimadbhagavatam.com/2/9/36/en, from which this references were excerpted

Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī Prabhupāda is said to have quoted those puranas. I have no idea what kind of person this srila guy is.

regarding siva, he is accepted as the greatest vaisnava


there are 4 vasinava sampradayas, of which siva is the param guru of one (although as a side issue there is the incident innvolving the cursing of daksa and nandi, which has implications for one who worships siva not as a servant of vishnu but as the supreme cause - an overview on http://srimadbhagavatam.com/4/2/en)

SB is hardly a source to be identified with deities other than Vishnu.

well please feel free to quote them

mudslinging is not a great virtue, leaving that affair to you and the puranas.

It can established through other sources, even the skanda purana as indicated - what I am finding perplexing at the moment is whether you actually accept the vedas as a body of scriptural work - they are all attributed (upanisads, puranas, vedas, vedanta sutra etc) to vyasdeva. Its not clear on what grounds you reject some of vyasadeva's works and accept others (If you are an atheist it is useless to talk of scriptural authority- better philosophy - and if you are a theist why do you think you have a better grasp on authorship than srila vyasadeva?)

Nothing was established so far. Read for yourself other puranas by vyasadeva.

I was illustrating not the nature of god but the nature of the vedas and puranas - 90% deal with fruitive activities, 9% deal with jnana and less than 1% deals with pure unmotivated devotional service to the supreme personality of godhead - the reason is that the living entities have numerous material desires and the vedas aims at addressing this by providing the opportunity for purification for persons at all levels of material contamination
hence ....

customizing scriptures for every one ! see what happened, result is bigotry.

BG 2.45 The Vedas deal mainly with the subject of the three modes of material nature. O Arjuna, become transcendental to these three modes. Be free from all dualities and from all anxieties for gain and safety, and be established in the self.

BG 2.46 All purposes served by a small well can at once be served by a great reservoir of water. Similarly, all the purposes of the Vedas can be served to one who knows the purpose behind them.

Vedas seldom speak of the deities like Vishnu, Shiva etc. Most of the upanishads too talk more about brahman than these deities.

 

[lightgigantic]

Ever neo

Before I respond I think you should respond to this

It can established through other sources, even the skanda purana as indicated - what I am finding perplexing at the moment is whether you actually accept the vedas as a body of scriptural work - they are all attributed (upanisads, puranas, vedas, vedanta sutra etc) to vyasdeva. Its not clear on what grounds you reject some of vyasadeva's works and accept others (If you are an atheist it is useless to talk of scriptural authority- better philosophy - and if you are a theist why do you think you have a better grasp on authorship than srila vyasadeva?)

your response is not sufficient

Nothing was established so far. Read for yourself other puranas by vyasadeva.]

If you don't give any creedence to vedic authority (such as the four Vedas (Rg, Yajur, Sama and Atharva) and the eighteen Puranas, the Upanisads and the Vedanta-sutra) feeling at ease to pick and choose whatever scriptures compiled by vyasadeva appeal to your whimsical ideas and disregarding others, there is no point in having any in depth discussion on the basis of the vedas

śruti-smṛti-purāṇādi-

pañcarātra-vidhiḿ vinā

aikāntikī harer bhaktir

utpātāyaiva kalpate

"Devotional service of the Lord that ignores the authorized Vedic literatures like the Upaniṣads, Purāṇas and Nārada-pañcarātra is simply an unnecessary disturbance in society."

"As already explained, there are three prasthānas on the path of advancement in spiritual knowledge — namely, nyāya-prasthāna (Vedānta philosophy), śruti-prasthāna (the Upaniṣads and Vedic mantras) and smṛti-prasthāna (the Bhagavad-gītā, Mahābhārata, Purāṇas, etc.). Unfortunately, Māyāvādī philosophers do not accept the smṛti-prasthāna. Smṛti refers to the conclusions drawn from the Vedic evidence. Sometimes Māyāvādī philosophers do not accept the authority of the Bhagavad-gītā and the Purāṇas, and this is called ardha-kukkuṭī-nyāya, "the logic of half a hen" (See Ādi-līlā 5.176). If one believes in the Vedic literatures, one must accept all the Vedic literatures recognized by the great ācāryas, but the Māyāvādī philosophers accept only the nyāya-prasthāna and śruti-prasthāna, rejecting the smṛti-prasthāna.

http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/adi/7/117/en
BTW - the logic of half a hen is that one is impressed by the egg laying capacity of one part of the chicken but not so enthusiastic about the head which requires to be fed - so the logic is to chop off the head to remove the unwanted part

 

[everneo]

You should ask the question to yourself.

 

[lightgigantic]

You should ask the question to yourself.

I accept everything that falls under the catergory of vedic literature - I am curious why you do not - before we continue the discussion I think it has to be addressed on what grounds you say the skanda purana is vedic and other puranas like the bhagavatam and the bhagavad gita are not (or perhaps you are saying that the SB does not have credibility - maybe you can clarify your position?)

 

[everneo]

I told you to peep into other puranas than SB, VP etc. I never said i don't accept SB, but SB alone is not the preferred purana.

Your arguement that "accept them as whole" is more applicable to you than me, for i am the one telling you to take all the puranas into consideration before declaring anything.

 

[lightgigantic]

I told you to peep into other puranas than SB, VP etc. I never said i don't accept SB, but SB alone is not the preferred purana.

Your arguement that "accept them as whole" is more applicable to you than me, for i am the one telling you to take all the puranas into consideration before declaring anything.

and I did that - I quoted the skanda purana
it is you that decries the value of vedic statements by saying "but that is from the bhagavata purana" or "that is from the bhagavad gita" - that is not the method how problems are ressolved in the vedas-
it is ironic that you don't describe the SB as the preferred purana (BTW what do you mean that some purana is not the 'preferred' purana?), since it was the final last work of Vyasadeva that satisfied his despondency for not presenting vedic knowledge to his full satisfaction

SB 1.4.24: Thus the great sage Vyāsadeva, who is very kind to the ignorant masses, edited the Vedas so they might be assimilated by less intellectual men.

SB 1.4.25: Out of compassion, the great sage thought it wise that this would enable men to achieve the ultimate goal of life. Thus he compiled the great historical narration called the Mahābhārata for women, laborers and friends of the twice-born.

SB 1.4.26: O twice-born brāhmaṇas, still his mind was not satisfied, although he engaged himself in working for the total welfare of all people.

SB 1.4.27: Thus the sage, being dissatisfied at heart, at once began to reflect, because he knew the essence of religion, and he said within himself:

SB 1.4.28-29: I have, under strict disciplinary vows, unpretentiously worshiped the Vedas, the spiritual master and the altar of sacrifice. I have also abided by the rulings and have shown the import of disciplic succession through the explanation of the Mahābhārata, by which even women, śūdras and others [friends of the twice-born] can see the path of religion.

SB 1.4.30: I am feeling incomplete, though I myself am fully equipped with everything required by the Vedas.

SB 1.4.31: This may be because I did not specifically point out the devotional service of the Lord, which is dear both to perfect beings and to the infallible Lord.

the point of the vedas, both smrti and sruti, is that it is all cohesive - if one perceives contradictions in the vedas that is due to a lack of knowledge of the perceiver - the problem is that the vedas is literally an ocean and impossible for the modern person to comprehend - therefore the bhagavad gita is accepted as the most common book in hinduism

(padma purana)
TEXT 13
TRANSLATION
A person who knows nothing about learning and teaching the Gita is a failure in the duty of the human form of life.

even sripad sankacharya (who is not a vaisnava) comments

TEXT 4
TRANSLATION
Because Bhagavad-gita is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one need not read any other Vedic literature. One need only attentively and regularly hear and read Bhagavad-gita. In the present age, people are so absorbed in mundane activities that it is not possible for them to read all the Vedic literatures. But this is not necessary. This one book, Bhagavad-gita, will suffice, because it is the essence of all Vedic literatures and especially because it is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

any vedic conclusion, even from the upanisads, can be substantiated by the gita

TEXT 6
TRANSLATION
All the Upanisads are like a cow, and the milker of the cow is Sri Krishna, the son of Nanda. Arjuna is the calf, the beautiful nectar of the Gita is the milk, and the fortunate devotees of fine theistic intellect are the drinkers and enjoyers of that milk.

further elaborated in padma purana
TEXT 23
TRANSLATION
The study of the Vedas and Puranas - verily, the study of all scriptures is completed in all respects by one who studies the Gitä with devotion.

even lord shiva gives special status to the bhagavad gita
http://www.bhagavad-gita.us/articles/683/1/Gita-Mahatmya-Chapter-One/

 

[everneo]

and I did that - I quoted the skanda purana

You quoted what srila goswami quoted. I asked the verse numbers you are yet to reply.

it is you that decries the value of vedic statements by saying "but that is from the bhagavata purana" or "that is from the bhagavad gita" - that is not the method how problems are ressolved in the vedas-

You have short memory, you keep on quoting from SB to 'establish' your favourite deity is the greatest. There are other puranas by same vyasa wherein the picture is not same.

it is ironic that you don't describe the SB as the preferred purana (BTW what do you mean that some purana is not the 'preferred' purana?), since it was the final last work of Vyasadeva that satisfied his despondency for not presenting vedic knowledge to his full satisfaction

SB looks a preferred purana for you. And continued to be so..:

SB 1.4.24: Thus the great sage Vyāsadeva, who is very kind to the ignorant masses, edited the Vedas so they might be assimilated by less intellectual men.

SB 1.4.25: Out of compassion, the great sage thought it wise that this would enable men to achieve the ultimate goal of life. Thus he compiled the great historical narration called the Mahābhārata for women, laborers and friends of the twice-born.

SB 1.4.26: O twice-born brāhmaṇas, still his mind was not satisfied, although he engaged himself in working for the total welfare of all people.

SB 1.4.27: Thus the sage, being dissatisfied at heart, at once began to reflect, because he knew the essence of religion, and he said within himself:

SB 1.4.28-29: I have, under strict disciplinary vows, unpretentiously worshiped the Vedas, the spiritual master and the altar of sacrifice. I have also abided by the rulings and have shown the import of disciplic succession through the explanation of the Mahābhārata, by which even women, śūdras and others [friends of the twice-born] can see the path of religion.

SB 1.4.30: I am feeling incomplete, though I myself am fully equipped with everything required by the Vedas.

SB 1.4.31: This may be because I did not specifically point out the devotional service of the Lord, which is dear both to perfect beings and to the infallible Lord.

BTW, Vyasadeva praising himself in 1.4.24 & 25 as the composition of SB also attributed to Vyasa ?!!

 

[lightgigantic]

You quoted what srila goswami quoted. I asked the verse numbers you are yet to reply.



You have short memory, you keep on quoting from SB to 'establish' your favourite deity is the greatest. There are other puranas by same vyasa wherein the picture is not same.



SB looks a preferred purana for you. And continued to be so..:



BTW, Vyasadeva praising himself in 1.4.24 & 25 as the composition of SB also attributed to Vyasa ?!!

I have never suggested that the skanda purana is outside of vedic literature - on the ocntrary you have sugested that the SB and BG are outside of vedic literature (if thats not the case please clarify your position).

My question is why do you minimize the SB and BG - true, I am maybe minimizing other vedic literature, but I have done so by quoting vedic literature and Lord Siva, and even an accredited commentator on the vedas (sripad sankacharya) who is not a vaisnava.
You seem to be minimizing the SB and BG according to your conditioned senses
(once again, if thats not the case, please clarify your position)

 

[everneo]

I have never suggested that the skanda purana is outside of vedic literature - on the ocntrary you have sugested that the SB and BG are outside of vedic literature (if thats not the case please clarify your position).

Why do you think that I have sugested SB and BG are outside vedic literature ? I have not discussed about BG in this thread so far. You will never find Vishnu is more glorified than Shiva in Shiva purana / Skanda Purana, nor more glorified than Shakti in Devi Bhagavatam. Similiarly you cannot find any other dieties more glorified than Vishnu in SB or Vishnu Purana.

My question is why do you minimize the SB and BG - true, I am maybe minimizing other vedic literature, but I have done so by quoting vedic literature and Lord Siva, and even an accredited commentator on the vedas (sripad sankacharya) who is not a vaisnava.

As i already told you, in puranas praising Vishnu, you can only find other deities also praising Vishnu. Sankaracharya's comments were on BG - which does not clash with his advaita philosophy or with his devotion to his favourite deity Shiva. His famous works are dedicated to Shiva, Shakti, Lakshmi, Saraswati, Skanda also.

You seem to be minimizing the SB and BG according to your conditioned senses
(once again, if thats not the case, please clarify your position)

No question of minimizing / maximizing. My conditioned senses telling me to be sensible in assessing scriptures. That is what the Jagat Guru Sri Krishna emphasizes : be balanced.

 

[lightgigantic]

Why do you think that I have sugested SB and BG are outside vedic literature ? I have not discussed about BG in this thread so far. You will never find Vishnu is more glorified than Shiva in Shiva purana / Skanda Purana, nor more glorified than Shakti in Devi Bhagavatam. Similiarly you cannot find any other dieties more glorified than Vishnu in SB or Vishnu Purana.

this is simply not true

Skanda Purana Reva-khanda
"O Lord Janardana, unwavering devotional service to You is the
same as liberation. O Lord Visnu, O Lord Hari, Your devotees are
already liberated."

Skanda Purana Prabhasa-khanda and the Linga Purana
"By scrutinizingly reviewing all the revealed scriptures and judging
them again and again, it is now concluded that Lord Narayana is the
Supreme Absolute Truth and thus He alone should be worshipped."

Skanda Purana
"When performed by they who have no devotion for Lord Visnu,
the pious activities described in the Sruti and Smrti bring results that
torture the body, results like the sins of prostitutes."

Skanda Purana
"Sacred Vrindavana is ruled by Lord Hari, taken shelter of by Vrinda-devi, and served by Brahma, Siva, and the demigods."

Skanda Purana
"Neither a devotee of Surya, a devotee of Siva, a devotee of
Brahma, a devotee of Sakti, nor a devotee of any other demigod is equal
to a devotee of Visnu."

Skanda Purana
"O Lord Hari, You alone are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If Brahma, Siva, and the demigods cannot accomplish something, then only You can accomplish it."

In the Skanda Puräna, Lord Siva tells Kärttikeya:
"The statements of the Siva scriptures should be accepted only when they agree with the Visnu scriptures. Lord Visnu is the only Supreme Lord, and knowledge of Him is the path to liberation.
That is the conclusion of all the scriptures. Any other conclusions are meant only to bewilder the people."

Skanda Purana
"Lord Hari is the only supreme controller. He is only the creator, maintainer, and destroyer of the worlds. Anyone else who may seem to be a creator, maintainer, or destroyer is only a wooden puppet in His hands.


skanda purana
Lord Visnu is completely aloof from the influence of the material
energy. He is eternal, imperishable, unbreakable, undefeatable, and
undecaying. He appears in this world and enjoys pastimes with His
devotees. He pretends to be an ordinary human being, and in this role
He may sometimes appear to be bound with ropes, or to bleed when
wounded. Although these activities bewilder the demons, the liberated
souls do not become bewildered. They always understand the actual
nature of the Lord

Prabhasa Khanda (of the Skanda Purana):

"O Best of the Bhrgus, the name of Krsna is the sweetest of the sweet,, the most auspicious, the choicest fruit of the creeper of all the Vedas, of the nature of pure consciousness. If sung but once, whether with devotion or with contempt, the name of Krsna will transport a mere mortal to the other shore."
while you can easily find verses in vedic literature that glorify demigods and the service of demigods, you can never find verses that declare such things to be superior to visnu and the service of visnu

As i already told you, in puranas praising Vishnu, you can only find other deities also praising Vishnu. Sankaracharya's comments were on BG - which does not clash with his advaita philosophy or with his devotion to his favourite deity Shiva. His famous works are dedicated to Shiva, Shakti, Lakshmi, Saraswati, Skanda also.

(here is an interesting quote regarding the SB) Skanda Purana, Prabhasa Khanda (Sk.P.2/39-42):

"That is to be known as the Bhagavata which, basing itself on the Gayatri, describes dharma in all its fullness, and which narrates the slaying of the asura Vrtra. And that is known in the world as the Bhagavata, which
has its origin in tales concerning the gods and men who live in the sarasvata kalpa. Whosoever will make a copy of this Bhagavata and offer it away, mounted on a throne of gold on the full moon day of Bhadra month, will attain the supreme goal. This purana is said to contain eighteen thousand
(verses)."
(And these same line are found in the Agni Purana as well.)

another one about the SB

Skanda Purana:
(Sk.P., Visnu Khanda 16/40,42,44,331)

"If the Bhagavata is not kept in one's house in the Kali Yuga, of what avail are collections of other scriptures by the hundreds and thousands? How can he be considered a Vaisnava who, in the Kali Yuga, does not keep the Bhagavata in his house? Even if he is a brahmana, he is lower than an
outcaste. O Narada, O Sage, wherever the Bhagavata is found in the Kali Yuga, there Hari goes together with all the demigods. O Muni, that pious soul who daily recites a verse from the Bhagavata reaps the fruits of the eighteen Puranas."

so the skanda purana establishes that in the current age there is no need to study any other scripture than the SB to understand the highest truth

No question of minimizing / maximizing. My conditioned senses telling me to be sensible in assessing scriptures. That is what the Jagat Guru Sri Krishna emphasizes : be balanced.

actually this is what Krishna emphasizes

BG 9.34: Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, become My devotee, offer obeisances to Me and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me.

and says the same thing in virtually identical sanskrit again
BG 18.65: Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.

and the conclusion being

BG 18.66: Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear.

the reason being

BG 7.14: This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it.

 

[everneo]

this is simply not true

Skanda Purana Reva-khanda
"O Lord Janardana, unwavering devotional service to You is the
same as liberation. O Lord Visnu, O Lord Hari, Your devotees are
already liberated."

Where this compares with other deities ?

Skanda Purana Prabhasa-khanda and the Linga Purana
"By scrutinizingly reviewing all the revealed scriptures and judging
them again and again, it is now concluded that Lord Narayana is the
Supreme Absolute Truth and thus He alone should be worshipped."

This is a repeat. You had already quoted earlier, but not to be found in Skanda/Linga Purana. I had asked the verse numbers.

Skanda Purana
"When performed by they who have no devotion for Lord Visnu,
the pious activities described in the Sruti and Smrti bring results that
torture the body, results like the sins of prostitutes."

Where this compares with other deities ?

Skanda Purana
"Sacred Vrindavana is ruled by Lord Hari, taken shelter of by Vrinda-devi, and served by Brahma, Siva, and the demigods."

Skanda Purana
"Neither a devotee of Surya, a devotee of Siva, a devotee of
Brahma, a devotee of Sakti, nor a devotee of any other demigod is equal
to a devotee of Visnu."

Skanda Purana
"O Lord Hari, You alone are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If Brahma, Siva, and the demigods cannot accomplish something, then only You can accomplish it."

In the Skanda Puräna, Lord Siva tells Kärttikeya:
"The statements of the Siva scriptures should be accepted only when they agree with the Visnu scriptures. Lord Visnu is the only Supreme Lord, and knowledge of Him is the path to liberation.
That is the conclusion of all the scriptures. Any other conclusions are meant only to bewilder the people."

Skanda Purana
"Lord Hari is the only supreme controller. He is only the creator, maintainer, and destroyer of the worlds. Anyone else who may seem to be a creator, maintainer, or destroyer is only a wooden puppet in His hands.

Verse numbers please. More than 18000 stanzas of Skanda Purana make it very difficult to locate the quoted verses, if they are there.

skanda purana
Lord Visnu is completely aloof from the influence of the material
energy. He is eternal, imperishable, unbreakable, undefeatable, and
undecaying. He appears in this world and enjoys pastimes with His
devotees. He pretends to be an ordinary human being, and in this role
He may sometimes appear to be bound with ropes, or to bleed when
wounded. Although these activities bewilder the demons, the liberated
souls do not become bewildered. They always understand the actual
nature of the Lord

Prabhasa Khanda (of the Skanda Purana):

"O Best of the Bhrgus, the name of Krsna is the sweetest of the sweet,, the most auspicious, the choicest fruit of the creeper of all the Vedas, of the nature of pure consciousness. If sung but once, whether with devotion or with contempt, the name of Krsna will transport a mere mortal to the other shore."

Again, no comparision with other deities.

while you can easily find verses in vedic literature that glorify demigods and the service of demigods, you can never find verses that declare such things to be superior to visnu and the service of visnu

Read them, LG.

(here is an interesting quote regarding the SB) Skanda Purana, Prabhasa Khanda (Sk.P.2/39-42):

"That is to be known as the Bhagavata which, basing itself on the Gayatri, describes dharma in all its fullness, and which narrates the slaying of the asura Vrtra. And that is known in the world as the Bhagavata, which
has its origin in tales concerning the gods and men who live in the sarasvata kalpa. Whosoever will make a copy of this Bhagavata and offer it away, mounted on a throne of gold on the full moon day of Bhadra month, will attain the supreme goal. This purana is said to contain eighteen thousand
(verses)."
(And these same line are found in the Agni Purana as well.)

another one about the SB

Skanda Purana:
(Sk.P., Visnu Khanda 16/40,42,44,331)

"If the Bhagavata is not kept in one's house in the Kali Yuga, of what avail are collections of other scriptures by the hundreds and thousands? How can he be considered a Vaisnava who, in the Kali Yuga, does not keep the Bhagavata in his house? Even if he is a brahmana, he is lower than an
outcaste. O Narada, O Sage, wherever the Bhagavata is found in the Kali Yuga, there Hari goes together with all the demigods. O Muni, that pious soul who daily recites a verse from the Bhagavata reaps the fruits of the eighteen Puranas."

so the skanda purana establishes that in the current age there is no need to study any other scripture than the SB to understand the highest truth

Skanda purana praises SB and that SB brings fruits of reading other puranas by reciting the SB verse. Fine complementary. But where it does it establish that there is no need to study any other scripture (including BG) than the SB to understand the highest truth ??

actually this is what Krishna emphasizes

BG 9.34: Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, become My devotee, offer obeisances to Me and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me.

and says the same thing in virtually identical sanskrit again
BG 18.65: Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.

and the conclusion being

BG 18.66: Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear.

the reason being

BG 7.14: This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it.

Complete surrender to the deity is a pre-requisite for focus, dedication and severing/crossing bonds.

 

[lightgigantic]

“
Skanda Purana Reva-khanda
"O Lord Janardana, unwavering devotional service to You is the
same as liberation. O Lord Visnu, O Lord Hari, Your devotees are
already liberated."
”
Where this compares with other deities ?

it establishes the superiority of worship of visnu

“
Skanda Purana Prabhasa-khanda and the Linga Purana
"By scrutinizingly reviewing all the revealed scriptures and judging
them again and again, it is now concluded that Lord Narayana is the
Supreme Absolute Truth and thus He alone should be worshipped."
”
This is a repeat. You had already quoted earlier, but not to be found in Skanda/Linga Purana. I had asked the verse numbers.

I gave the khanda sections - if you cannot find them I guess you are only pretending to be familiar with the skanda purana (I don't have a version that has complete verse numbers)

“
Skanda Purana
"When performed by they who have no devotion for Lord Visnu,
the pious activities described in the Sruti and Smrti bring results that
torture the body, results like the sins of prostitutes."
”
Where this compares with other deities ?

its establishing which deities are the most worshippable

“
Skanda Purana
"Sacred Vrindavana is ruled by Lord Hari, taken shelter of by Vrinda-devi, and served by Brahma, Siva, and the demigods."

Skanda Purana
"Neither a devotee of Surya, a devotee of Siva, a devotee of
Brahma, a devotee of Sakti, nor a devotee of any other demigod is equal
to a devotee of Visnu."

Skanda Purana
"O Lord Hari, You alone are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If Brahma, Siva, and the demigods cannot accomplish something, then only You can accomplish it."

In the Skanda Puräna, Lord Siva tells Kärttikeya:
"The statements of the Siva scriptures should be accepted only when they agree with the Visnu scriptures. Lord Visnu is the only Supreme Lord, and knowledge of Him is the path to liberation.
That is the conclusion of all the scriptures. Any other conclusions are meant only to bewilder the people."

Skanda Purana
"Lord Hari is the only supreme controller. He is only the creator, maintainer, and destroyer of the worlds. Anyone else who may seem to be a creator, maintainer, or destroyer is only a wooden puppet in His hands.

”
Verse numbers please. More than 18000 stanzas of Skanda Purana make it very difficult to locate the quoted verses, if they are there.

when was the last time you read the skanda purana? Actually it doesn'e have 18 000 slokas - it has 81 000

“
skanda purana
Lord Visnu is completely aloof from the influence of the material
energy. He is eternal, imperishable, unbreakable, undefeatable, and
undecaying. He appears in this world and enjoys pastimes with His
devotees. He pretends to be an ordinary human being, and in this role
He may sometimes appear to be bound with ropes, or to bleed when
wounded. Although these activities bewilder the demons, the liberated
souls do not become bewildered. They always understand the actual
nature of the Lord

Prabhasa Khanda (of the Skanda Purana):

"O Best of the Bhrgus, the name of Krsna is the sweetest of the sweet,, the most auspicious, the choicest fruit of the creeper of all the Vedas, of the nature of pure consciousness. If sung but once, whether with devotion or with contempt, the name of Krsna will transport a mere mortal to the other shore."
”
Again, no comparision with other deities.

it establishes the unique position of visnu and addresses your earlier claim about the mundane nature of krishna's appearance (since you were not prepeared to give any credibility to claims made in the srimad bhagavatam)

“
while you can easily find verses in vedic literature that glorify demigods and the service of demigods, you can never find verses that declare such things to be superior to visnu and the service of visnu
”
Read them, LG.

you get all antsy because I can not provide the exact verse numbers of texts that appear in the skanda purana while maintaining that somewhere in the vedas there are verses that clearly establish the benefits of worshipping a demigod/being a devotee of a demigod as greater than visnu/being a devotee of visnu - I could find many such verses in the SB and BG that meet these demands, instead I have met your demands and located them in the skanda purana-
Are there any verses in the SB or BG that clearly establish the superiority of demigod worship over worship of visnu?


“
(here is an interesting quote regarding the SB) Skanda Purana, Prabhasa Khanda (Sk.P.2/39-42):

"That is to be known as the Bhagavata which, basing itself on the Gayatri, describes dharma in all its fullness, and which narrates the slaying of the asura Vrtra. And that is known in the world as the Bhagavata, which
has its origin in tales concerning the gods and men who live in the sarasvata kalpa. Whosoever will make a copy of this Bhagavata and offer it away, mounted on a throne of gold on the full moon day of Bhadra month, will attain the supreme goal. This purana is said to contain eighteen thousand
(verses)."
(And these same line are found in the Agni Purana as well.)

another one about the SB

Skanda Purana:
(Sk.P., Visnu Khanda 16/40,42,44,331)

"If the Bhagavata is not kept in one's house in the Kali Yuga, of what avail are collections of other scriptures by the hundreds and thousands? How can he be considered a Vaisnava who, in the Kali Yuga, does not keep the Bhagavata in his house? Even if he is a brahmana, he is lower than an
outcaste. O Narada, O Sage, wherever the Bhagavata is found in the Kali Yuga, there Hari goes together with all the demigods. O Muni, that pious soul who daily recites a verse from the Bhagavata reaps the fruits of the eighteen Puranas."

so the skanda purana establishes that in the current age there is no need to study any other scripture than the SB to understand the highest truth
”

Skanda purana praises SB and that SB brings fruits of reading other puranas by reciting the SB verse. Fine complementary. But where it does it establish that there is no need to study any other scripture (including BG) than the SB to understand the highest truth ??

well its in the skanda purana - do you still hold the skanda purana as authoratative?

BG concludes on the point of 18.66 sarva dharma partiyajna (Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear.)
Sb begins on the point of surrendering to Krsna

SB 1.1.1: O my Lord, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, son of Vasudeva, O all-pervading Personality of Godhead, I offer my respectful obeisances unto You. I meditate upon Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa because He is the Absolute Truth and the primeval cause of all causes of the creation, sustenance and destruction of the manifested universes. He is directly and indirectly conscious of all manifestations, and He is independent because there is no other cause beyond Him. It is He only who first imparted the Vedic knowledge unto the heart of Brahmājī, the original living being. By Him even the great sages and demigods are placed into illusion, as one is bewildered by the illusory representations of water seen in fire, or land seen on water. Only because of Him do the material universes, temporarily manifested by the reactions of the three modes of nature, appear factual, although they are unreal. I therefore meditate upon Him, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, who is eternally existent in the transcendental abode, which is forever free from the illusory representations of the material world. I meditate upon Him, for He is the Absolute Truth.

with the next verse clearly establishing it is not about cheating religious principles (dharmaḥ — religiosity; projjhita — completely rejected; kaitavaḥ — covered by fruitive intention; atra — herein; paramaḥ — the highest; nirmatsarāṇām — of the one-hundred-percent pure in heart)

“
actually this is what Krishna emphasizes

BG 9.34: Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, become My devotee, offer obeisances to Me and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me.

and says the same thing in virtually identical sanskrit again
BG 18.65: Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.

and the conclusion being

BG 18.66: Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear.

the reason being

BG 7.14: This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it.
”
Complete surrender to the deity is a pre-requisite for focus, dedication and severing/crossing bonds.

he doesn't say "to the deity" or "to the demigods"
(krishna establishes earlier that such practices are for the alpa-medhasa.. less intelligent)

BG 7.22: Endowed with such a faith, he endeavors to worship a particular demigod and obtains his desires. But in actuality these benefits are bestowed by Me alone.

BG 7.23: Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet.

instead he says "to me"

9.34

man-manā bhava mad-bhakto

mad-yājī māḿ namaskuru

mām evaiṣyasi yuktvaivam

ātmānaḿ mat-parāyaṇaḥ

Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, become My devotee, offer obeisances to Me and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me.

18.65

man-manā bhava mad-bhakto

mad-yājī māḿ namaskuru

mām evaiṣyasi satyaḿ te

pratijāne priyo 'si me

Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.

18.66

sarva-dharmān parityajya

mām ekaḿ śaraṇaḿ vraja

Abandon all varieties of religion and surrender unto Me

the reason Sri Krsna establishes the importance of Himeslf over other deities is that one's destination is determined by whom one worships

BG 9.25: Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship the ancestors go to the ancestors; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; and those who worship Me will live with Me.

and as with many important points in the gita, krishna says it more than once

BG 8.5: And whoever, at the end of his life, quits his body, remembering Me alone, at once attains My nature. Of this there is no doubt.

BG 8.6: Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, O son of Kuntī, that state he will attain without fail.

BG 8.7: Therefore, Arjuna, you should always think of Me in the form of Kṛṣṇa and at the same time carry out your prescribed duty of fighting. With your activities dedicated to Me and your mind and intelligence fixed on Me, you will attain Me without doubt.

BG 8.8: He who meditates on Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, his mind constantly engaged in remembering Me, undeviated from the path, he, O Pārtha, is sure to reach Me.

and just in case you raise it, the abode of krishna and th e abode of the demigods are completely different

BG 8.16: From the highest planet (Lord brahma's planet) in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again.

BG 10.12-13: Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the ultimate abode, the purest, the Absolute Truth. You are the eternal, transcendental, original person, the unborn, the greatest. All the great sages such as Nārada, Asita, Devala and Vyāsa confirm this truth about You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me.

BG 4.9: One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.

There are very good reasons for the statements in the the vedas, including the skanda purana, for declaring the superiority of Visnu and the devotee of Visnu over that of demigods and the worship of demigods (superior in the sense that a worshipper of Visnu is stabilized on a more satisfactory level of spiritual performance)- but of course demigod worship tends to be more popular because most people can only function with a life in the pursuit of their material desires

Here are some links about the puranas you may be interested to read

the standard of valid knowledge

These things are not my opinions - they are conclusive statements from the vedas

 

[everneo]

“
Skanda Purana Reva-khanda
"O Lord Janardana, unwavering devotional service to You is the
same as liberation. O Lord Visnu, O Lord Hari, Your devotees are
already liberated."
”

Where this compares with other deities ?

it establishes the superiority of worship of visnu

It gives the assurance and benefits of worshipping vishnu - like other diety worship, not a declaration of the superiority of worship of vishnu over the worship of other deities.

"Skanda Purana Prabhasa-khanda and the Linga Purana
"By scrutinizingly reviewing all the revealed scriptures and judging
them again and again, it is now concluded that Lord Narayana is the
Supreme Absolute Truth and thus He alone should be worshipped."
”

This is a repeat. You had already quoted earlier, but not to be found in Skanda/Linga Purana. I had asked the verse numbers.

I gave the khanda sections - if you cannot find them I guess you are only pretending to be familiar with the skanda purana (I don't have a version that has complete verse numbers)

You lifted them up from some others' quote. Not to be found in Skanda/Linga puranas.

“
Skanda Purana
"When performed by they who have no devotion for Lord Visnu,
the pious activities described in the Sruti and Smrti bring results that
torture the body, results like the sins of prostitutes."
”

Where this compares with other deities ?

its establishing which deities are the most worshippable

It is exhorts the bigots to worship vishnu too, not to have enimity with vishnu. On the other hand your conclusion shows you a bigot.

when was the last time you read the skanda purana? Actually it doesn'e have 18 000 slokas - it has 81 000

Yes it is 81000, waiting to catch typo errors?! better be careful with such errors.

“
skanda purana
Lord Visnu is completely aloof from the influence of the material
energy. He is eternal, imperishable, unbreakable, undefeatable, and
undecaying. He appears in this world and enjoys pastimes with His
devotees. He pretends to be an ordinary human being, and in this role
He may sometimes appear to be bound with ropes, or to bleed when
wounded. Although these activities bewilder the demons, the liberated
souls do not become bewildered. They always understand the actual
nature of the Lord

Prabhasa Khanda (of the Skanda Purana):

"O Best of the Bhrgus, the name of Krsna is the sweetest of the sweet,, the most auspicious, the choicest fruit of the creeper of all the Vedas, of the nature of pure consciousness. If sung but once, whether with devotion or with contempt, the name of Krsna will transport a mere mortal to the other shore."
”

Again, no comparision with other deities.

it establishes the unique position of visnu and addresses your earlier claim about the mundane nature of krishna's appearance (since you were not prepeared to give any credibility to claims made in the srimad bhagavatam)

Does the unique position indicate superiority over Shiva, Shakti and in a way Narayana etc as you wish ?

“
while you can easily find verses in vedic literature that glorify demigods and the service of demigods, you can never find verses that declare such things to be superior to visnu and the service of visnu"

Read them, LG.

you get all antsy because I can not provide the exact verse numbers of texts that appear in the skanda purana while maintaining that somewhere in the vedas there are verses that clearly establish the benefits of worshipping a demigod/being a devotee of a demigod as greater than visnu/being a devotee of visnu - I could find many such verses in the SB and BG that meet these demands, instead I have met your demands and located them in the skanda purana- Are there any verses in the SB or BG that clearly establish the superiority of demigod worship over worship of visnu?

You have not established your claim that Vishnu worship is superior and other deities are demigods. All you have done is picking up convenient verses from other puranas than SB disgarding unconvenient verses in those puranas.

“
(here is an interesting quote regarding the SB) Skanda Purana, Prabhasa Khanda (Sk.P.2/39-42):

"That is to be known as the Bhagavata which, basing itself on the Gayatri, describes dharma in all its fullness, and which narrates the slaying of the asura Vrtra. And that is known in the world as the Bhagavata, which
has its origin in tales concerning the gods and men who live in the sarasvata kalpa. Whosoever will make a copy of this Bhagavata and offer it away, mounted on a throne of gold on the full moon day of Bhadra month, will attain the supreme goal. This purana is said to contain eighteen thousand
(verses)."
(And these same line are found in the Agni Purana as well.)

another one about the SB

Skanda Purana:
(Sk.P., Visnu Khanda 16/40,42,44,331)

"If the Bhagavata is not kept in one's house in the Kali Yuga, of what avail are collections of other scriptures by the hundreds and thousands? How can he be considered a Vaisnava who, in the Kali Yuga, does not keep the Bhagavata in his house? Even if he is a brahmana, he is lower than an
outcaste. O Narada, O Sage, wherever the Bhagavata is found in the Kali Yuga, there Hari goes together with all the demigods. O Muni, that pious soul who daily recites a verse from the Bhagavata reaps the fruits of the eighteen Puranas."

so the skanda purana establishes that in the current age there is no need to study any other scripture than the SB to understand the highest truth
”

Skanda purana praises SB and that SB brings fruits of reading other puranas by reciting the SB verse. Fine complementary. But where it does it establish that there is no need to study any other scripture (including BG) than the SB to understand the highest truth ??

well its in the skanda purana - do you still hold the skanda purana as authoratative?

So many other things are also there in Skanda purana, your selective quotes (orginal & picked up) in an attempt to show the superiority of vishnu worship over other so called 'demigods' worship is hardly an acceptance of other puranas as authoritative.

BG concludes on the point of 18.66 sarva dharma partiyajna (Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear.)
Sb begins on the point of surrendering to Krsna

SB 1.1.1: O my Lord, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, son of Vasudeva, O all-pervading Personality of Godhead, I offer my respectful obeisances unto You. I meditate upon Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa because He is the Absolute Truth and the primeval cause of all causes of the creation, sustenance and destruction of the manifested universes. He is directly and indirectly conscious of all manifestations, and He is independent because there is no other cause beyond Him. It is He only who first imparted the Vedic knowledge unto the heart of Brahmājī, the original living being. By Him even the great sages and demigods are placed into illusion, as one is bewildered by the illusory representations of water seen in fire, or land seen on water. Only because of Him do the material universes, temporarily manifested by the reactions of the three modes of nature, appear factual, although they are unreal. I therefore meditate upon Him, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, who is eternally existent in the transcendental abode, which is forever free from the illusory representations of the material world. I meditate upon Him, for He is the Absolute Truth.

with the next verse clearly establishing it is not about cheating religious principles (dharmaḥ — religiosity; projjhita — completely rejected; kaitavaḥ — covered by fruitive intention; atra — herein; paramaḥ — the highest; nirmatsarāṇām — of the one-hundred-percent pure in heart)

“
actually this is what Krishna emphasizes

BG 9.34: Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, become My devotee, offer obeisances to Me and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me.

and says the same thing in virtually identical sanskrit again
BG 18.65: Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.

and the conclusion being

BG 18.66: Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear.

the reason being

BG 7.14: This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it.
”

Complete surrender to the deity is a pre-requisite for focus, dedication and severing/crossing bonds.

he doesn't say "to the deity" or "to the demigods"
(krishna establishes earlier that such practices are for the alpa-medhasa.. less intelligent)

BG 7.22: Endowed with such a faith, he endeavors to worship a particular demigod and obtains his desires. But in actuality these benefits are bestowed by Me alone.

BG 7.23: Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet.

instead he says "to me"

9.34

man-manā bhava mad-bhakto

mad-yājī māḿ namaskuru

mām evaiṣyasi yuktvaivam

ātmānaḿ mat-parāyaṇaḥ

Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, become My devotee, offer obeisances to Me and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me.

18.65

man-manā bhava mad-bhakto

mad-yājī māḿ namaskuru

mām evaiṣyasi satyaḿ te

pratijāne priyo 'si me

Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.

18.66

sarva-dharmān parityajya

mām ekaḿ śaraṇaḿ vraja

Abandon all varieties of religion and surrender unto Me

the reason Sri Krsna establishes the importance of Himeslf over other deities is that one's destination is determined by whom one worships

BG 9.25: Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship the ancestors go to the ancestors; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; and those who worship Me will live with Me.

and as with many important points in the gita, krishna says it more than once

BG 8.5: And whoever, at the end of his life, quits his body, remembering Me alone, at once attains My nature. Of this there is no doubt.

BG 8.6: Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, O son of Kuntī, that state he will attain without fail.

BG 8.7: Therefore, Arjuna, you should always think of Me in the form of Kṛṣṇa and at the same time carry out your prescribed duty of fighting. With your activities dedicated to Me and your mind and intelligence fixed on Me, you will attain Me without doubt.

BG 8.8: He who meditates on Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, his mind constantly engaged in remembering Me, undeviated from the path, he, O Pārtha, is sure to reach Me.

and just in case you raise it, the abode of krishna and th e abode of the demigods are completely different

BG 8.16: From the highest planet (Lord brahma's planet) in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again.

BG 10.12-13: Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the ultimate abode, the purest, the Absolute Truth. You are the eternal, transcendental, original person, the unborn, the greatest. All the great sages such as Nārada, Asita, Devala and Vyāsa confirm this truth about You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me.

BG 4.9: One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.

There are very good reasons for the statements in the the vedas, including the skanda purana, for declaring the superiority of Visnu and the devotee of Visnu over that of demigods and the worship of demigods (superior in the sense that a worshipper of Visnu is stabilized on a more satisfactory level of spiritual performance)- but of course demigod worship tends to be more popular because most people can only function with a life in the pursuit of their material desires

Here are some links about the puranas you may be interested to read

the standard of valid knowledge

Did it not occur to you that Krishna demands absolute faith on him as a sole saviour for the sake of followers' dedication & focus ?!

These things are not my opinions - they are conclusive statements from the vedas

They are your opinions, you have the right to have personal opinions based on how you perceive what vedas tell. They are not absolute conclusions by vedas. If vedas conclude as you wish, only Vaishanism would have survived over centuries along with vedas, may be not. Vedas & upnishads are mostly secular in the sense that view equally all the manifestations (Vishnu, Shiva, Shakti etc) of Brahman, imho.

 

[Carcano]

Contrary to popular belief in the West, Hindu deities are not "individual gods", indicating a polytheistic faith. They are, rather, different representations of particular aspects of the one god, the source, known as Brahman.

Is this a later conception in the history of Indian spirtuality. or does it go right back to the earliest Vedas?

 

[Carcano]

On the reverse side of this ticket is a quote from Gandhi: "The Allah of Islam is the same as the God of Christians and the Ishwar of Hindus".

I'll bet the Hebrew prophets who created their jealous God in their literature would be stunned to hear this.

 

[S.A.M.]

Is this a later conception in the history of Indian spirtuality. or does it go right back to the earliest Vedas?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman