This and that
S.A.M. said:
What difference does it make to the abused women if its culture, religion or apostasy?
In the moment? Probably none. But in the broader view of the problem, we have more avenues of redress. Comparative progress no more means the job is finished than to say the the airplane has reached its destination simply because the wheels are up off the ground. We have a long way to go.
However, I would suggest that a great proportion of the American success in this world is the produce of our sins. We distort our religious faith, we routinely twist and flip our traditional principles; we are forever lying to ourselves. And, yes, that's a very important aspect of how we got to where we are, for both good and ill.
In the end, progress toward social justice is easier to make if the disagreeing sides aren't standing rigidly on the proposition that they represent God's will.
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Quadraphonics said:
So what?
Are we going to exempt, say, the consumerist inanities of Christmas celebrations from criticism of Christianity because it has no basis in the Gospels? When people refer to "Religion X," it ought to be understood that they're referring to the totality of customs, beliefs and practices associated with said religion, and not simply the subset that enjoy ironclad theological pedigrees.
It's not a matter of exemption. Look, if I want to get to Portland, Oregon, I'm going to drive
south on Interstate 5. Don't get me wrong, east on Interstate 90 is a
fascinating drive, and west on a boat would be a hell of an adventure. Canada is lovely this time a year, so why not go north? Oh, right: I'm trying to get to
Portland.
My point being that if you actually want real progress in any given issue, it would behoove you to learn earnestly about the circumstances you are criticizing. Leaping to bigotry just because it's your whipping boy du jour doesn't actually help a damn thing. Maybe you feel better and stronger, and maybe even a little more macho bashing on Muslims, but the clueless are the clueless, and can't really do much to help since they haven't a clue.
I mean, look at the idiotic language going around:
• "
I know it's the traditional liberal view to ignore religion, but I feel that's a mistake." (
Spidergoat)
• "
That just means that it is their culture (or at least that part of it) that we need to eradicate instead." (
WillNever)
• "
Are we going to exempt, say, the consumerist inanities of Christmas celebrations from criticism of Christianity because it has no basis in the Gospels?" (
Quadraphonics)
Ach! He'p us, he'p us! Ignore, eradicate, exempt! These words are included originally more for the satisfaction of the authors than any useful communication. Spidergoat needs to learn it's not a matter of ignoring religion insofar as not everyone who doesn't hate the way he hates is ignoring what he wants them to hate. Will needs to figure out a little about how the components of cultures operate and affect one another. You, sir, need to learn to stop using stupid and ineffective comparisons in lieu of a real argument. Cultural dynamics are far more subtle than anything the Islamophobes ever demonstrate themselves capable of comprehending.
Think of a light bulb. Now, you could stand there shouting, "Why won't it work? I'm flippin' the switch."
Uh, dude, you might want to screw it in, first. "Don't oppress me! Goddamn conspiracy! Utility companies and mannafactchers and guv'mint agents tryin' to tell me how I have to use a light bulb!"
Sometimes, it's not a conspiracy. Sometimes Tab A necessarily fits into Slot B. Sometimes you have to screw in the bulb before it will light. Sometimes you have to add the eggs
before you put the cake mix in the oven. And yes, sometimes you need to be able to comprehend the components of what you criticize before you make your point.
Islam is an easy target these days. Look at this thread: A proposition is put forward, the proposition is rebuffed, the thread turns into a bitch parade about what's wrong with Muslims. One could probably have predicted this at the outset, but some actually prefer to hope their neighbors will actually rise above the petty bigotry that makes up so much of what passes for discussion around here.