Now HERE's a funny little conversation from a Christian message board between a person who identifies as gay, and someone who identifies as straight. This person's response is so stereotypical of this "christian" mindset that I couldn't pass it up!
rhellis:
LeTypeFrancais, I would like to ask you some questions: What was your relationship with your father like when you were growing up? What is your mother like? Were you ever molested by a man? Did your father or some other strong male figure affirm your masculinity at any point in your youth?
LeTypeFrancais: My relationship with my dad was always good. Never abused or anything. But I grew closer to my mother since she was the homemaker and my dad worked. As a child, I learned that I couldn't be as atheletic as the other boys because of conditions I was born with. No, I was never molested by an adult.
As for affirming my masculinity, I'm a man in every sense of the word and attracted to masculine men. I'm not effeminate if that is your assumption nor am I attracted to feminine men. I think like most men, I may have feminine qualities such as being well-mannered, groomed well, a taste for creative arts over sports, but I am still a man and act such. I love technological gadgets, video games, etc. like many men. Although gay, you couldn't pay me to dress in drag while many "drag queens" are married men.
rhellis: Okay, that's a common answer and an honest one.
I too prefer the arts to sports, but I'm not gay. I do think that having a creative, flexible mind could make a person more likely to become gay.
Your dad was a working man, and you didn't have a lot of space in his world so you gravitated to your mother's world. You are caught in a loop-- searching for the masculinity that you were denied as a boy and adolescent but paradoxically being driven further from it because of the place where you are searching for it. In many cultures, there are official rituals at which masculinity is bestowed on young men. Apparently masculinity is something we get from our fathers or other male figures. We certainly don't get it from our moms. It is something that is passed from man to man.
If a young man finds himself not being accepted or not excelling in the man's world, he may go the female's world where he may excel-- some of the best hair dressers and flower arrangers are gay men. It's not a hollow stereotype.
The contradiction of being gay but wanting a masculine man (essentially straight) shows what the real problem is. The desire of almost every gay guy I've ever known, by nature, is in fact a straight guy. My best friend from the time I was 15 to 17 was gay. I did not know it at the time. He was pathetic in athletics and such, and although I did love poetry and art stuff, I was still a guy's guy-- rode motorcycles and chopped wood and all that too. He withdrew from everyone around the time I was 17 and moved to another city. Then when I was 23, he came to see me. He was acting awkward, and I knew something heavy was on his mind, but I didn't know what. He didn't tell me, but a few days later I got a letter from him explaining that he was gay and had been for quite some time. He said he had feelings for me, which made me almost physically ill-- don't know how many times he and I were out hiking together and I peed right in front of him without thinking twice. I actually felt violated-- that's probably why this is a hot button issue for me.
So, what you need is to find your place in the man's world, and you can do it. You don't need the sexual love of a man. You need the approval of a man's man. That's what you are searching for. Or at least that's what I think. You identified with your mom, and all you need is some male identity.
Another question (graphic but important): How do you respond to the female body? Does a naked woman do anything at all for you?
LeTypeFrancais: I could tell this is a hot button issue for you because although maybe not to the others, it is obvious to me. When you say "they" as in those people, your slight paranoia that this thread will become a dating service for gay men, etc. It told me that this issue hits someone inside you and I respect that. But if you liked this gentleman as a friend and you knew him in all ways except that he was gay, that shouldn't make you feel violated just because of that one fact you came to know. If he was a pervert or strange before you knew he was gay then I can see the frustration but if he was just a typical guy, it would be the same as if you hung out with a girl and came to know that she had a crush on you. If he sincerely had feelings for you, it wasn't just about sex. He obviously liked qualities in you that went beyond the physical. I wouldn't fret about it. Sometimes when we don't understand something or are afraid of it, we can make it seem bigger than it really is. We often fear what people are thinking of us but if we realized how seldom they did, it wouldn't bother us. The same with that guy. You may have all these graphic images in your head about what he was thinking when most of it might not have ever entered his mind. Gay people are who comfortable and stable people are not predators looking for converts or trying to hold straight men as captives.
As for the naked woman, I can't say I am turned on in the least bit. I think women like Vanessa Williams, Reba McEntire, and Catherine Zeta-Jones are very beautiful women but their physique doesn't turn me on in a sexual way.
The fascinating thing about homosexuality is how incredibly natural it feels to the gay person and how awkward heterosexuality feels to them. I was so inclined by my homosexual nature that I couldn't even fake being straight in high school. The idea of taking a girl to a dance made me cringe because not only does the female physique not attract me but I cannot relate to a woman on an intimate level. But I'm proud of the fact that I never pretended to be straight and deceived women. I couldn't feel happy with myself if I pretended to love a woman on that level when in my heart, it just isn't there. I happen to know a man approaching 40 that attends a Pentecostal Church every week and lives with a woman and their adoptive daughter but there is no sexual relations or intimacy in the marriage. It is a sham marriage because he's gay, she knows it, and they put on airs. I think that is a very sad situation for all people involved.
Typical?
rhellis:
LeTypeFrancais, I would like to ask you some questions: What was your relationship with your father like when you were growing up? What is your mother like? Were you ever molested by a man? Did your father or some other strong male figure affirm your masculinity at any point in your youth?
LeTypeFrancais: My relationship with my dad was always good. Never abused or anything. But I grew closer to my mother since she was the homemaker and my dad worked. As a child, I learned that I couldn't be as atheletic as the other boys because of conditions I was born with. No, I was never molested by an adult.
As for affirming my masculinity, I'm a man in every sense of the word and attracted to masculine men. I'm not effeminate if that is your assumption nor am I attracted to feminine men. I think like most men, I may have feminine qualities such as being well-mannered, groomed well, a taste for creative arts over sports, but I am still a man and act such. I love technological gadgets, video games, etc. like many men. Although gay, you couldn't pay me to dress in drag while many "drag queens" are married men.
rhellis: Okay, that's a common answer and an honest one.
I too prefer the arts to sports, but I'm not gay. I do think that having a creative, flexible mind could make a person more likely to become gay.
Your dad was a working man, and you didn't have a lot of space in his world so you gravitated to your mother's world. You are caught in a loop-- searching for the masculinity that you were denied as a boy and adolescent but paradoxically being driven further from it because of the place where you are searching for it. In many cultures, there are official rituals at which masculinity is bestowed on young men. Apparently masculinity is something we get from our fathers or other male figures. We certainly don't get it from our moms. It is something that is passed from man to man.
If a young man finds himself not being accepted or not excelling in the man's world, he may go the female's world where he may excel-- some of the best hair dressers and flower arrangers are gay men. It's not a hollow stereotype.
The contradiction of being gay but wanting a masculine man (essentially straight) shows what the real problem is. The desire of almost every gay guy I've ever known, by nature, is in fact a straight guy. My best friend from the time I was 15 to 17 was gay. I did not know it at the time. He was pathetic in athletics and such, and although I did love poetry and art stuff, I was still a guy's guy-- rode motorcycles and chopped wood and all that too. He withdrew from everyone around the time I was 17 and moved to another city. Then when I was 23, he came to see me. He was acting awkward, and I knew something heavy was on his mind, but I didn't know what. He didn't tell me, but a few days later I got a letter from him explaining that he was gay and had been for quite some time. He said he had feelings for me, which made me almost physically ill-- don't know how many times he and I were out hiking together and I peed right in front of him without thinking twice. I actually felt violated-- that's probably why this is a hot button issue for me.
So, what you need is to find your place in the man's world, and you can do it. You don't need the sexual love of a man. You need the approval of a man's man. That's what you are searching for. Or at least that's what I think. You identified with your mom, and all you need is some male identity.
Another question (graphic but important): How do you respond to the female body? Does a naked woman do anything at all for you?
LeTypeFrancais: I could tell this is a hot button issue for you because although maybe not to the others, it is obvious to me. When you say "they" as in those people, your slight paranoia that this thread will become a dating service for gay men, etc. It told me that this issue hits someone inside you and I respect that. But if you liked this gentleman as a friend and you knew him in all ways except that he was gay, that shouldn't make you feel violated just because of that one fact you came to know. If he was a pervert or strange before you knew he was gay then I can see the frustration but if he was just a typical guy, it would be the same as if you hung out with a girl and came to know that she had a crush on you. If he sincerely had feelings for you, it wasn't just about sex. He obviously liked qualities in you that went beyond the physical. I wouldn't fret about it. Sometimes when we don't understand something or are afraid of it, we can make it seem bigger than it really is. We often fear what people are thinking of us but if we realized how seldom they did, it wouldn't bother us. The same with that guy. You may have all these graphic images in your head about what he was thinking when most of it might not have ever entered his mind. Gay people are who comfortable and stable people are not predators looking for converts or trying to hold straight men as captives.
As for the naked woman, I can't say I am turned on in the least bit. I think women like Vanessa Williams, Reba McEntire, and Catherine Zeta-Jones are very beautiful women but their physique doesn't turn me on in a sexual way.
The fascinating thing about homosexuality is how incredibly natural it feels to the gay person and how awkward heterosexuality feels to them. I was so inclined by my homosexual nature that I couldn't even fake being straight in high school. The idea of taking a girl to a dance made me cringe because not only does the female physique not attract me but I cannot relate to a woman on an intimate level. But I'm proud of the fact that I never pretended to be straight and deceived women. I couldn't feel happy with myself if I pretended to love a woman on that level when in my heart, it just isn't there. I happen to know a man approaching 40 that attends a Pentecostal Church every week and lives with a woman and their adoptive daughter but there is no sexual relations or intimacy in the marriage. It is a sham marriage because he's gay, she knows it, and they put on airs. I think that is a very sad situation for all people involved.
Typical?