Harry Potter Star Afshan Azad Attacked by Father, Brother in attempted Honor Killing

[Tiassa]

Word of the Day

That just means that it is their culture (or at least that part of it) that we need to eradicate instead. When it is a society's culture to torture and kill, then it isn't culture at all. It's just barbarism.

Is "eradicate" your Word of the Day?

 

[spidergoat]

It's silly to think we can eradicate this culture, they will only feel offended and circle the wagons.

 

[GeoffP]

In other words, it's an invention after the fact. That's the point: It's a cultural phenomenon, not a religious one.

Well...not exactly.

You can indeed find numerous misogynistic ayahs in the Quran: we could get into the usual endless argument about them, but I think it would be easier to just point you to something like this.

Now, it's true that the weight of this religious misogyny in law depends entirely on the makers of that law - as any law. But I don't think you can look broadly at the Islamic world and say that it's merely a cultural phenomenon: of which culture common to them all, then? What is it all these Islamic countries have in common, then? The one springs from the other, and it's foolish to claim otherwise. Several Islamic countries have got out of this rut - Turkey being one - but we can't simply deny it occurs. (I suppose it would normally go without saying, but the South American situation, and its apparent legal defense, is also deplorable.) It seems fairly apparent that religious misogyny has been translated into legal and/or social misogyny. You'll find the same in other religions, of course.

The question I was discussing with Bells...before she apparently got tipsy and logged off shrug...was with what frequency it occurs outside such nations.

Look, as a comparison: what is the scriptural basis for "honour killings" or whatever one chooses to call the phenomenon in Hindu cultures, or South American ones? (In the latter case, one might point to Christian doctrine, although it would be hard IMHO to reconcile that with the whole stone-throwing parable. Maybe one could infer a 'poisoned cultural perspective' from Corinthians.) If nothing, then you could say it was cultural in these cases, but I don't think it applies to the one under discussion.

 

[Tiassa]

Because Americans are humans, too

Well...not exactly.

You can indeed find numerous misogynistic ayahs in the Quran: we could get into the usual endless argument about them, but I think it would be easier to just point you to something like this.

True, but the question at hand wasn't about misogyny in general. It was the proposition that honor killing is codified in Muslim religion. At the basis of that religion is the Qu'ran, in which there is no such standard. Honor killing arose as a cultural addition.

The question I was discussing with Bells...before she apparently got tipsy and logged off ( :shrug: )...was with what frequency it occurs outside such nations.

I wholeheartedly support her stiff drink last night. Indeed, I would have been stoned out of my mind last night if I had any reliable dealers. We just finished up some tough, mindbending business in the back room last night. Leave that part be. Once the headache wears off, she'll be back.

Look, as a comparison: what is the scriptural basis for "honour killings" or whatever one chooses to call the phenomenon in Hindu cultures, or South American ones? (In the latter case, one might point to Christian doctrine, although it would be hard IMHO to reconcile that with the whole stone-throwing parable. Maybe one could infer a 'poisoned cultural perspective' from Corinthians.) If nothing, then you could say it was cultural in these cases, but I don't think it applies to the one under discussion.

One need not look to parables. There's a bit in the Old Testament about poisoning your wife. I'll dig it up if we really need it.

But, in consideration of that, a question emerges for those so hell-bent on indicting Islam: What will it take for Muslims to imitate Christians with a diminished regard for holy scripture?

That is how you get around these cultural ideas. Over time, Christians in the West have taken the Bible less and less seriously. Infect them with capitalism, spike them with Freud. Keep them comparatively affluent and horny. Essentially, convince them of the great merits of heresy and apostasy. It worked for Americans.

 

[S.A.M.]

It worked for Americans.

How do you reach that conclusion?

According to the U.S. Department of Justice, between 1998 and 2002:

* Of the almost 3.5 million violent crimes committed against family members, 49% of these were crimes against spouses.
* 84% of spouse abuse victims were females, and 86% of victims of dating partner abuse at were female.
* Males were 83% of spouse murderers and 75% of dating partner murderers
* 50% of offenders in state prison for spousal abuse had killed their victims. Wives were more likely than husbands to be killed by their spouses: wives were about half of all spouses in the population in 2002, but 81% of all persons killed by their spouse.

http://www.soundvision.com/Info/domesticviolence/statistics.asp

 

[spidergoat]

Why would Muslim women report beatings? And how? They often cannot even leave the house without a male relative. Here in the US, it's underreported but definately not tolerated. An abused woman can get help from the police. So we have statistics.

 

[Tiassa]

Honestly, I think that's obvious

How do you reach that conclusion?

We're the foremost empire in the world. Our domestic violence is a matter of stupidity and sexism, and not tinged with religious rhetoric. We seem to have chosen apostasy over faith. Human endeavors are imperfect, as humans are imperfect. But we have managed to transform the context of our social ills into something more academic and psychological than outright spiritual.

Seriously, give people a reason to pay mere lip service to God, and they'll take it. For the sake of the species, though, make it a somewhat good reason.

 

[quadraphonics]

True, but the question at hand wasn't about misogyny in general. It was the proposition that honor killing is codified in Muslim religion. At the basis of that religion is the Qu'ran, in which there is no such standard. Honor killing arose as a cultural addition.

So what?

Are we going to exempt, say, the consumerist inanities of Christmas celebrations from criticism of Christianity because it has no basis in the Gospels? When people refer to "Religion X," it ought to be understood that they're referring to the totality of customs, beliefs and practices associated with said religion, and not simply the subset that enjoy ironclad theological pedigrees.

Or, failing that, where are the criticisms of huge swaths of Islam (and every other religion, ever) for incorporating vast seams of cultural artifice? Whence, for that matter, the supposition that the contents of the scriptures are not themselves simply codified cultural baggage in the first place? This whole line of rhetoric, as it appears on SciForums, is looking an awful lot like nothing more than a pretext to avoid being seen to say anything critical about Islam, and not infrequently veers into no-true-Scotsman territory.

 

[Bells]

I'm still drunk..

I think I mentioned the "circle" above: but by circle, you mean her "mosque group"? ...actually, I've never heard of this in religious families, and certainly not in Britain. And why does this debate sound so damn familiar? Must be deja vu, I suppose.

You have never heard displeasure being expressed from people because their child is not dating 'one of them'? It happens in all religious circles Geoff and in many families. Time for you to get out there, meet new people and broaden your horizons and realise just how fucked up some people really are. For example:

In a commentary on the book of Ezra, in which Ezra led marriage reforms among the recently returned Israelites in Jerusalem, pastor and author Mark Dever applied these Old Testament passages to modern Christians with this straightforward counsel:

"If you are engaged to a non-Christian, break off the engagement.... Better to lose your deposits on receptions and invitations than your soul. 'Are you saying that I can lose my salvation by marrying a non-Christian?' No, I am saying that your actions reveal what you really love.... God has a wonderful plan for us in marriage, and part of it includes finding someone with whom we can establish a peaceful unity, where we reinforce one another, not where we disagree and chafe over the matters that we claim are closest to our hearts."​

From the Old through the New Testament, God's Word requires that His people live as witnesses to His character and glory — standing out from the culture around them. This means our relationships should look different, as well. Any intimate relationship between someone who worships the Lord and someone who worships self or other gods would suffer vast differences in sexual purity before marriage and sexual fidelity in marriage; in parenting goals (discipleship versus mere good behavior); in management of time and money; and even in how holidays are celebrated.

(Source)

Sometimes the State takes up the challenge..

The Israeli government has launched a television and Internet advertising campaign urging Israelis to inform on Jewish friends and relatives abroad who may be in danger of marrying non-Jews.

The advertisements, employing what the Israeli media described as "scare tactics," are designed to stop assimilation through intermarriage among young Diaspora Jews by encouraging their move to Israel.

The campaign, which cost $800,000, was created in response to reports that half of all Jews outside Israel marry non-Jews.

(Source)

Faten Habash's father wept as he assured his daughter there would be no more beatings, no more threats to her life and that she was free to marry the man she loved, even if he was a Muslim. All he asked was that Faten return home.

Hassan Habash even gave his word to an emissary from a Bedouin tribe traditionally brought in to mediate in matters of family honour, a commitment regarded as sacrosanct in Palestinian society. But the next weekend, as Faten watched a Boy Scouts parade from the balcony of her Ramallah home, the 22-year-old Christian Palestinian was dragged into the living room and bludgeoned to death with an iron bar. Her father was arrested for the murder.

"He gave me his word she would not be harmed," said Ibrahim Abu Dahouq, the Bedouin mediator. "He was crying and begging her to come home. They were even telling me that for their daughter to leave their house as a bride would be an honour for them. We never believed that love would lead to death in this ugly way."

------------------------------------

Faten's father enlisted the family priest to stop his daughter on the grounds that, even though she was 22, all women are legally regarded as minors under the authority of their male relatives. The Palestinian authorities returned Faten to her home where she was beaten and her pelvis broken as she was either thrown from a window or jumped trying to escape. She spent six weeks in hospital. She sought protection under an ancient Bedouin formula for resolving disputes, known as Tanebeh. Abu Dahouq, a lawyer for the Dawakuk tribe, negotiated with the Habash family.

Mr Dahouq said: "Faten believed she had received a guarantee of security." Two days later she was murdered. "This family had no honour, no manners, no ethics," he said. "And the girl was as honourable as could be. All she wanted to do was marry this man she loved. I think the people in her church also have responsibility for this killing. They told this family that their daughter brought shame, so that makes them part of the crime."

The family priest, Father Ibrahim Hijazin, declined to talk about Faten's killing other than to say he called the Palestinian authorities to prevent her from reaching Jordan. But he says other families would have reacted as hers did. "There is no interfaith marriage among Arabs. Catholics here are Christian by faith and Muslim by culture, and in this community it is forbidden for Christians to marry Muslims. It's not good. It's a tribal mentality. I don't accept it, but it is the culture," he said.

After Faten's murder, several hundred Palestinian women held a vigil in Ramallah to demand an end to honour killings.

(source)

I mean I could go on.. but you get my drift? This isn't just a Muslim problem. It happens everywhere.

Ah: I see where you were going, above. However, there's not much difference - as I think we'd agreed - between what people call an "honour crime" and simple domestic assault. As to whether or not they tried to kill her, or how bad her injuries were, I couldn't say. It certainly sounds like more than a simple slap, however. I don't think it fits into that category.

Even a simple slap is domestic abuse Geoff. So regardless of what they did, it does amount to domestic abuse. At the end of the day, that is what it is.. domestic violence:

Others, though, would like the term obliterated.

"I get really distressed by the idea that a really terrible violence that has been done to girls and women is now getting framed as a kind of hate fest, something about Islam and Muslims," says Sherene Razack, professor of sociology and equity studies at University of Toronto's Ontario Institute for Studies in Education.

Razack says the term also detracts from the real issue, which, in the end, simply boils down to violence against women.

(Source)

The issue with the use of the term honour killing or "attempted honour killing" in this particular case, for instance, is that it takes attention away from domestic violence as an issue in the UK and around the world. Women are victims of domestic violence, regardless of their religion, ethnicity or culture. By repeatedly using the term honour killings, we are setting an us vs them culture where women from both sides of the equation will stop seeking help. Muslim women will not want to in Western countries because of how the media portrays it as a Muslim or Islamic issue when the reality is that it is not. It is a cultural issue that occurs world wide and is not solely applicable to Muslims.

We are arguing something silly here really.

I just find the use of the term "honour killing" for this diminishes the actual seriousness of the problem just as it diminishes domestic violence issues.

I agree. But do such crimes carry implicit legal leniency? And if so, on what basis? The religious basis for reduced sentencing is clear in the ME: perhaps this does make them a special case after all. Or rather: maybe it would contribute to higher frequency in families from the ME.

So why is it not sanctioned in the Qu'ran?

The question I was discussing with Bells...before she apparently got tipsy and logged off

My dear boy.. tipsy does not even come close..

AND religion AND especially Islam. I know it's the traditional liberal view to ignore religion, but I feel that's a mistake. Traditional values are religious values centering on sin. I believe that these values did predate religion, and were codified in religion, but that factor makes it very difficult to overcome, even if the other factors were accounted for like poverty.

Really?

Even in Brazil, for example?

How about these:

"Honor crimes" are sometimes assumed to be sanctioned by Islam since they occur most commonly in the Middle East. But while perpetrators of "honor crimes" often cite religious justification for their acts, these crimes are not rooted in any religious text. "Honor crimes" originated in customary law that pre-dates Islam and Christianity. They span communities, religions, and countries, including Argentina, Bangladesh, Brazil, Ecuador, Egypt, Guatemala, India, Iran, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Pakistan, Palestine, Peru, Syria, Turkey, and Venezuela.

In some countries, "honor crimes" passed from customary law into formal legal systems and penal codes enacted by European colonialists. "Honor crimes" are often treated like so-called "crimes of passion" in Western jurisprudence in that sentencing is based not on the crime, but on the feelings of the perpetrator. For example, in 1999, a Texas judge sentenced a man to four months in prison for murdering his wife and wounding her lover in front of their 10-year-old child.1 As in an "honor killing," adultery was viewed as a mitigating factor in the case. But while individualistic societies such as the US tend to locate honor in the individual, communities that condone "honor killings" locate honor in the family, tribe, or clan. "Honor killings" are therefore often carried out with public support -- sometimes even by those who are grief-stricken by the woman's death.

Like "crime of passion" the term "honor killing" communicates the perspective of the perpetrator, and thereby carries an implicit justification. Some women's rights advocates therefore prefer the terms "femicide," "shame killings," or "so-called honor killings."

http://www.zcommunications.org/honor-crimes-by-madre

Honour crimes happened before Islam was even a glimmer in Allah's eyes, or before the birth of Christ. The religion itself does not support it - it isn't codified in the Islamic religion.

It isn't Islamic. It has nothing to do with "sin". It has everything to do with the notion of dishonouring one's family or family name.. It isn't sin. It is bringing shame upon the family and one does not have to sin to do it..

Ending these honor killings would also be the end of Islam, as these values are integral to it's patriarchal nature. If you can't control your women, then you aren't in control at all.

You mean they'll become more Westernised and be like us and call it domestic violence? Okay then.

Why would Muslim women report beatings? And how? They often cannot even leave the house without a male relative.

Like the Muslim woman in the UK who begged the police for help and they ignored her.. until she was killed? Okay..

An inquiry was under way last night into a series of police blunders which ended in the “honour” killing of a young woman at the hands of her father and uncle.

At the centre of the police investigation will be the role played by PC Angela Cornes, who ignored the claims by Banaz Mahmod that her life was in danger and instead dismissed the 20-year-old Kurdish woman as being melodramatic.

After her father Mahmod Mahmod, 52, and her uncle Ari Mahmod, 51, were convicted for murder yesterday at the Old Bailey, The Times can reveal that Miss Mahmood had told police on at least four separate occasions that the men were going to kill her because she had fallen in love with a man they disapproved of.

She had even handed them a list of other men who she believed had been ordered to kill her because she was deemed to have shamed the family.

--------------------------------------

The Metropolitan police investigation will examine how PC Cornes dealt with Miss Mahmod as she lay covered in blood after fleeing from her father, who had plied her with drink and tried to kill her.

In evidence to the trial the officer decided that Miss Mahmod was a melodramtic New Year’s Eve drunk. She even considered charging her with criminal damage for breaking a window to escape the attempted murder at her grandmother’s house.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article1918023.ece

Why would they report beatings indeed...

Here in the US, it's underreported but definately not tolerated. An abused woman can get help from the police. So we have statistics.

Your statistics, as in all countries, are never, ever accurate.

We're the foremost empire in the world. Our domestic violence is a matter of stupidity and sexism, and not tinged with religious rhetoric. We seem to have chosen apostasy over faith. Human endeavors are imperfect, as humans are imperfect. But we have managed to transform the context of our social ills into something more academic and psychological than outright spiritual.

So we in the West are more advanced than our Arabic, African and Asian cousins because we are merely stupid and sexist in how we beat and kill our women compared to Arabs, Asians and Africans who do it for religious reasons?

 

[spidergoat]

Yes. We are more advanced. It's one thing to kill some woman because she cheated on you, it's quite another to kill your own daughter for chatting on facebook. That's just insanity. It does seem to be centered in Islamic communities. I think that's because Islam supports an extreme form of patriarchy. It's the same motive behind female circumcision.

 

[Big Chiller]

There is no support for or mention of support for female circumcision in Islam.

 

[Bells]

Yes. We are more advanced. It's one thing to kill some woman because she cheated on you, it's quite another to kill your own daughter for chatting on facebook. That's just insanity.

I'm sorry.

But I would consider both to be insanity.

You think killing someone for cheating on you is "one thing" in that it is somehow understandable? In that you get how that could happen? And you consider yourself more advanced than the Muslim guy who kills his wife for the same reason?

See, we have this thing called divorce. If your wife cheats on you, maybe that would be a better option? Instead of, you know, 'it's one thing to kill some woman because she cheated on you'...?

It does seem to be centered in Islamic communities. I think that's because Islam supports an extreme form of patriarchy. It's the same motive behind female circumcision.

Spider, you just said 'it's one thing to kill some woman because she cheated on you, it's quite another to kill your own daughter for chatting on facebook'..

Are you going to blame Islam for your beliefs that it is 'one thing to kill some woman because she cheated on you'?

 

[Gustav]

oh dear
i guess i am gonna have to sic rufus, my pitbull, on the goatman
oh and does anyone know if he is married? with daughters? dating?
they must be warned

/apprehensive

 

[Hipparchia]

The issue is the terms used by the reporting media.

The sub issue I was addressing was Bells' flawed claim that the police and the courts had described the incident as domestic violence. They didn't. When I see gross inaccuracies in posts I begin to doubt everything that poster has to say on the matter. (I've looked at many of your posts. I believe you hold the same standards.)

 

[S.A.M.]

We're the foremost empire in the world. Our domestic violence is a matter of stupidity and sexism, and not tinged with religious rhetoric. We seem to have chosen apostasy over faith. Human endeavors are imperfect, as humans are imperfect. But we have managed to transform the context of our social ills into something more academic and psychological than outright spiritual.

Seriously, give people a reason to pay mere lip service to God, and they'll take it. For the sake of the species, though, make it a somewhat good reason.

What difference does it make to the abused women if its culture, religion or apostasy?

 

[Bells]

The sub issue I was addressing was Bells' flawed claim that the police and the courts had described the incident as domestic violence. They didn't. When I see gross inaccuracies in posts I begin to doubt everything that poster has to say on the matter. (I've looked at many of your posts. I believe you hold the same standards.)

Where did I say that the police and the courts had addressed this incident as "domestic violence" or anything at all? Allow me to point out something you obviously missed entirely.

I had a neighbour who used to beat the shit out of his wife. Once he threw her our of window, shattering the glass, because, from his screaming, she had smiled too nicely at a workman who'd come to their house to install the airconditioning system. Was that an attempted honour killing? Or domestic violence?

The police treated it as domestic violence, the courts did as well.

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2576982&postcount=12

You do understand this, don't you? That the police and the courts treated the woman being thrown out of her window as domestic violence.

Now, my ex neighbour is obviously not Ms Azad. I was citing an example in the above post. I was not saying that Ms Azad's case was treated as domestic violence by the police and the courts. Do you understand now?

So you were saying about "gross inaccuracies"?

 

[Randwolf]

Wouldn't it be nice if...

Even a simple slap is domestic abuse Geoff. So regardless of what they did, it does amount to domestic abuse. At the end of the day, that is what it is.. domestic violence...

at the end of the day, all domestic violence was reduced to a slap in the face? Either way - male / female or female / male. Too bad that's not the case.

Do you think that spousal abuse statistics vary by religious beliefs? Or, as Tiassa put it, by cultural beliefs, being differentiated from religious dogma? (I happen to think these "cultural" beliefs are highly influenced by the predominate religion, but whatever) Or none of the above? Why? (Assuming we could get accurate statistics, and yes, I grant the abuser is usually male, no matter the source you cite)

 

[S.A.M.]

Do you think that spousal abuse statistics vary by religious beliefs?

Excellent question. But reporting varies even where statistics are available [e.g. only 37% of rape cases are reported in the US - which is also an estimate] so its hard to compare.

 

[Gustav]

what really disgusts me, perhaps more than the act of violence itself, is the failure to prosecute the perps. one really has no recourse to justice when the state sanctions this sort of conduct.

Our domestic violence is a matter of stupidity and sexism, and not tinged with religious rhetoric.

...or based on common law.....rule of thumb

"The husband also, by the old law, might give his wife moderate correction . . . in the same moderation that a man is allowed to correct his apprentices or children. . . . But with us, in the politer reign of Charles the Second [1660-'85], this power of correction began to be doubted; and a wife may now have security of the peace against her husband."

 

[spidergoat]

There is no support for or mention of support for female circumcision in Islam.

Yes there is, it's just not written down.