Carcano
Valued Senior Member
Does that mean its ok for say, a muslim to murder you...as long as they *perceive* thats its ethically right to do so???
"Hello, is there anybody in there...?" A call to pagans, pantheists, and assorted...
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Well, as this is a thread about Wicca/pantheism, I'd have to say, No. It doesn't.
In fact the question is a non-sequitur.
Carcano
Valued Senior Member
Well, I dont see how the Wiccan Rede is consistant with relativism.
In relativism, there is no north star, a fixed point by which all can navigate...no absolute principle which is the same for everyone.
The wiccan principle of 'evil' or 'wrong' does have a fixed definition....the will to harm.
That and the notion of an invisible karmic fate has more to do with Hinduism and Buddhism than any pre-christian pagan tradition in europe.
Wicca was dreamed up sometime in the fifties and sixties by hippies who came in contact with english translations from eastern mysticism.
Druids? Vikings? We know little of their lore and ways. Heinrich Himmler tried to dig up those old traditions in the 1930s, in an attempt to replace hebrew derived religion in Germany. They actually had a SS naming ceremony to replace christian baptism!
It's not completely relative, but it is more relative than other ethics systems out there. It doesn't make prohibitions on various personal tastes or ideas, or anything; it only advises the follower to not will harm on others or self. However, even that is dependent on the circumstances on the incident, and on if greater harm is done by inaction.
The route that causes the least harm is best.
Keep in mind, though, Wicca is based on Ceremonial Magic and folk mythology of the Indo-European peoples, a broad ethno-linguistic group to which Hindi people belong, along with the Hindu religion. In many ways, Hinduism is the closest we have to Proto-Indo-European religion.
Not really. You seem to be badly misinformed on Wicca's history.
Wicca derives generally from the Ceremonial Magic movement of the late 19th century, and Margaret Murray's theories on pre-Bronze age Europe, although much of Margaret Murray's work was discredited. Gerald Gardner became initiated into a small group of Witchcraft practitioners in the late 1930s, who believed in duotheism and thought of themselves as revivalists of a Pan-Indo-European religion, called the New Forest Coven. He was heavily influenced by this group, and developed his ideas throughout the 1940s, during which time he gained a position of high standing in that Coven.
Effectively, "Wicca", and its traditional beliefs can be traced to the 1947 publication of Gardner's High Magic's Power, which was essentially a codification and publication of the New Forest Coven's beliefs. The traditional date for Wicca's beginning is 1954, with the publication of Witchcraft Today. Wicca spread even faster after Gardner's death in 1964, and grew to encompass half of the neopagan community in Britain and America.
However, Wicca's beliefs were far and away from the Hippie movement of the mid-1960s. The only connection between Hippies and Wicca stem from their shared environmentalism. Wicca's theological and spiritual beliefs were influenced by the New Age movement, of which the Hippie movement was a part, but they weren't shaped definitively by it. Wicca's basic, underlying beliefs can be traced directly to the New Forest Coven and Gerald Gardner in the 1950s.
EDIT: Sorry, in my haste to type, I forget a few key letters and suffixes. Sorry for any confusion.
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Carcano
Valued Senior Member
I agree...and most of the new agers were influenced by eastern mysticism. Either that or the ancient hermetic traditions of the classical world.
How are the New Forest Coven's beliefs different from your own?
Yes. I'm not denying that. I'm just saying that Wicca was influenced minimally by the New Age movement, and its base is more firmly rooted in the Ceremonial Magic movement of the late 1800s and early 1900s.
Hard to discern. Generally, Gardnerian and Alexandrian Wicca (collectively called British Traditional Wicca) are very secretive, exclusive traditions, who require rites of initiation and ordination before a devotee can be considered a Wiccan and a practitioner of Witchcraft.
But, a growing number of Wiccans, especially in North America, are eclectics, and a significant amount of Wiccans in the US particularly are solitary practitioners, meaning that they are self-dedicating rather than being ordained by another Wiccan, yet still are considered Wiccans. These numbers have grown, because Wicca is moving away from the Traditionalist practices of ordination and secrecy, a process which has been ongoing since the 1970s. Eclectics take more syncretic approaches than British Traditional Wicca's rigid duotheism, while still retaining the core parts of Wiccan philosophy.
My personal views differ from Gardnerian Wicca in that I don't believe in the myth of a centuries-old Witch-Cult existing in secret, I don't believe in the necessity of initiation, and I don't believe in the literal existence of two solid deistic beings. To me, the God and Goddess are immanent in nature, expressed and manifested in all matter, but they aren't necessarily conscious, transcendent gods.
Lets take the Vikings first. Icelandic sagas and other texts paint a good picture, as far as they go. As for viking beliefs and mythos, It is not like the people of the "north" just disappeared there ancestors survived till today and with them a great deal of the oral traditions also made the trip through the ages. A great deal is known of there life and ways.
Druids. The DRUID is painted as a nature type mystic and as such the modern world knows little of them. The modern world misses a lot of things, try looking to the not so modern world. Just like the descendants of the "VIKINGS" the people of Ireland know there history well.
The Druid as a tree hugger is a poor way to describe a sect of people like this. There is the learned class that is made up of judges, Scholars/ historians {Bards}, physicians, diviners and Ceremonial leaders. Again the traditions were past on via oral traditions to there descendants.
The beliefs of these two cultures have survived the ravages of time, they just have changed.
As Hapsburg is doing such a good job of giving you the info you seem to need, I shan't add any.
However, I do feel the need to point out to you that you appear to be misunderstood as to the point of this thread.
It more of a networking, info sharing place.
If you wish to debate these issues, I suggest you start your own thread.
Now if you want clarification on these, that's cool. But as your questions seem rather combative, I doubt this is your goal.
Put more succinctly, Please, either make a useful, helpful contribution, OR :STFU:.
Carcano
Valued Senior Member
I believe its tremendously helpful to clarify points on Wicca's origins and principles.
Specifically, where does wicca's notions of karmic fate or cause and effect come from? I believe they come directly from eastern mysticism.
Is the wiccan rede a relativist or absolutist principle? I believe it can be demonstrated as absolutist.
Is wicca an ancient tradition whose modern incarnation is merely an extension? I would argue NO, it was dreamed up in the 50s and 60s by drawing on a huge number of influences gleaned from literature.
Carcano
Valued Senior Member
Understanding that gives you a big advantage. And I dont want you to get the impression that I'm against Wicca.
For anyone to be for or against Wicca there would have to be some definite shape to it...instead of the amorphous collection of vague mystical ideas that folks are just making up as they go along....in a perpetual state of schism and fragmentation right from the get go.
Similar to the early days of Christianity...except theres no orthodoxy in place with the secular power to force an idealogical unification.
Theres basically three ways a person decides what to believe:
1. Believe something because you like it.
2. Believe something because your parents told you...and you like your parents.
3. Believe something because you have experienced compelling evidence.
Obviously, only the third has any basic integrity.
Again, this is not the place for debate, per se. And while you do seem to have changed the tone of your posts, if you wish to debate the merits/flaws of Wicca, et al, please, I implore you to start your own thread.
Tell me, do you consider your self Wiccan or pagan or pantheist, etc?
I started this thread specifically as a meeting ground of like minded souls/folks.
I wanted a place where, while there could be disagreement to some extent, there isn't an adversarial challenge to the atmosphere.
Dig?
Carcano
Valued Senior Member
Its not surprising that you dont want an atmosphere of inquiry into what is true vs. false as this is not in keeping with the Wicca approach...where a general free-for-all upholds that anything is true, as long as it calls itself Wicca.
If you wanted to have a private discussion where only your own views are aired I would suggest that a public forum is a bad choice.
That's not what she's saying. She's saying, simply, that if you want a thread based on debating the merits of Wicca, it'd be best to start another thread solely for that purpose. Because starting such a debate in this thread would distract from this particular thread's stated aim: to serve as a convening point for pagans, pantheists, deists, etc. on this forum to talk and discuss in a friendly, not-debatatory setting.Carcano said:
By all means, start your own thread debating the merits of the Wiccan religion. That would actually be a good idea, and a nice departure from the Atheist v.s Christianity debates that lace this subforum.
Particularly, Hindu mysticism. This does not invalidate it's use in a Western religion, as Western civilisation was moulded upon the template of Indo-European culture, of which the Hindis are a part. Additionally, you often find some form of karmic force in most other Indo-European paleopagan religions, whether in the form of Fate, or some other all-reaching force.
A hazy area in the middle. It's basic statement is objective, based around countering the will to harm others. However, the decision is relative to the circumstance, and the ethical standpoints outside of their position on the aforementioned "will to harm" is left up the practitioner.
Try 1940s and 1950s. And, no, it's not an ancient religion as a few prominent Wiccans might claim. However, the majority of Wiccans don't believe in the old Murrayite theories of an ancient witch-cult; most accept their history as a late mesopagan religion, and their current reality as a neopagan religion.
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Silver Ravenwolf, IMO, is an idiot, a liar, and a bigot. She espouses outdated ideas on Wicca's origins based on Margaret Murray's writings from the 1920s, which have been proven false decades ago. The majority of Wiccans disagree soundly with Murray's ideas and Ravenwolf's teachings.Hold on amigo...weren't you the one trashing a certain Wiccan author Silver Ravenwolf (or some such) on another Wiccan thread????
For further reading on Silver, and why she is not a good base to judge general Wiccan beliefs, I suggest this article: http://wicca.timerift.net/ravenwolf.shtml
Which, while not written by me, I agree with quite a bit.
Of course. We're just saying that particular threads have particular subjects and purposes. This one does not include debating. A better idea would be start a fresh thread for the sole purpose of debating Wicca.
Carcano
Valued Senior Member
There is no such thing as a thread where you only get to hear views you agree with...its just that simple.
Again, that's not at all what we are saying. Present your views, discuss them, talk about them- all that is fine.
But arguing and debating the views of another in comparison to one's own is not the purpose of this thread. To do so would be to get off-subject, and would be rude. Please, create another thread for that purpose- I would gladly debate, in the appropriate thread for it.
But arguing and debating the views of another in comparison to one's own is not the purpose of this thread. To do so would be to get off-subject, and would be rude. Please, create another thread for that purpose- I would gladly debate, in the appropriate thread for it.
Carcano
Valued Senior Member