path said:Absolutely
What make you absolutely sure?
Jan Ardena.
Hell for Nonbelievers
- Thread starter mis-t-highs
- Start date
What make you absolutely sure?
Jan Ardena.
l33t h4x0r said:
Heaven and hell exist here.
The trick is not to see hell or heaven as a place, but a condition of life.
Jan Ardena.
Jan Ardena said:
There are so many things that it would be difficult to list them all. The vast amount of contradictory messages and images of god in the bible the god of love and forgiveness, and the god who commanded all the amalikites to be massacred. A jealous god?! what, he is god what is he jealous of why does he have a reason to be jealous. I just don't have the time to go into it all now suffice it to say I am indeed unshakably certain after 12 years of catholic education
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path said:There are so many things that it would be difficult to list them all. The vast amount of contradictory messages and images of god in the bible the god of love and forgiveness, and the god who commanded all the amalikites to be massacred. A jealous god?! what, he is god what is he jealous of why does he have a reason to be jealous. I just don't have the time to go into it all now suffice it to say I am indeed unshakably certain after 12 years of catholic education
This does not explain why scriptures are mythology.
Jan Ardena.
Two friends died at the same day. One went up and one went down. After a couple of weeks they spoke to each other on an interspiritualistic telephone.
- How is it with you up there, Fred?
- It sucks, we have to work 12 hours a day, lousy food and no vacation. How it in in hell?
- Its great! Free booze, lot of chicks, only have to work 2 hours a day and 12 weeks vacation! How come its so sucky up there in heaven? Its supposed to be a nice place!?
- No people...
- How is it with you up there, Fred?
- It sucks, we have to work 12 hours a day, lousy food and no vacation. How it in in hell?
- Its great! Free booze, lot of chicks, only have to work 2 hours a day and 12 weeks vacation! How come its so sucky up there in heaven? Its supposed to be a nice place!?
- No people...
path said:
Well give me one reason why you are absolutely sure the scriptures are mythology.
Jan Ardena.
DJ Erock said:
Gyaaaah! You philistine! Do you really think that Disney made "All Dogs go to Heaven"? It was MGM, Don Bluth dosn't write/direct for disney, and you MUST have picked up on the definately darker than Disney vibe in the movie!
On that note, a lot of folks here in the US say Disney is hellbound itself, so we will have wholesome childrens entertainment in hell as well.
it seem like the xian devil, belsebub, lucifer, 666, whatever is nothing bot the elder pagan gods. Priests made a huge effort to exterminate the competing religions everywhere they went, and a good way of doing this was a) slay the unfaithful b) proclaim the pagan gods are evil.
Baal was not evil according to scriptures. Astarte was not. Nor was Marduk, Ishtar, El etc.
Baal was not evil according to scriptures. Astarte was not. Nor was Marduk, Ishtar, El etc.
"Hell" is a term coi9ned by the christians, and is a demonization by them of the idea of the Underworld.
The earth religious pagan peoples respected the Earth and Nature, and its spirits. so there was ne fear of under earth. in fact many of their goddess and gods ruled there.
as soon as christians got a political hold they called all those pagan gods 'devils', and they denigrated the Horned God of old into their "Devil"......
thus psychologically they split off their instinctual organismic feelings from their intellectual pining for a place above the Earth, or for a transformed 'purified' earth will all the 'nasty' sex and fangs gone
The earth religious pagan peoples respected the Earth and Nature, and its spirits. so there was ne fear of under earth. in fact many of their goddess and gods ruled there.
as soon as christians got a political hold they called all those pagan gods 'devils', and they denigrated the Horned God of old into their "Devil"......
thus psychologically they split off their instinctual organismic feelings from their intellectual pining for a place above the Earth, or for a transformed 'purified' earth will all the 'nasty' sex and fangs gone
Jan Ardena said:
You ask the wrong question.
We should be asking, "why are you sure the scriptures aren't mythology?".
But that's a question any "good faithful" will avoid at all costs, because any answer to that will inevitably be based on blind faith and/or ad hominem.
And we all know how credible both are.
Thus, it would be good strategy for any strongly religious person to avoid the questions.
Of course, this doesn't always work with adherents of Zen ... but then, Zen makes so much more sense than some Manichaeistic social opium that claims the existence of heaven and hell.
(I mean, it all depends on how you define 'heaven' and 'hell'. Really. If you define 'heaven' and 'hell' as they are commonly described in fundamentalistic Christian doctrine, then they don't exist.)
I now return you all to your daily doses of booster shots to the ego-feeding illusion of intellectual invincibility. Since human sanity depends on such, no?
Xianity might be the worst thing that happend to this planet. Maybe we should go back to the old ways or just give it up. If Jesus ever walked this earth he is probably mourning about the evolution of his original ideas...
Interesting enough, the main reason for the roman empire to swap to xianity was because it showed an impressive organisation that already repressed its followers. It offered an out-of-the-box strictly hierarkic order that was "authorized by God", perfect for a decaying Roman empire. This is probably also the main reason for the slaying of all, maybe more sane, xian directions, like gnosis etc.
We got "hell on earth" around 2000 years ago.. I wonder who had the 666 in his forehead...
Interesting enough, the main reason for the roman empire to swap to xianity was because it showed an impressive organisation that already repressed its followers. It offered an out-of-the-box strictly hierarkic order that was "authorized by God", perfect for a decaying Roman empire. This is probably also the main reason for the slaying of all, maybe more sane, xian directions, like gnosis etc.
We got "hell on earth" around 2000 years ago.. I wonder who had the 666 in his forehead...
Naomi,
If and when i make the claim that they "aren't mythology", i will be happy to answer.
How do you know?
Have you recieved such answers to that question?
Right now i'm concerned with the claim made by Path.
Are you certain that the scriptures are mythology?
Can you give a reason as to why they are?
"Manichaeistic", do you mean mechanistic?
My concern is not with religions or the various conflicting interpretations of religions, but with the scripture.
Beautiful women are used as a mechanism to control the masses, but they are seperate to the mechanism. Why can't you see religion in the same way?
It appears you have not given enough thought to the subject of Heaven and Hell.
What were saying about adhominem?
Subtle, but clear.
Jan Ardena.
If and when i make the claim that they "aren't mythology", i will be happy to answer.
How do you know?
Have you recieved such answers to that question?
Right now i'm concerned with the claim made by Path.
Are you certain that the scriptures are mythology?
Can you give a reason as to why they are?
"Manichaeistic", do you mean mechanistic?
My concern is not with religions or the various conflicting interpretations of religions, but with the scripture.
Beautiful women are used as a mechanism to control the masses, but they are seperate to the mechanism. Why can't you see religion in the same way?
It appears you have not given enough thought to the subject of Heaven and Hell.
What were saying about adhominem?
Subtle, but clear.
Jan Ardena.
your talking scriptures....Bible scripture?
lets go to the beginnings of it. to the creation myth. the Tree of Good and Evil. the Warning not to disobey. the act of dis-obeying being punsihed by 'He-God'....then the curse and use getting thrown out of the Garden....then this idea of 'Original sin' gets fine-tuned by Augustine-Pauline christianity. and we are made to feel guilty about our bodies and thie needs, like ESPECIALLy sexuality, and this scripture has caused in us a schism between 'spirit' and 'Nature' which has 'evolved' to the post-religious secular concept of the "mind-body problem"
'Hell' and 'Heaven' are obviously related term-concepts to the idea of 'good' and 'evil as defined above in the creation myth
for the earth religious pagans there was no 'hell'. there was the underworld or otherworld. the Tree in pre-patriarchal mythicpoetry was the Centre which interelated the Deep, Mid, and Upper worlds. it was all one mysterious Web.
it was the dualstic Abrahamic religious doctrines who abstracted out a good and an evil and their respective heaven and hell
so then its perfect fot the elcted MALE writers of these dogmas isn't it. they can guilt and divide and rule the people, puls warning them that if they do not OBEY "God"--ie., THEIR male-dominative authority, then we will go to hell for everlasting torture.
this drvel could only have been invented by mean-arsed men. not ALL men. but mean-arsed men, yeah
lets go to the beginnings of it. to the creation myth. the Tree of Good and Evil. the Warning not to disobey. the act of dis-obeying being punsihed by 'He-God'....then the curse and use getting thrown out of the Garden....then this idea of 'Original sin' gets fine-tuned by Augustine-Pauline christianity. and we are made to feel guilty about our bodies and thie needs, like ESPECIALLy sexuality, and this scripture has caused in us a schism between 'spirit' and 'Nature' which has 'evolved' to the post-religious secular concept of the "mind-body problem"
'Hell' and 'Heaven' are obviously related term-concepts to the idea of 'good' and 'evil as defined above in the creation myth
for the earth religious pagans there was no 'hell'. there was the underworld or otherworld. the Tree in pre-patriarchal mythicpoetry was the Centre which interelated the Deep, Mid, and Upper worlds. it was all one mysterious Web.
it was the dualstic Abrahamic religious doctrines who abstracted out a good and an evil and their respective heaven and hell
so then its perfect fot the elcted MALE writers of these dogmas isn't it. they can guilt and divide and rule the people, puls warning them that if they do not OBEY "God"--ie., THEIR male-dominative authority, then we will go to hell for everlasting torture.
this drvel could only have been invented by mean-arsed men. not ALL men. but mean-arsed men, yeah
Leo Volont
Registered Senior Member
You make you Hell seem like a wonderful place. You should consider how much happiness in the World is the result of behaviors and especially the constraints of Godly People. Your Hell will be devoid of all these Moral influences.
I should think that in your Hell we would have an open and unapologetic contest for ultimate control and power. In such a contest for Control I would suppose that a necessary Power Play would be to imprison all rivals for Power. The Paranoia of Power would see a potential enemy in every new soul that drops through the Gate.
Also, understand that some fairly nasty Souls would arrive in Hell long before you would ever show up. They would have a power base already built up. You would descend into Hell unprotected and without alliance. Would not the Hitlers and Stalins of the Place through you into a Lake of Fire simply to intimidate you and show you who the bosses are?
Clowns like Voltaire would be made to dance for their dinner... to tell jokes to make the important brutes laugh, and then slapped in his face if the jokes aren't funny enough.
And you aren't even funny.
I should think that in your Hell we would have an open and unapologetic contest for ultimate control and power. In such a contest for Control I would suppose that a necessary Power Play would be to imprison all rivals for Power. The Paranoia of Power would see a potential enemy in every new soul that drops through the Gate.
Also, understand that some fairly nasty Souls would arrive in Hell long before you would ever show up. They would have a power base already built up. You would descend into Hell unprotected and without alliance. Would not the Hitlers and Stalins of the Place through you into a Lake of Fire simply to intimidate you and show you who the bosses are?
Clowns like Voltaire would be made to dance for their dinner... to tell jokes to make the important brutes laugh, and then slapped in his face if the jokes aren't funny enough.
And you aren't even funny.
GGG's!! Leo sounds like you've already been in hell, if you know so much of how it is!.
Hell and Heaven are two non-existent places made up to manipulate the ignorant massess. Hell whatever the church determines to be evil, Heaven for all those suckers that support "financially" the church and follow the "doctrines" of what ever denomination it may be to the letter like a mindless robot!.
Godless.
Hell and Heaven are two non-existent places made up to manipulate the ignorant massess. Hell whatever the church determines to be evil, Heaven for all those suckers that support "financially" the church and follow the "doctrines" of what ever denomination it may be to the letter like a mindless robot!.
Godless.
Leo Volont
Registered Senior Member
Godless said:
Can something exist in merely psychological terms?
A person can have Heavenly Dreams, Worldly Dreams, or Nightmares. Yes, there are no actual material 'places' involved, and yet we have three quite different experiences.
The trouble with being a Materialistic Atheist is that you would nullify all of your deeper psychological significances. We are far more than merely rational creatures... especially as you must deny that many of us are even 'rational'.
But certainly you must admit that there is Psychological Content that covers a wide Moral and Aesthetic range. For the Psychotic Individual where the Psychological Content which motivates him has risen up to Surface Consciousness, it is clear that distinctions can be made. And if these States of Mind are not Materially "Real", then the Psychologists would be pursuing an exercise in futility when they attempt to discern objective patterns and continuities. Yet they are able to discern patterns and continuities. At that level, Psychological Content is OBJECTIVE.
We have seen many cartoons depicting what Love is...
e.g Love is never having to say you are sorry.
I thought I might try my hand at Hell is...
Hell is always having to say you are sorry.
Hell is being told you are not worthy to live another day.
Hell is watching children be raped whilst you are a child yourself.
Hell is being raped.
Hell is being tortured.
Hell is having your children taken off you whilst the person snatching them sneers at your pain.
Hell is watching society and family structures crumble around you.
Hell is feeling powerless to stop evil from happening.
Hell is an absence of love.
God is love. Jesus overcame the powers of Hell on the Cross. The powers of Hell were unleashed fully upon Him which is why He cried "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me." As I said, Hell is an absense of love and God is love. But even in all that blackness, all that pain. all that suffering, all that injustice, there was still a light. That Light was in Jesus and that Light was Jesus, for inside of Jesus' heart there was love for man and there was love for God - "Father forgive them because they do not know what it is they are doing"
Because God accepted Jesus as a pure sacrifice, we are washed clean by the blood of His Lamb.
Rom. 8:38,39
"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the LOVE OF GOD that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
God will always LOVE US with the LOVE OF GOD that is in Christ Jesus because through Him we have surety of God's love for us.
But knowing that God loves us is not enough if we then reject Jesus because in Him we are saved.
It would be a bit like saying, I love the light from the lightbulb but I do not believe that the light bulb exists and I do not believe in the source of power that lights up the light bulb in the first place.
Utter nonsense. Sure you all love the light. But do not reject either the light bulb nor its source of power. It shines for you.
peace
c20
e.g Love is never having to say you are sorry.
I thought I might try my hand at Hell is...
Hell is always having to say you are sorry.
Hell is being told you are not worthy to live another day.
Hell is watching children be raped whilst you are a child yourself.
Hell is being raped.
Hell is being tortured.
Hell is having your children taken off you whilst the person snatching them sneers at your pain.
Hell is watching society and family structures crumble around you.
Hell is feeling powerless to stop evil from happening.
Hell is an absence of love.
God is love. Jesus overcame the powers of Hell on the Cross. The powers of Hell were unleashed fully upon Him which is why He cried "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me." As I said, Hell is an absense of love and God is love. But even in all that blackness, all that pain. all that suffering, all that injustice, there was still a light. That Light was in Jesus and that Light was Jesus, for inside of Jesus' heart there was love for man and there was love for God - "Father forgive them because they do not know what it is they are doing"
Because God accepted Jesus as a pure sacrifice, we are washed clean by the blood of His Lamb.
Rom. 8:38,39
"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the LOVE OF GOD that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
God will always LOVE US with the LOVE OF GOD that is in Christ Jesus because through Him we have surety of God's love for us.
But knowing that God loves us is not enough if we then reject Jesus because in Him we are saved.
It would be a bit like saying, I love the light from the lightbulb but I do not believe that the light bulb exists and I do not believe in the source of power that lights up the light bulb in the first place.
Utter nonsense. Sure you all love the light. But do not reject either the light bulb nor its source of power. It shines for you.
peace
c20
Excellen't thread.
(my salute's to Nevyn O'kane)
Hell will also be a thrill to live in considering St. Augustine, Francis, and Paul will all be there.
We'll get to watch them all burn in hell for having been born human.
George Carlin will also be nice to end up with.
(my salute's to Nevyn O'kane)
Hell will also be a thrill to live in considering St. Augustine, Francis, and Paul will all be there.
We'll get to watch them all burn in hell for having been born human.
George Carlin will also be nice to end up with.