Heaven?

Godless said:
Have a nice read;

click

Basically all made up bull shit from primitive mentality!.

Godless


A few things worth mentioning. First, thank you for the good read, I'm inclined to purchase the book for myself.

Next, concerning the content of the material, as I understand from the bit that's provided at those links, in light of your previous post (which I already responded to). Religion, then, is not "made-up." If I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, the best you can say is that it is all one big misunderstanding, or mistake. Also, as a side note, as clearly shown in the thesis of the material of your link, ideas of afterlife and 'gods' came much earlier than Egyptian religion, during the hunter-gatherer, nomadism of man.

In any case, monotheism came much later than the early hallucination-stage. In fact, as the consciousness of man evolved, monotheism came to be one of the logical results (consider Aristotle here). If the hallucination-model of the bicameral mind is correct, and things like idol-worship was exactly that, worship of the object itself, then we should consider Biblical warnings against idol-worship as somewhat enlightenend. Furthermore, an examination of the Adam and Eve story in Genesis under the consideration of this theory appears to yield a fair understanding of the shift from 'unconsciousness' to consciousness in that it was with "knowledge" that man became guilty, for guilt can only be had by an intelligent mind. As well, the Cane and Abel story, under this consideration, should also make a little more sense, as it appears that the author of Genesis favored the time before 'consciousness,' since God favored the offing of Abel, a lamb, over the offering of Cane, a pile of produce. Of course, the symbolism is now obvious, since the lamb is associated with the hunter-gatherer life-style, while the produce is associated with the settled life-style. Each of these life-styles can then be associated with the different stages of mental development (hunter-gatherer to hallucination - God's acceptance.... settled to conscoius - God's rejection). Cane, representing right-hemisphere "kills his brother" left-hemisphere, and who goes on to settle and build cities.

Of course, later religions (like Catholocism), consider the middle ground, uniting the two, Ratio et Fides. After all, we do have two hemispheres, that is our nature. Then, of course, Buddhism said the middle ground was nothingness, a cancellation of the opposing forces, that suffering was a result of this life, and to end the suffering was to break the cycle of life and death. Of course, in a sense they're right, but it's actually awareness of this life that is the cause of suffering. Or to be more specific, consciousness. Priorly, we could experience pain, but not suffering. We felt pain, but weren't conscious of it.

Anyway, I've said before, in other threads, what was once believed, religiously, or what was believed at the birth of certain religions, isn't what is believed now. That's the main key. Conscious minds have concluded that there is a single God, but the characteristics of this God are almost entirely alien to the characteristics of early gods. This is what is important.

As far as I'm concerned, and have always been concerned, there is truth in every human construct, because human constructs are models whereby we come to understand the world about us. Science is merely the product of the right-hemisphere, Religion, the left. Both come from the brain. Both pertain to reality. How we understand ancient texts and beliefs... and this is vitally important... is probably NOT how they understood them.
 
beyondtimeandspace said:
A few things worth mentioning.

In any case, monotheism came much later than the early hallucination-stage. In fact, as the consciousness of man evolved, monotheism came to be one of the logical results (consider Aristotle here). If the hallucination-model of the bicameral mind is correct, and things like idol-worship was exactly that, worship of the object itself, then we should consider Biblical warnings against idol-worship as somewhat enlightenend.

me________i have never taken JulianJayne's tesis seriously. for if hmans HAD been natrually hallucinatory why thente central significance of psychedelic inspiration in myth. bot from world religious mythology (albeit crypticlly hidded) and Indigenous cultures. tis is't to say tho that premodern humans weren't more sensitve

Furthermore, an examination of the Adam and Eve story in Genesis under the consideration of this theory appears to yield a fair understanding of the shift from 'unconsciousness' to consciousness in that it was with "knowledge" that man became guilty, for guilt can only be had by an intelligent mind.

me)))))))))not so. animals can also be guilty. also intelligence is seeing THRU myth which guilts!

As well, the Cane and Abel story, under this consideration, should also make a little more sense, as it appears that the author of Genesis favored the time before 'consciousness,' since God favored the offing of Abel, a lamb, over the offering of Cane, a pile of produce. Of course, the symbolism is now obvious, since the lamb is associated with the hunter-gatherer life-style, while the produce is associated with the settled life-style. Each of these life-styles can then be associated with the different stages of mental development (hunter-gatherer to hallucination - God's acceptance.... settled to conscoius - God's rejection). Cane, representing right-hemisphere "kills his brother" left-hemisphere, and who goes on to settle and build cities.

me))))))hwat do you mean 'before consciousness'??

Of course, later religions (like Catholocism), consider the middle ground, uniting the two, Ratio et Fides. After all, we do have two hemispheres, that is our nature. Then, of course, Buddhism said the middle ground was nothingness, a cancellation of the opposing forces, that suffering was a result of this life, and to end the suffering was to break the cycle of life and death. Of course, in a sense they're right, but it's actually awareness of this life that is the cause of suffering. Or to be more specific, consciousness. Priorly, we could experience pain, but not suffering. We felt pain, but weren't conscious of it.

me))))))sorry mate, but yor talkin a load of cobblers!

Anyway, I've said before, in other threads, what was once believed, religiously, or what was believed at the birth of certain religions, isn't what is believed now. That's the main key. Conscious minds have concluded that there is a single God, but the characteristics of this God are almost entirely alien to the characteristics of early gods. This is what is important.

As far as I'm concerned, and have always been concerned, there is truth in every human construct, because human constructs are models whereby we come to understand the world about us. Science is merely the product of the right-hemisphere, Religion, the left. Both come from the brain. Both pertain to reality. How we understand ancient texts and beliefs... and this is vitally important... is probably NOT how they understood them.
you've got right and left brain mixed up. 'Right brain' has always mythicvally been te province of Goddess stream...ie., te patriarchal condemnation of it has been termed the 'Left hand Path', also 'sinister' means same. science is left brain right hand/hunters hand
 
duendy said:
ahahhhhh, at LAST, someone else who acknowledges anceint use of psychedelic mushrooms....!

Who cares about ancient psychedelic mushrooms?

Actaully this mythic idea as far as i'velearned began in Egypt, BUT, their idea of it, andhell, was NOTeverlastin. it was the Christians who decided to punish the 'damned' for ever and ever.

"Forever" just means a time which feels very long (cuz of suffering), just like thousand years doesn't have to mean 1000 years.

If you suffer more, time goes slower. If you suffer infinitely, time seems to have stopped. It ceases to exist. Just like when you're happy... time ceases to exist... there is only the presence...

Still... even though hell seems eternal for the one who is in hell, time still goes forward.
 
Next, concerning the content of the material, as I understand from the bit that's provided at those links, in light of your previous post (which I already responded to). Religion, then, is not "made-up." If I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, the best you can say is that it is all one big misunderstanding, or mistake. Also, as a side note, as clearly shown in the thesis of the material of your link, ideas of afterlife and 'gods' came much earlier than Egyptian religion, during the hunter-gatherer, nomadism of man.

Surely but I ref. the Egyptians because they were actually the most known civilization to believe in such things. But throughout human evolution of mind, it (the mind) much developed rather similarly & furthermore BT&S after a few stiff drinks that night it was the only civilization that I thought of. ;)


In any case, monotheism came much later than the early hallucination-stage. In fact, as the consciousness of man evolved, monotheism came to be one of the logical results (consider Aristotle here). If the hallucination-model of the bicameral mind is correct, and things like idol-worship was exactly that, worship of the object itself, then we should consider Biblical warnings against idol-worship as somewhat enlightenend. Furthermore, an examination of the Adam and Eve story in Genesis under the consideration of this theory appears to yield a fair understanding of the shift from 'unconsciousness' to consciousness in that it was with "knowledge" that man became guilty, for guilt can only be had by an intelligent mind. As well, the Cane and Abel story, under this consideration, should also make a little more sense, as it appears that the author of Genesis favored the time before 'consciousness,' since God favored the offing of Abel, a lamb, over the offering of Cane, a pile of produce. Of course, the symbolism is now obvious, since the lamb is associated with the hunter-gatherer life-style, while the produce is associated with the settled life-style. Each of these life-styles can then be associated with the different stages of mental development (hunter-gatherer to hallucination - God's acceptance.... settled to conscoius - God's rejection). Cane, representing right-hemisphere "kills his brother" left-hemisphere, and who goes on to settle and build cities.

I believe Jaynes references the Cain & Able story of the bible, he uses the bible as a quide as well when the changes of the mind began to occur. However BT&S people are all different in this period of mental transition there will be those that lack consciousness and those whom still hear the voices. I.E. the oracles of the Greeks during the same period of time such as Aristotle and Plato. People still "believed" that the oracles had some sort of wisdom and communicated with the gods.

Of course, later religions (like Catholocism), consider the middle ground, uniting the two, Ratio et Fides. After all, we do have two hemispheres, that is our nature. Then, of course, Buddhism said the middle ground was nothingness, a cancellation of the opposing forces, that suffering was a result of this life, and to end the suffering was to break the cycle of life and death. Of course, in a sense they're right, but it's actually awareness of this life that is the cause of suffering. Or to be more specific, consciousness. Priorly, we could experience pain, but not suffering. We felt pain, but weren't conscious of it.

I must sound like a book salesmen by now. But Jaynes does covers different idealogies of beliefs, around the globe including the beliefs of Buddah. (Don't quote me on this) But I think that Sidharta Gautama (Buddah) was considered enlightened because he had become conscious of his enviorenment and self in this region of the world before others had reached this mental transition, thus he sought out to find his quest for enlightenment. Thus I think he perhaps understood very well what had happened to his mind and began to expand his knowledge of life and existence.

Anyway, I've said before, in other threads, what was once believed, religiously, or what was believed at the birth of certain religions, isn't what is believed now. That's the main key. Conscious minds have concluded that there is a single God, but the characteristics of this God are almost entirely alien to the characteristics of early gods. This is what is important.

Thus this is why many atheist assert that "god was created by men's immage" and not the other way around. And god will continue to change untill someday we evolve beyond it, and accept that no such entity need exist or does exist. However just like the times when people were becoming conscious of self the transformation began were civilization of individuals were conscious began to progress and others lack behind and still clunk to their voices "gods" will still occur, as is happening today. The atheist community is growing, secularist are becoming more in numbers while others still want to cling to and adhire to church authorities and doctrines.

As far as I'm concerned, and have always been concerned, there is truth in every human construct, because human constructs are models whereby we come to understand the world about us. Science is merely the product of the right-hemisphere, Religion, the left. Both come from the brain. Both pertain to reality. How we understand ancient texts and beliefs... and this is vitally important... is probably NOT how they understood them.

Evolution at work. The more that science discovers about our reality the further are we likely to believe in such things as gods, devils, demons, ghosts, unicorns, leprechans, and mysticism will be understood as a mental degenerative deseas.

Watch movie The One.

Cool movie, but not likely to be true. Just like the matrix.

Godless
 
c7ityi_ said:
Who cares about ancient psychedelic mushrooms?

me)))))))obviously not yo flakey


"Forever" just means a time which feels very long (cuz of suffering), just like thousand years doesn't have to mean 1000 years.

me))))))oh right. you are professional interpreter for the offical Christian Church are you....get reaaal kid. yo is makin it up as yu go along...ha ha....

If you suffer more, time goes slower. If you suffer infinitely, time seems to have stopped. It ceases to exist. Just like when you're happy... time ceases to exist... there is only the presence...

me))))yes. you mean atemporal. wedig. but errr the Church idn't MEA tat. they meant everlasting punishment in hell, ad eternal reward in heaven....oooops. u know, carrot and stick?

Still... even though hell seems eternal for the one who is in hell, time still goes forward.
you should right a book titled 'this is how it is'
 
duendy said:
me))))))oh right. you are professional interpreter for the offical Christian Church are you....get reaaal kid. yo is makin it up as yu go along...ha ha....

i'm an expert interpreter of the bible. dunno nothing about the church.. yea... i'm kind of making it up as i go but i don't understand what it matters. i know i'm still right cuz i trust my intuition.

i don't know how old you are but maybe you're too old to understand it.

duendy said:
you should right a book titled 'this is how it is'

'This is how I THINK it is'. But when I write, [I think] it's unnecessary to always say "I think" and things like "probably". Best not to waste words and just get to the point. There's no need to include personal stuff in discussion,
 
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c7ityi_ said:
i'm an expert interpreter of the bible. dunno nothing about the church.. yea... i'm kind of making it up as i go but i don't understand what it matters. i know i'm still right cuz i trust my intuition.

i don't know how old you are but maybe you're too old to understand it.



'This is how I THINK it is'. But when I write, [I think] it's unnecessary to always say "I think" and things like "probably". Best not to waste words and just get to the point. There's no need to include personal stuff in discussion,
alright alright, fair enough. you admit it is not set in 'religios' and/or'scientific' book of law fine. but i dont aggree with many of your insights as you know
 
The only thing wrong with the bible, is that people cling to the 1500 year old interpretation of genesis and so forth...

Genesis is not flawed... our interpretation of it is.

-MT
 
Genesis is not flawed... our interpretation of it is.

LOL.. Thanks for the good joke!. :D

link

The bible is not flawed only our interpretation keeps changing with every new scientific finding... that's all. :rolleyes:

Godless
 
Cris said:
Sure heaven exists. Well it will exist. Or maybe it might exist one day.

It all depends on how well we can pull ourselves together and solve a few problems, like how not to die for a start.

that is the most open minded thing ive ever seen you post!! wow...perhaps i made a false assumption of you. do more gems like this lie in wait in your brains?
actually, i guess this just proves that no matter how open minded i think i am, sometimes i am a victim of close-mindedness too.

thank you for the humbling experience, Cris! :)
(none of the above post was sarcasm)
 
i cant speak for the NT, but with the Torah, everything that is written that is "fantastic" actually can be interpreted scientifically as well. for every verse, there is a counterverse somewhere else in the Torah that gives you the ability to apply what was written to the reality we now live in.
for example: Genesis says the earth was created in six days. well, in the songs of solomon, there is verse stating that one day to god is a thousand years to man, and goes on to describe the formula for such calculations. carrying this out, i calculated the age of the universe to be 15 billion years. its all in the bible.
now, before the debunkers sink their teeth into me, im going to go get the verse and chapter numbers, so they can do the calculations themselves :)
be back with results in a few hours with the formula, book, and chapter numbers.
the reason for this post is so that people can see that there is a such thing as an intelligent, scientifically minded believer. where there is ONE, there are bound to be MANY, no? :m:
 
it is so VERY dangerous to scientificate patriarchal mythology, which is what yor doing.......!
IRONICALLY it isn't new. it has been agoin on ever since the emergence of science, with Galileo!!

first there was an agreement between science and church.
I.e., it was agreed that scientific endeavour would focus on physica and forces, and church on 'spirital' matters

Now i want you to really take note bout that agreement........It is agreed, but both sides do not acknowledge the PREMISE of there being a supposed split between 'matter' and 'spirit'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
do you get me??

When eventually wit post Galillean science even 'God' and 'spirit' are dispensed with as being non-existent as thewy cannot be measured, and re not needed for te pursuit of ' MATERIALISTIC science', then we arrive into the mechanistic paradigm we are still immersed in now.

So how does the patriarchal myth of Judaic Christianity still ten effect science on an UNconscious level?..well read again Chris's (a person claiming to not be religious anymore) last post. about how soon we will soon scintifically defeat death.....! ....yes? understand?...the patriarchal myth is still wokin on in tere in preconceived assumptions ,aand visions, etc, which is all VERY VERYdangerous. so you godless claiming scientific commensurabiility wit biblical myth throws more petrol ontothe already blazin fire !

of course yer free to do i, i am warning of the dangers
 
about how soon we will soon scintifically defeat death.....! ....yes? understand?...the patriarchal myth is still wokin on in tere in preconceived assumptions ,aand visions, etc, which is all VERY VERYdangerous. so you godless claiming scientific commensurabiility wit biblical myth throws more petrol ontothe already blazin fire !

Dude, you realy don't know what the fuck you are talking about. When Chris or I mention about defeating death, it's in a secular way, no false promise, it's been researched as we speak, biological immortality won't stop people from dying from accidents or personal trauma (suicide), people will still be dying, however life will be prolonged for individuals that do take advantage of scientific research to prolong their lives.

Ref

click

ACHIEVING COMMERCIAL BIOLOGICAL IMMORTALITY

Godless
 
Godless said:
Dude, you realy don't know what the fuck you are talking about. When Chris or I mention about defeating death, it's in a secular way, no false promise, it's been researched as we speak, biological immortality won't stop people from dying from accidents or personal trauma (suicide), people will still be dying, however life will be prolonged for individuals that do take advantage of scientific research to prolong their lives.

Ref

click

ACHIEVING COMMERCIAL BIOLOGICAL IMMORTALITY

Godless
no your not listening. so listen. of bleedin COURSE yer not gonna mention 'God'. you IMAGINEyou have left all thayt behind dont you?

BUT, all of te VISIONof tat patriarchal myth of 'defeating death'--yeah??--lives ON with you. only THIS tyime science is 'god' and/or the scientist(s) is god and/or the CULTURE that believes it is superior cause it has knowledge of science is god. get me?

BOTH you and previous paradigm split spirit from Nature. in fact as said, science disMISSESte very idea of spirit. not only as te patriarchal idea of 'God' but even prepatriarchal understanding os spirit beling immanent in matter. ie., Nature being alive. is this clear?

NOw. previos paradigm created confilts with thi psychological split, and that shit is still going on in tis so-clled Age of Science. ie., Middle East etc

What your worldviews do to add to the mess is your naive vision tat deat can be defeated. how very reductionist of you. having no tought for ote species, resources, generations to come. get me?...WHO will live longer or have so-called biological immortality (as IF).....let me tell you. the elite is who! the rich/ the ones, the grabin greedy, who wont and cant LET GO. of course you cant see this. blinded as yo are by your ridiulous dreams
 
sometimes im embarrassed to be lumped in with people like duendy.
i agree with secularists far more than with religious folks, usually.
strange that i am a deeply spiritual person.
 
From a biblical perspective "heaven" merely relates to the big black expanse above our heads, (space), and so yes.. it does exist. If you think you're going to get an eternal life version 2.0 with your loved ones once you kick the bucket somewhere out in the big black expanse, then you are deluded beyond compare.

Again from a biblical perspective there is the afterlife (tm), that entails living in a new jerusalem. Personally I don't wanna live there in this life let alone the next one. Of course however things are changed slightly.. Instead of the streets being made of shoddy brickwork and poor mans concrete, it's made of gold and rubies and diamonds and emeralds and every other kind of gem that a seriously materialistic weasel could want. In that city dwell all the 'good' folk, while the sexually immoral, liars, fortune tellers and dogs get to dwell outside the city. If anyone actually believes this ancient halfwit tripe, I would urge the local government to take that person out and extinctify him. It is without doubt the largest single piece of old bollocks I have ever had the misfortune of being presented with and I simply detest the fact that there are that many fools that believe it to be real.

From a non-biblical perspective, I can only state the above once more. Complete and utter bollocks, plain and simple.

From a personal perspective I think the very idea is far from appealing, indeed it gives me the shits. Yes, I love my wife dearly, but would I want to spend the next 60 gazillion trillion billion gajillion quadrillion sentillion years with the woman? Please.. gimme a break.

I can't honestly believe anyone in their right mind would give the notion serious consideration. Complete utter total bollocks.
 
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The Devil Inside said:
sometimes im embarrassed to be lumped in with people like duendy.
i agree with secularists far more than with religious folks, usually.
strange that i am a deeply spiritual person.
if i was you i'd be embarrassed at my lack of understanding capacity
 
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