Handing Out Evidence for God

SetiAlpha6 said:
The Shroud of Turin provides striking evidence that the resurrection of Jesus is very real, and so provides evidence that God is very real.
It has survived very rigorous scientific study and passed all of it.
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How is it possible to pass scientific scrutiny - even in principle?

It is not possible for a material to indicate the identity of a person, unless we have DNA samples.
It's not possible for a material to indicate that it was involved in a resurrection.

The best it can do is be plausible.
 
SetiAlpha6 said:
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This video is a joke.

Skip to 4:45.

"We're going to build a DNA profile based on the physical descriptions of Jesus..."
"On each physical description we will make a white line on the DNA fingerprint that you see..."

Look: a sample of DNA with genes marked on it! There's a gene for crown of thorns!
Untitled-1.png

That's right folks:
- the bearer of the Shroud does not carry a gene for a crown of thorns.
- Jesus also doesn't carry a gene for a crown of thorns.
- therefore Jesus was the shroud bearer.

I wonder, are there people out there whose DNA carries the gene for a crown of thorns? Is it a dominant trait. Are their children born with a crown of thorns? Isn't that tough on the mother?

Gosh, this DNA stuff is hard. That's why we leave it to our priests.
 
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SetiAlpha6 said:
Excellent point, as you and I both know, it certainly has indeed happened with “Holy Sites” and relics, and on and on it goes.

Both sides are guilty as charged.
Thanks so much for making the point sharper!
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What sides?
SetiAlpha6 said:
The Shroud of Turin provides striking evidence that the resurrection of Jesus is very real, and so provides evidence that God is very real.

It has survived very rigorous scientific study and passed all of it.
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No, it didn't. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...er-study-carbon-dating-debunked-a8450101.html
BTW Nobody's been charged with anything.
 
SetiAlpha6 said:
It has survived very rigorous scientific study and passed all of it.
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Makes me wonder where people get these ideas. It's like the creationist claim that scientists are rejecting evolution in droves. Don't you guys look at the other side at all?
 
sideshowbob said:
Makes me wonder where people get these ideas. It's like the creationist claim that scientists are rejecting evolution in droves. Don't you guys look at the other side at all?
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No, they don't. There's no satisfaction in knowing the truth. The dream promises much more.
 
Yeah, just so long as you don't garble the words of the incantation, or sacrifice a blemished bullock, or get a haircut.
 
Jeeves said:
Yeah, just so long as you don't garble the words of the incantation, or sacrifice a blemished bullock, or get a haircut.
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Yes, must strictly adhere to the prescribed rituals. It is the only way one can communicate with the supernatural.
A little blood is often required......gods like blood.
 
SetiAlpha6 said:
There have also been a number of fraudulent claims about discoveries made in the past by unethical scientists seeking only fame and fortune.
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Agreed. But that would seem to describe research on the shroud very well. The vast majority of the researchers who worked on it were believers, who had a strong incentive to find it to be "authentic" - and were assured of fame and fortune from other believers as long as they came to the preordained conclusion.
 
DaveC426913 said:
Skip to 4:45.

"We're going to build a DNA profile based on the physical descriptions of Jesus..."
"On each physical description we will make a white line on the DNA fingerprint that you see..."

Look: a sample of DNA with genes marked on it! There's a gene for crown of thorns!
View attachment 2470

That's right folks:
- the bearer of the Shroud does not carry a gene for a crown of thorns.
- Jesus also doesn't carry a gene for a crown of thorns.
- therefore Jesus was the shroud bearer.

I wonder, are there people out there whose DNA carries the gene for a crown of thorns? Is it a dominant trait. Are their children born with a crown of thorns? Isn't that tough on the mother?

Gosh, this DNA stuff is hard. That's why we leave it to our priests.
Click to expand...

I agree, excellent point, I thought the very same thing. I just take it as a graphic representation only. Thanks!
 
billvon said:
Agreed. But that would seem to describe research on the shroud very well. The vast majority of the researchers who worked on it were believers, who had a strong incentive to find it to be "authentic" - and were assured of fame and fortune from other believers as long as they came to the preordained conclusion.
Click to expand...

I really don’t think this description matches or treats fairly the scientists who actually worked on the Shroud at all. Certainly you would not suggest that the scientists who worked on the carbon dating were like this, would you.

Some of them were very reluctant to even be on the team.

Would you like me to put a list together for you?
 
Write4U said:
Yes, must strictly adhere to the prescribed rituals. It is the only way one can communicate with the supernatural.
A little blood is often required......gods like blood.
Click to expand...

The sacrifices in the Old Testament were only a Shadow or prophesy concerning Jesus Christ. A symbol for the sacrifice He would make for us in the future on the cross. You know that!
 
Jeeves said:
What sides?

No, it didn't. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...er-study-carbon-dating-debunked-a8450101.html
Click to expand...

Thanks for the article! I appreciate it.

The carbon dating is obviously wrong for a number of reasons.

Not the method, the sample that was taken was on the edge, and was a repair made up of linen and cotton.

And there are references to the Shroud that were written far earlier than the carbon date would allow for.

I will look up the name of the scientist on the original team who agreed that the carbon dating had to be off because of the more recent repair sample that was used for the tests. He was not a Christian.

His name was Ray Rogers, there is video of him.
 
Investigators for the Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP) include:

  1. Joseph S. Accetta, Lockheed Corporation* - Infrared spectroscopy
  2. Steven Baumgart, U.S. Air Force Weapons Laboratories* - Infrared spectral measurements
  3. John D. German, U.S. Air Force Weapons Laboratories* - Technical support for all experiments
  4. Ernest H. Brooks II, Brooks Institute of Photography* - Scientific photography
  5. Mark Evans, Brooks Institute of Photography* - Microphotography, photomicroscopy
  6. Vernon D. Miller, Brooks Institute of Photography* - Scientific photography (Deceased)
  7. Robert Bucklin, Harris County,Texas, Medical Examiner's Office -Medical, forensics (Deceased)
  8. Donald Devan, Oceanographic Services Inc.* - Scientific photography, image analysis (Deceased)
  9. Rudolph J. Dichtl, University of Colorado* - Technical support of all experiments
  10. Robert Dinegar, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories* - Chemistry, tape sample removal/analysis (Deceased)
  11. Donald Janney, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories* - Image analysis
  12. Joan Janney Rogers, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories* - Technical support
  13. J. Ronald London, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories* - X-ray radiography and X-ray fluorescence (Deceased)
  14. Roger A. Morris, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories* - X-ray fluorescence (Deceased)
  15. Raymond N. Rogers, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories* - Chemistry, tape sample removal/analysis (Deceased)
  16. Larry Schwalbe, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories - Physics, X-ray fluorescesnce
  17. Diane Soran, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories - Chemistry, Archaeology (Deceased)
  18. Kenneth E. Stevenson, IBM* - Public relations
  19. Al Adler, Western Connecticut State University - Biochemist, tape sample analysis (Deceased)
  20. Thomas F. D'Muhala, Nuclear Technology Corporation* - Logistics
  21. Jim Drusik, Los Angeles County Museum - Conservation
  22. Joseph Gambescia, St. Agnes Medical Center - Medical analysis (Deceased)
  23. Roger Gilbert, Oriel Corporation* - Visible/UV spectroscopy
  24. Marty Gilbert, Oriel Corporation* - Visible/UV spectroscopy
  25. Thomas Haverty, Rocky Mountain Thermograph* - Thermography
  26. John Heller, New England Institute - Biophysics (Deceased)
  27. John P. Jackson, U.S. Air Force Academy* - STURP President, measurements/analysis
  28. Eric J. Jumper, U.S. Air Force Academy* - STURP Vice-president, measurements/analysis
  29. Jean Lorre, Jet Propulsion Laboratory* - Image analysis (Deceased)
  30. Donald J. Lynn, Jet Propulsion Laboratory* - Image analysis (Deceased)
  31. Robert William (Bill) Mottern, Sandia National Laboratory* - Image analysis, X-ray radiography (Deceased)
  32. Samuel Pellicori, Santa Barbara Research Center* - Visible/UV spectroscopy
  33. Barrie M. Schwortz, Barrie Schwortz Studios* - Documentation Photography


Note: The researchers marked with an * participated directly in the 1978 Examination in Turin. All others are STURP research members who worked with the data or samples after the team returned to the United States.
 
naming places doesn't make scientific fact

philosophy deals with ideas, not land marks
land marks are materialist symbology of perception.

note loosing the shoe in the life of Brian


finding a shoe or a mountain does not validate OR invalidate philosophy
 
SetiAlpha6 said:
The sacrifices in the Old Testament were only a Shadow or prophesy concerning Jesus Christ. A symbol for the sacrifice He would make for us in the future on the cross. You know that!
Click to expand...
As I said, Gods like blood and blood sacrifice.

Eating the "flesh" and drinking the "blood" is paying homage to Divinity?
Sounds a little primitive to me.
 
RainbowSingularity said:
naming places doesn't make scientific fact

philosophy deals with ideas, not land marks
land marks are materialist symbology of perception.

note loosing the shoe in the life of Brian


finding a shoe or a mountain does not validate OR invalidate philosophy
Click to expand...

Funny Film Clip, Thanks for the laugh!!!
 
How is it helpful to list all the laboratories that wasted time on this one bogus relic? It was known to be a fake back in the 14th century.
 
SetiAlpha6 said:
I really don’t think this description matches or treats fairly the scientists who actually worked on the Shroud at all. Certainly you would not suggest that the scientists who worked on the carbon dating were like this, would you.
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I didn't say that all scientists agreed. I said "vast majority." The scientists to whom faith was more important have found ways to "adjust" their discoveries.

Look, if believing in the Shroud of Turin is central to your religious faith, then believe away. It's like some people's belief in the Earth being 6000 years old, or that Adam and Eve were the first people, or that climate change isn't happening. I have long since learned the futility in discussing something that is essential to someone's core beliefs. Your need to believe will trump anything that has to do with science, every time.
 
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