Heterosexuality is unnatural

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Buddha1 said:
Did you not read Giambatista's experiences --- and how he noticed that the man that was drawn to him acted as if there was no such thing, even when he was all alone --- as if there was an unseen eye watching his every move?
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I don't think even YOU read them in their entirety! :p

Nonetheless, yes, this was true. I did it too. Not to the extent that he did, but at least when it came time for me to get to the bottom of things and state how I felt for him, he denied knowing anything about it. Like reacting out of anger at my "girlfriend". She was just a friend, but that one time he reacted very obviously in a defensive manner. When I tried to ask him months later WHY he had done that, he very quickly responded that he DIDN'T KNOW WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT. I pressed him, and then he REMEMBERED doing it, but didn't remember why! Yeah, f***** right! It was akin to him sweeping shards of glass under a rug in full view, and then denying that there was anything under the rug.

I'm sure this must be foreign to most people. I don't give this example to imply that all men are this way. They certainly aren't as far as I can tell.

But this illustrates exactly the extent of pressures on men to CONFORM. Even I, who was technically "out" as far as accepting my sexuality (that I like other guys), at this time abandoned my usual logic and tried to play the stupid game. Somewhat. If he had asked me whether or not I was gay, I would have at least given several very good hints. I've been asked many times, and usually I'm coy with people!

But the fear of being rejected and being the only one was too much for me to handle, so I tried to cover up by playing the game. The normal game. Of course I'm like everyone else. It may be the other people who are queer, but not me. Not us. Never.

Like I said, a few people knew I was "gay" if I felt like telling them, but the fear and the pressure around this guy was like being pushed back into the closet, to use a silly but appropriate cliche. Like it was contagious.

AND THAT IS THE POINT!

When I look back on it sometimes, I feel a little foolish. I should have known better. I'm not a flaming queen. I'm queer as in WEIRD, but you're generally not going to know unless you ask me. And generally you'll get an awkward but somewhat coherent answer from me. Point is, up to that point I hadn't been vocal about it by any means, but not ashamed in any way. I was basically comfortable with my sexuality, but I liked to skirt the issue if people tried to get the truth out of me. I guess I personally though it was funnier to drop hints and be a little enigmatic. Some of us love mystery!

Then, when I met this guy, because I highly suspected that he was interested in me but at the same time totally unsure, all these defenses went up that I really hadn't experienced in a long time. I suddenly became frightened of being the ONLY one. I suddenly had this GREAT fear of being found out and having to realize and deal with the fact that YES, I was alone.

He consumed my thoughts all the time. Many of these thoughts were driven by fear. I liked him so much, but I was so afraid that it was all in vain and that I would somehow see or hear something about him that would totally crush me. That was one of the most trying periods of my life. I was constantly wanting to be near him (like at work) but at the same time I wanted to ignore him. And he appeared to act that way too. It was almost like looking into a mirror.

One of us would ask what the other was doing, and then the other would feign disinterest. Like having the chance to be alone, and then DELIBERATELY pulling the plug to make it look like he or I had better things to do. No. When I cut myself, it doesn't hurt, it just looks that way...

All of this because the pressure to be and act "normal" and the FEAR of being the only one with these feelings HELD A GUN to my head (and goddammit, my HEART!) and forced me to do and say things when I REALLY wanted to do the opposite. I COULD NOT WIN. I WAS CONSTANTLY BEING DEFEATED BY PRESSURE AND FEAR.

No one has ever both ATTRACTED and DISTURBED me so much at the same time. Never. "I love you, but I have to hate you. It can't be any other way. It has to be THIS way."

So much of my time and emotions were wasted in this kind of stagnant trench warfare. Little progress was ever made. I eventually waved the white flag and still I got shot!

In the end, I tried to break through and I told him way more than I ever got from him. He played that tired old role to the end. I'm sure someone gave him a medal for valour. HA HA HA! :mad:

There were other guys that I felt maybe were attracted to me. Although this was the most extreme, it seemed to follow a general template/framework of this type of behaviour, so I can see where maybe this was occurring in other places, but not to this extent.

I haven't met very many new people lately, so it's not surprising that I don't see more examples of this. I'm kind of a loner to begin with.
 
ONE MORE THING...

I felt that I should add this in about my sexual preference.

Now I've read people theorize that heterosexuality is the perfected sexual identity, not just because of procreative, "generative" abilities, but because man and woman are opposites but complementary to each other. They just fit together perfectly. Look up complementarity and sexuality, you'll find it!

I don't like opposites.

Sometime into puberty (actually, from the beginning), I remember finding my own genitals somewhat fascinating. And why not? Kids start experimenting with masturbation, the genitals grow hair (as well as other parts of the body) and sexual feelings intensify. How could a person NOT notice any of that, and/or get aroused by it? Those early pubescent years I could get an erection for no reason at all, let alone from any little sexual image that popped into my head!

I once in awhile would get a sneak peek at "adult" literature when my friends would break into their older brother's secret stash when he was away in the Navy!!! Ah, those good old days! Makes me laugh at what a forbidden rush it was! :p

Playboys, Penthouse, the usual suspects, as well as an occasional obscure publication with a little more "graphic" depictions of those certain activities.

During this time, I was readily turned on by images of nude women. Sometimes I almost felt like I was about to ejaculate just staring at those pictures! Which was kind of frightening at the time! :eek:

During this time, I also, when I would catch a glimpse, was turned on by images of nude men. There weren't too many to be had, since these were mainly "heterosexual" publications. But seeing any of these nude male bodies was just as big a turn on, possibly even more so.

Around the beginning of eighth grade, I remember this one magazine my brother had borrowed from one of our friends. A certain "article" had both a woman and a man in it. I remember the man as young (early 20s) blond, and fairly attractive. It was at that point that I suddenly realized how much more attractive I found the man.

The woman just looked completely foreign to me. It was unfamiliar. The feminine body, and their ideas of beauty, involves alot of additions and subtractions to their image that men don't have to deal with. The hair is generally more done up. THE MAKEUP. They just miraculously don't have any leg hair or armpit hair, their skin is smooth and silky, and the pubic hair is trimmed to perfection. Oh, and I have had the pleasure (or displeasure!) of seeing the Howard Stern Show quite a few times, and he always has porn stars on there. I would say around 50% of them have some type of breast enhancement.

MEN ARE BROUGHT UP ON THIS ARTIFICIAL IMAGE!!!

It was at that time that I realised how uninteresting that woman was. Sure, maybe she wasn't the BEST looking woman, but the man was so much more familiar, and SO MUCH MORE NATURAL. The woman just did NOT appeal to me, and STILL does not, because of how fake that type of beauty is.

Now, I hear self-righteous types, especially self-righteous religious types, talking about how heterosexuality is superior because of this attraction to the "other" (opposite gender in an esoteric sense :rolleyes: ) and that this is the embodiment of God's love for mankind, and that attraction and love for the same gender, or the "self", is naturally SELFISH, because it instead of embracing it's so-called "better half" or missing piece as illustrated with the term gender-complementarity, it seeks to gratify itself within itself. And of course, that's selfish. According to THIS doctrine.

But to me, I CANNOT see any logical reason why I should be so attracted to this body that is, like I said above, foreign to me. And, if what Buddha1 and alot of my own friends and experiences tell me, the woman's MIND is foreign to men as well. At least superficially, like the image of the perfect woman in body.

Why should I REJECT my own image, one that I live with and am ultimately more familiar with, and EMBRACE the image of the female body and regard it as superior in beauty???
WHY??? How on Earth does that make sense? Obviously it happens, but when men hold their noses in the air and say "Of course it makes PERFECT sense, because they ARE better!" what great law is this? Why is it SO IMPOSSIBLE to imagine that there would be any exceptions to it, and if there are, then those particular people are OBVIOUSLY wrong in the heads, because who wouldn't find Pamela Anderson and her fake breasts the HOTTEST GODDAMN THING EVER CREATED?!?!

I decided to put this here, because I've been thinking about this for a long time, and it fits right in with this topic of WHETHER there IS widespread male-male attraction, and WHY.

My reasons for that I just gave above for my attraction to one and the rejection of the other I feel is just as valid, if not MORE valid than any excuses for heterosexual attractions. With as different as both the bodies and apparent psychologies are, it makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER to me that I should be falling head over heels for the opposite sex. The only thing they can say is either it's biology, or it's social expectations/upbringing. It's probably both, to be honest.

But I can't think of any logical reason why I SHOULDN'T find my own gender at least moderately attractive. So when I see studies showing that at least 1 in 5 guys is in some capacity attracted to other guys (or has been at one point) and the number maybe be quite a bit higher, I can only say that it sounds EXTREMELY plausible. That it's probably more truth than untruth.

Maybe what I've said here has little bearing on this subject? I guess time MAY tell?!?!
 
Giambattista said:
ONE MORE THING...


Now I've read people theorize that heterosexuality is the perfected sexual identity, not just because of procreative, "generative" abilities, but because man and woman are opposites but complementary to each other. They just fit together perfectly. Look up complementarity and sexuality, you'll find it!
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If that isn't the most fatigued of the cliches!
 
Giambattista said:
If that isn't the most fatigued of the cliches!
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Plus and minus. Annihilate each other. Antimatter. Great, Giambattista! Another incurable hellbound faggot!
 
HERE IS SOMETHING THAT I FEEL IS VERY RELEVANT TO THIS DISCUSSION
for better or worse....


What it Means to be Straight

By Crispin Sartwell

Like a lot of the straight guys I know, I am a homophobe.

I had that realization last week when a guy named Jake gave a presentation to a meeting I was in. I disliked him on sight, though he seemed perfectly nice. And I had the realization that I thought he was defectively gendered. He didn't walk right; he didn't sit right; he didn't talk right.

I am not a fan of Jerry Falwell and Jesse Helms. I don't reject homosexuality on Biblical or in fact any other grounds. But I have a visceral reaction of hostility to men I perceive as gay.

Homosexuality seems like a performance to me, whereas heterosexual masculinity seems natural.

Now sometimes I suppose it's fair to say that homosexuality really *is* a performance. There's no doubt that Greenwich Village drag queens are at play in the fields of gender; that they're very purposefully trying to compromise the categories of male and female. And perhaps Jake, who seemed very androgynous (though in fact I don't know his sexual orientation) was consciously messing around with gender too.
But the funny thing is, heterosexual masculinity is also a performance. My ways of walking and talking and dressing and sitting were things I actually remember choosing and learning in my adolescence. At the time when my own sexual identity was fluid, I consciously chose and performed heterosexuality.
RuPaul is a performer of gender. But you know what? So is, let us say, Bruce Springsteen. The "plain" clothes (jeans and a white shirt) the studiously unkempt hair, the stage swagger: these are public performances of heterosexuality, no more "true" or "natural" than RuPaul's. In fact, the staging of heterosexual masculinity is extremely elaborate and takes a long time to learn. It is extremely elaborate performance that is supposed to be effortlessly natural.
One is simply supposed to be heterosexual and masculine, effortlessly, by nature. But the repertoire of gestures and inflections that mark one as masculine are things that must be learned. Male effeminacy is threatening because it indicates that masculinity is optional, that it is a public performance.
The attack on homosexuality has often taken the form of saying that heterosexuality is natural and homosexuality is unnatural. Heterosexuality is what mammals do in order to reproduce; homosexuality is just a distortion or a pathological state of the reproductive impulse. But in fact sexuality has many functions in mammalian life, including various kinds of partnership and bonding.

As a philosopher, I have long argued that there is absolutely no defensible distinction between the natural and the artificial. Everything human beings do is perfectly natural: we can no more violate the laws of nature than can a squirrel. Our minds are natural objects. And, by the way, everything we do is also artificial, in the sense that it is something human beings do.
Springsteen's outfits are no less artificial than RuPaul's: Springsteen also communicates an identity by his manner of dress. I say this as seriously as possible: natural and artificial are the same.
And that's how I try to reason myself out of homophobia. That's how I stopped hating Jake. But it's a constant task, a constant discipline, because homophobia is built into the structure of heterosexual masculinity.
 
I remember constantly getting little "tips" on what was manly and what was girly throughout my childhood and adolescence. Sounds somewhat similar to what this man is describing. Those tips were actually just parts of this whole script. LA DEE DA!!!
 
Buddha1 said:
Bisexualtiy amongst young women rising


It wouldn't surprise Kat Fowler, a 27 year old art student who dates both woemn and men, if men were less likely to talk about their experiences. "There's a certain higher level of discrimination (for men). It's a lot easier for women to have these kinds of experiences and be open about it because it's more accepted" said Fowler, who attends the University of Florida.
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It doesn't surprise Giambattista that someone would admit that lesbianism is more acceptable than two men frolicking in the nude! I've known that for quite some time. Maybe that's why the male-centric Old Testament doesn't have a prohibition against two women having sex: because men with more than one wife probably watched em going at it!
 
I was the first to be alone with myself naked. I was the first to touch my maturing body. I was the first jerk me off! I think maybe I'm entitled to say that I like my own body!

And all of that WITHOUT the aid of the opposite sex. Imagine that! Hurrah!
 
Giambattista said:
I thoroughly enjoyed writing it. :p :m: :eek:
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That smiley face is me in a happy drunken state a few months ago. Then the marijuana leaf represents a single hit of pot taken for the first time in several months. The last face is me, a few minutes after the pot. And I was that way for at least an hour. The black shapeshifting dog really wanted me to know that this IS hell, and we amuse those lizards to no end! Shh! They're feeding even now!
 
Huwy said:
What so your last thread on this exact same issue failed, so you've started a new one? Sounds like you've done that before. That's pathetic.
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Oh really! did you or one of your gang prove any of my contentions or the evidences that I have given (yet) or my analysis of them wrong!

Stop living in a fool's world and grow up!
 
The Marquis said:
"We do not see things as they are. We see them as we are."- Anais Nin
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See. so try seeing things in a larger perspective, look behind men's masks and if you are presented with evidences don't brush them off!
 
Quantum Quack said:
sorry I couldn't resist.
In all these threads on The contention that heterosexuality is unatural etc, all I see is a form of reverse homophobia.

Buddha1, not only do you defame one of the worlds greatest philosophers with your handle you demonstrate a extreme need to justify your own sexual preferences.................
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Oh, another attempt to digress from the topic and bring it into your sick terminologies in order to misrepresent the truth. Well it won't work with me. Thank you! This world is not divided between you meterosexuals. The majority is out of it. For more info click here.
Please do resist such useless comments to waste my time and yours. Let's get down to discussing evidences. Don't run away from the truth!

Quantum Quack said:
Buddha1, not only do you defame one of the worlds greatest philosophers with your handle you demonstrate a extreme need to justify your own sexual preferences.
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Cut that out! I have given evidences and in order to prove that I'm biased and not speaking the truth you just have to prove that the evidences are wrong. It's as simple as that.

You are aghast at your traditional power base being challenged. You don't want to compete with the men on an equal footing because you always had it easy -- given to you on a platter. You are used to feel superior and you don't like being challenged. You are used to the truth about masculinity being suppressed. Quit your insecurity, and come to the field like a man --- and have a logical

I'll only be using evidences that are scientifically proven or are common knowledge or are empirical evidences. It's all a very scientific discussion. No room for biases or accusations or counter accusations.
 
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"Common knowledge" is a dangerous ground from the critical thinking point of view.
There is no reason for common knowledge to be true.
 
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