Hi guys... a question

Halcyon said:

One could point that first question right back at many of the proponents of so-called "psi." Interestingly enough, I had read much of the work you cited in the last year, though not because of this post. I had actually long forgotten about this post and suspect that I was in the middle of a couple of papers for school.

But since it was so kindly pointed out by another member of sciforums and bumped, I'm happy to discuss it.

The reason I say one could ask, "think much for yourself," of the "psi" proponent is that it seems typical that they're willing to mention figures in "psi" like Utts, Bem, Honorton, Rosenthal, Puthoff, etc. without really discussing the merits of their works or the specific points of their "proofs." That certainly isn't always the case and certainly not with you, Halcyon. It appears to be with regard to the post quoted above, but I can only assume that you planned on seeding the discussion and getting back to these points later after others have had the chance to read the links above.

But nearly all of the links above have their roots in the Ganzfeld procedure and meta-analyses, such as that conducted by Bem (1994). For those reading this thread who aren't familiar with the term meta-analysis, this is the process by which quantitative analysis is done by evaluating the results of several studies, sometimes allowing the researcher to create a larger data set with which to sample for more accurate statistics. If done well with studies that are consistent and clean from bias to begin with, the results can prove quite usable.

But if the process isn't carefully controlled and strictly filtered for bias, the results are just as easily skewed. Tiny factors in a meta-analysis can cause drastic changes in results. Much like firing a bullet at a distant target: if the aim is true, the bullet will be; if the aim is a millimeter off at the rifle, the result can be a meter at the target.

With regard to the links you posted above, at least half, if not more, are critical of the two main sources: the Utts paper and the Ganzfeld Procedure, which much of her work is based on apparently. If anything, the links you provided support the quote of mine that you include as a prologue to your post, specifically, "…attempts to measure the paranormal junk like telekinesis have always resulted in failure, refusal, or significant [lack of conclusion]."

Hyman noted the inconsistencies with the ganzfeld experiments that both Utts and Bem rely upon heavily for their meta-analyses. Hyman states (1991): "I was surprised to find that the ganzfeld experiments, widely heralded as the best examplar of a successful research program in parapsychology, were characterized by obvious possibilities for sensory leakage, inadequate randomization, over-analysis and other departures from parapsychology's own professed standards. One response was to argue that I had exaggerated the number of flaws. But even internal critics agreed that the rate of defects in the ganzfeld data base was too high." These comments are after the rejoinders of Honorton and the Utts paper's completion.

Indeed, Milton and Wiseman (1999) "present a meta-analysis of 30 ganzfeld ESP studies from 7 independent laboratories adhering to the same stringent methodological guidelines that C. Honorton followed. The studies failed to confirm his main effect of participants scoring above chance on the ESP task..." Milton and Wiseman concluded that the "ganzfeld technique does not at present offer a replicable method for producing ESP in the laboratory." In short, it was shown to be bunk at worst, inconclusive at best.

There is nothing in science that shows empirically that "psi" exists. Nor is there any sort of theory as to what would cause "psi" to work if it did exist. By theory, I am not talking in the colloquial sense where a "speculation" equals a "theory." I'm referring to a set of one or more hypotheses that have been tested.

The links you provided were, indeed, a "small taste of the scientific and peer reviewed literature out there on the subject," Halcyon, but none come close to being that which clearly demonstrate replicable and reliable methodologies of qualitative (opposed to quantitative) design, which prove any "psi" ability.

My last comment is with regard to one of Utts concluding remarks (1991) when she says, "research in parapsychology should receive more support from the scientific community [...]if ESP does exist, there is much to be lost by not doing process-oriented research..."

Science shouldn't waste it's time in such nonsense. It detracts from real work that can be accomplished in so many other, more valuable fields of research from genetics to neuroscience that piddling around with flash-cards checking whether or not someone can guess the card is a waste of not only time but money. If there were any substance to "psi" poppycock such as "remote viewing" and "telekinesis," there would be someone capable of clearly demonstrating it and providing a tangible point of beginning true research. But parlor tricks and cold-reading techniques aren't useful.

References:

Bem, Daryl J. and Charles Honorton (1994). Does Psi Exist? Psychological Bulletin, 115(1), 4-18.

Hyman, Ray (1991). In response to the paper Replication and Meta-Analysis in Parapsychology by Jessica Utts. Statistical Science," 6 (4), 389-392.

Milton, J. and R.Wiseman (1999). Does psi exist? Lack of replication of an anomalous process of information transfer. Psychological Bulletin, 125(4), 387-391.

Utts, Jessica (1994). Replication And Meta-Analysis In Parapsychology. Statistical Science, 6(4), 363-403.
 
I've got my search engine going in the background looking for those papers. I'm pretty sure I have all of Utts' stuff, and I may have Hyman's lying around. There wouldn't happen to be online sources available would there? I want to read these before going on.

And hey, I realize that I've been an antagonistic twit in the past. You could have been quite a bit more of the same and have been justified for it by my actions. I admit that I was surprised to see someone in the fray who had really done their homework. It's all very respectable, is what I guess I'm trying to say.
 
SkinWalker said:
Indeed, Milton and Wiseman (1999) "present a meta-analysis of 30 ganzfeld ESP studies from 7 independent laboratories adhering to the same stringent methodological guidelines that C. Honorton followed. The studies failed to confirm his main effect of participants scoring above chance on the ESP task..." Milton and Wiseman concluded that the "ganzfeld technique does not at present offer a replicable method for producing ESP in the laboratory." In short, it was shown to be bunk at worst, inconclusive at best.
Milton and Wiseman were also culpable of being "biased and seriously flawed, both in the methods they had used, and in the way they had selected the data." They had "chosen to omit some recent and highly successful experiments." Milton later published a paper independant of Wiseman that included all the experiments conducted to date, and admitted that the results were actually statistically significant.

Should Ganzfeld Research Continue To Be Crucial In The Search For A Replicable Psi Effect? Part I. Discussion Paper And Introductionto An Electronic-Mail Discussion
Journal of Parapsychology, The, Dec, 1999 by Julie Milton


I'd like to mention that sceptics who demand extremely high rates of repeatability simply do not understand the statistics of of replication. In a faithful replication of a previously successful study, using exactly the same number of subjects, you will obtain another successful result only half(50%) of the time. No experiment involving human subjects turns out the exact same way twice. This is the state of affairs in soft science (psychology, sociology, etc). They rely more on statistical analyses of results than repeatablity due to the fact that the "noise" in living systems tends to be huge.

It is often assumed by researchers in the hard sciences that the degree of research consistency is much greater in their fields than in the soft sciences because they usually deal with extremely stable, precise measurements. And to most people, common sense would support this. It might come as a surprise to those people to find out that even in particle physics, the most rigorous, well funded, and hardest of the hard sciences has replication rates comparable to those found in the soft pliable world of behavioral sciences. When empirical replication rates were examined between soft and hard science, 45% of the reviews in both domains exhibited statistaically significant disagreements when no studies were omitted from the results.

I only bring that up because I feel your standards for replication and observable effects do not comply with those in fields of applicable sciences.

SkinWalker said:
There is nothing in science that shows empirically that "psi" exists.
And nothing that shows that you, I, these computers, the ground we walk on or the air we breath even exists. Empirical science is incapable of proving the existance of ANYTHING. I was sure that you were aware of this. The function of science is to provide evidence for the existance of something, it is incapable of doing anything more.

SkinWalker said:
Nor is there any sort of theory as to what would cause "psi" to work if it did exist. By theory, I am not talking in the colloquial sense where a "speculation" equals a "theory." I'm referring to a set of one or more hypotheses that have been tested.

I have done a LOT of studying in this field, and I have come accross a few theories that fit the bill here. To note, they do not have to have been tested like you say in order to still be a valid theory. And even the absence of a theory does not preclude existance of observable effects. How many episodes in the history of the world has there been an observable effect without a hypothesis to explain it away?

About those theories I mentioned, I will do some looking and try to bring a few to the table for consideration.

References:
Milton 1999

Ertel, Storm 2001

D. Radin 1997, The scientific truth of psychic phenomena

Hedges 1987
 
James R said:
Soulcry:

Don't feel too bad. Nobody in the world has ever demonstrated an ability to move anything by the power of their mind under controlled conditions.

There are lots of people who <b>say</b> they can do such things, but talk is cheap.

People move their own bowels in just such a fashion. Thus, your conclusion is incomplete or premature.
 
Every topic about psychics always leads to debates on its existence... I just wish everybody could stop debating and just sit down and use the things they can find on many websites that teach you psi and psychic abilities and just try some of the simple stuff. I was extremely skeptic when my friend said psi was real and he had felt it then I sat down and tried some of the stuff and felt it to. I still don't know what to believe in but for now I think it would be psi. It could just be some weird stuff my body is telling me when I feel it, or it could be psi. I have no idea. Instead of just saying things are impossible and just look for tests and experiments just sit down and make your own test. Once you see for yourself what it really is then make your judgement. I don't know what to believe in yet, and i am still skeptic, but what people have called impossible before was actually possible. I'll just leave people with this- have an open mind, don't trust every single test for psi, and see for yourself if it works or not.
 
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