"GOD'S GATES: THE NEW HEAVEN'S GATE. New Mass Suicides for 2007.
- Thread starter wanderingstar
- Start date
Bells
Staff member
Yes. I can see the pilgrimage now. The self promoting martyr's carrying their own stakes and tinder with which to alight themselves. Maybe you're right. The world would be a better place without their ability to continue corrupting future generations.Lucysnow said:
Please tell me that you did not just compare Ads to say Martin Luther King. Or possibly Ghandi and Mandella who willingly put themselves in danger to save others and to free the oppressed. Or even the Dalai Lama who led his people out of Tibet and away from possible prosecution and death by the Chinese.Light Travelling said:
Ads is not fighting to social injustice, against oppression or racial hatred. Ads is fighting a battle to put himself in a better light in front of his god so that he is rewarded for his so called work. Now what that work actually is, we are not yet clear. So far I'm thinking that he's trying to convert others to his way of thinking and to save them from burning in a hell that does not exist.. his thinking is that the more he reels in, the better chance he has of getting to heaven. The people in the past did not do it for self gratification and to get closer to god that little bit quicker. King for example did not die willingly. He intended to live to continue fighting against oppression. He did not do it all to put himself in a better light to his god. Now lets look at Ads shall we? The selfish little git only cares about himself and how god will somehow bless him with a nice little spot in heaven and eternal life.
LOL! This link was from Roman in another thread. Maybe you should have a look.Adstar said:
Link
Maybe you should start telling your fellow bible bashers what you just said above. What am I saying, you probably approve of the crap in that clip. I've said before, I'll say it again. You scare the crap out of me. The thought that you breath the same air as my son scares the crap out of me. The thought that you are free and roaming the streets scares the crap out of me.
Bells said:
I was not comparing adstar to anything, my reply to you was not intended to be connected with adstar at all. I simply read your post about there being "no such thing as a martyr" and "anyone who dies for a belief is stupid" and disagreed with it
I do not agree with adstar's views either, but you went too far the other way in above post.
If you wrote, there is no such thing as religious matyrdom specifically to gain access to heaven, as per christian and muslim matyrdom and anyone who commits suicide for these reasons is stupid then I would agree with you.
But as your post reads in general terms I would have to disagree for the examples you mention above plus many more.
As for the general principal of risking ones life or even dying (not deliberately committing suicide) for a higher principal than ones own self survival, well I think that is one of the qualities that make humans human.
And whether that higher principal we hold is a social, political , religious or philosophical one we cant be too judgmental about. Because who can says which of us is right and wrong and where the boundaries of the religious, political , social etc start and end.
Of course as long as it is only our own life that is risked and not those of others and as long as life is not taken to further a belief system.
Using your example of Ghandi, his aims were social and political, his methods based firmly in his religion, all of which can maybe be said to make up his philosophy. Can we really seperate these things apart?
And whether that higher principal we hold is a social, political , religious or philosophical one we cant be too judgmental about. Because who can says which of us is right and wrong and where the boundaries of the religious, political , social etc start and end.
Of course as long as it is only our own life that is risked and not those of others and as long as life is not taken to further a belief system.
Using your example of Ghandi, his aims were social and political, his methods based firmly in his religion, all of which can maybe be said to make up his philosophy. Can we really seperate these things apart?
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Godless said:That is just so pathetic!
Brainwashing has been what has caused wars, and brain washing continues today to start even more wars!!! :bugeye:
The big problem is that so many of us are caught between people like this on one side and the Islamic fundamentalists on the other.
And the ones' on our side are the ones with their finger on the nuclear button(as in the fundamentalist influence on the current US govt)
Here's a link to check out.
A christian minister in texas calling for global war to help speed up biblical prophecy.
http://www.countercurrents.org/us-sikand171105.htm
Bells said:
Why should that video interest me?
What has that video got to do with what we are talking about here?You really are full of fear aren’t you bells. So much so that you cannot read what i have posted with clarity. Your already blinded by your fears, satan will use that fear in the future. The powers that be on this earth always use the fears of fearful people like you.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Bells said:
I don't think Adstar is out on the street. He sits behind a pc protected by the anonymity of the internet. I don't think he really believes the cowpies of reasoning that he tosses out there. He just likes to get people riled up.
That video clip was an eye opener. I got a kick out of the kid who at the beginning said he was 5 when he was saved because he 'wanted more out of life.' Either the kid was a good actor or he was coached as to what to say. Some may equate coaching to brainwashing when it comes to kids. It is possible that the kid knew he had better say the right thing or else. I don't know too many 5 year olds who want more out of life. If ever there was a contrived sentence uttered ...that was it. I think the video lost instant credibility as soon as that kid spoke.
There is no anonymity on the Internet. Not where it counts. The powers that be know everything site your PC has visited on the net and every keystroke you have made while you where there.
If people think the Internet is anonymous then they need to know it is far from it.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
If people think the Internet is anonymous then they need to know it is far from it.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Adstar said:
For the purposes of this forum I think it is safe to say most are anonymous. May the penis enlargement and cialis people never find you.
Anyway Adstar, I expected much more than a lame retort on my ignorance of computer vulnerability. No reference to that giant computer geek in the sky? or was that implied?
What about that Jesus Camp flick? Have you ever heard such a bunch of nonsense in all your life. Recruiting an army of soldiers to fight God's fight? Even the military hasn't posted 'Uncle Sam Wants You' at the local kindergarten.
That flick could just as easily been produced by people against religious education for kids. Propaganda bullshit...not worth two cents to either side of the argument.
Bells
Staff member
I meant religious belief. I thought my post was clear enough in that regard. My apologies for any confusion. Adstar basically stated that he would gladly go to his death to become a martyr so he can get to the joys of eternal life with god that little bit faster. He is not so concerned about any message. His prime motive in committing such an act would be to get to god faster through his death.
No we cannot seperate Ghandi's beliefs and his actions in attempting to liberate his people. But he did not do so out of a selfish need to put himself in a better light with any deity. He did it out of a social consciousness that he had developed and honed when in South Africa.
And in his actions, he never became a martyr. Instead he became a national hero and symbol to what his people could aspire to be.
Sadly, you'll never know because you are blind to the fact that there are hundreds of little children being conditioned to be just like you and to think just as you do.Adstar said:
I have fear that people like you could and do end up harming and/or killing others just to achieve their goal of spreading that religious message. You're damn right I'm scared. And since last weekend, my fear has basically tripled of people who believe as you do. I'll tell you why. I have a cousin who is a religious nut. Believes just as you do. Her whole life has been consumed by serving god. Her idiotic husband is just as bad and she has befriended a woman who is as bad, if not worse than they are. Last weekend there was a family reunion at her house. I went with my son as my husband had a prior engagement. Being an atheist, I have not baptised my son. Now my cousin has taken it into her head that my son and I are at risk of the devil. So on Sunday afternoon, she, her moron of a husband and her cow of a friend took it into their heads to baptise my son to protect him from the devil. I was sitting in the lounge with her sibblings (my other cousins) and their respective spouses and children, my one year old son was playing behind the couch I was sitting in. I had no reason to fear for his safety. We were amongst family who I believed cared for him and would do anything to keep him from harm and the house was safe as kids were running all over the place and he was playing with his cousins as kids normally play together. Sadly I was wrong.
After about 30 seconds, I realised I could no longer hear my one year old behind me. I honestly believed that as the curious and little cyclone he can be, that he'd snuck off to go and break something. So I got up and went looking in the family room where other members of my family were gathered. He was not there. I knew he could not get outside as all the doors were closed and he is too short to open anything as yet. So I headed down the hall way calling his name, when I heard him behind the closed bathroom door sounding a bit distressed. I tried to open the door and found it to be locked. I frankly started to panic really badly as I heard water splashing. I kept trying to open the door and calling his name and he was sounding more and more distressed. By this point, my cousin's sibblings and their spouses and the rest of my family had heard my panicked shouts and by this point I was crying and literally trying to break the door down. One went to look for my cousin (who the sister to the religious nut) to see if there was a way to open the door from the outside, while several of the others were trying to break the lock to get in. And then in all the panicked sounds I heard praying inside the bathroom. My cousin, her husband and friend had filled up the bathtub, had stripped my beautiful one year old son down and had been trying to baptise him in the bathtub. Not by dribbling some water on his head, but by doing the full immersion baptism.. ie, tipping him backwards and having the water cover him completely, even his head. We witnessed this when the door was unlocked by my cousin, just as her bitch of a friend immersed my baby in the water, all while reciting prayers and my son was by this point hysterical. He does not like his head being underwater, a reason we had to stop his swimming lessons as he'd panic and start choking when under water. My cousin and co had been trying to baptise my son.
The only thing that saved them from my calling the police and having them charged was the look on their 14year old's son face. He was devastated. I took my son and left the house and she, her husband and friend will never ever see me or my son again. Our whole family has been devastated by what she did and I can say with certainty I will never ever forgive her.
And you wonder why people like you cause me to feel fear? People like you and my cousin make me sick to my stomach.
If you are a true atheist then stupid ceremonial shit like baptism shouldn't bother you. So what if the kid gets baptized, it doesn't mean anything if there is no god. Let the dorks do their thing if it means peace and tranquility for the family. I hardly think a 1 year old knows what is going on.
I let our kids get baptized just to keep the in-laws quiet....it didn't mean anything to my wife and I. Hell, we even got married in a Catholic church and because I wasn't raised a Catholic I had to sign a piece of paper saying I'd raise my kids as Catholics. You know what, I signed it because it meant nothing but the in-laws thought it was the cat's ass.
It's not that I respected their faith, it was knowing that none of that mumbo-jumbo bullshit meant anything. My kid's have never set foot in a church and the in-laws really don't care. The ceremony is the thing...get over the religious stigma attached to it and look at it as if you were witnessing a flashback of primitive man. A lot of that crap is stuff handed down for centuries, it's just a bunch of hocus pocus.
I let our kids get baptized just to keep the in-laws quiet....it didn't mean anything to my wife and I. Hell, we even got married in a Catholic church and because I wasn't raised a Catholic I had to sign a piece of paper saying I'd raise my kids as Catholics. You know what, I signed it because it meant nothing but the in-laws thought it was the cat's ass.
It's not that I respected their faith, it was knowing that none of that mumbo-jumbo bullshit meant anything. My kid's have never set foot in a church and the in-laws really don't care. The ceremony is the thing...get over the religious stigma attached to it and look at it as if you were witnessing a flashback of primitive man. A lot of that crap is stuff handed down for centuries, it's just a bunch of hocus pocus.
Bells
Staff member
I see.
So they snuck your child off without your knowledge or consent, locked him up in a bathroom, filled a bathtub and then pushed your child down under the water? You'd have accepted that kind of thing from your family just to keep the peace? My what a pushover you are.
I don't particularly give a flying crap about the notion of a baptism. My husband and I have stated our wish that our children (yes I am pregnant with our second) decide for themselves when they are adults. We are both atheists and both of our respective parents have accepted our decision and frankly realise that it is up to us to decide. What we did not expect was that my cousin would lock my son up in her bathroom and attempt to hold him under water while reciting a bunch of crap prayers about protecting him from evil. They even attempted to hold myself and her brother back when we rushed in to grab my son from under the water. That is how far it went. As soon as that door opened I and several members of our family were already piling into the bathroom and she and her husband actually tried to hold myself and her brother back as her friend held my son under the water while they prayed about the devil.
That was not just a baptism, it looked and felt like some kind of demented exorcism. I am sorry if you are willing to put up with that kind of behaviour from your family just to keep the peace. But where my son's safety is concerned, I will not bow down to any individual just to 'keep the peace' regardless of the fact that the individual is a family member of mine. The peace can kiss my arse as far as I am concerned in this matter. Maybe it was better my husband was not there. He was incensed when he found out what happened and I thought he was literally about to get in the car to go and wring her neck. The only reasons we have not pressed charges is because of their 14 year old son, who was devastated by what they did. I don't think he realised that their religious obsession (which appeared to have passed him by as he just ignores them half the time) had gotten to the point where they have the need to do what they did to my son.
So they snuck your child off without your knowledge or consent, locked him up in a bathroom, filled a bathtub and then pushed your child down under the water? You'd have accepted that kind of thing from your family just to keep the peace? My what a pushover you are.
I don't particularly give a flying crap about the notion of a baptism. My husband and I have stated our wish that our children (yes I am pregnant with our second) decide for themselves when they are adults. We are both atheists and both of our respective parents have accepted our decision and frankly realise that it is up to us to decide. What we did not expect was that my cousin would lock my son up in her bathroom and attempt to hold him under water while reciting a bunch of crap prayers about protecting him from evil. They even attempted to hold myself and her brother back when we rushed in to grab my son from under the water. That is how far it went. As soon as that door opened I and several members of our family were already piling into the bathroom and she and her husband actually tried to hold myself and her brother back as her friend held my son under the water while they prayed about the devil.
That was not just a baptism, it looked and felt like some kind of demented exorcism. I am sorry if you are willing to put up with that kind of behaviour from your family just to keep the peace. But where my son's safety is concerned, I will not bow down to any individual just to 'keep the peace' regardless of the fact that the individual is a family member of mine. The peace can kiss my arse as far as I am concerned in this matter. Maybe it was better my husband was not there. He was incensed when he found out what happened and I thought he was literally about to get in the car to go and wring her neck. The only reasons we have not pressed charges is because of their 14 year old son, who was devastated by what they did. I don't think he realised that their religious obsession (which appeared to have passed him by as he just ignores them half the time) had gotten to the point where they have the need to do what they did to my son.
Call me a pushover if you want. You have a situation there that I don't have. No one was kidnapped, forced or coerced because we played the game. We went along with it, I nearly broke out in laughter a few times but what difference did it make. If you don't believe in religious rites and ceremonies as we do then why should it bother you.
Is your child worse for wear? Was it worth all the hassle? We weighed the positives and negatives and decide it wasn't worth starting WWIII over anything as ridiculous as religious bullshit. Shit, i'd wager half the churches in North America are half-filled by people who would rather be somewhere else...why? to keep the peace.
Right now an atheist has to take a logical approach...is it better to split the family or fake things just to keep some harmony? Sacramental rage isn't the answer. If you had a job that paid 6 figures and your boss was a devout Christian would you announce your atheism and risk the quality of life you have attained by remaining quiet about the subject? No different than families. In-laws grow old, people move away. people die, jobs change, people split up, become addicts, drunks, recluses, whatever....nothing for the moment ever remains status quo. Simply put, keep the peace...no religious garbage is ever worth losing something you may regret later.
Is your child worse for wear? Was it worth all the hassle? We weighed the positives and negatives and decide it wasn't worth starting WWIII over anything as ridiculous as religious bullshit. Shit, i'd wager half the churches in North America are half-filled by people who would rather be somewhere else...why? to keep the peace.
Right now an atheist has to take a logical approach...is it better to split the family or fake things just to keep some harmony? Sacramental rage isn't the answer. If you had a job that paid 6 figures and your boss was a devout Christian would you announce your atheism and risk the quality of life you have attained by remaining quiet about the subject? No different than families. In-laws grow old, people move away. people die, jobs change, people split up, become addicts, drunks, recluses, whatever....nothing for the moment ever remains status quo. Simply put, keep the peace...no religious garbage is ever worth losing something you may regret later.
Bells
Staff member
You'd have been happy if they baptised your child without your consent? What they did went beyond a baptism. They did not take him to church as one would in a normal baptism. There was no priest there. Instead they took him to their bathroom, stripped him naked and held him under water while reciting a bunch of mumbo jumbo. They all knew what my wishes as well as my husband's were. My whole family knows I am an atheist. This particular cousin has gone so far as to call me a heathen and demon because of the fact I simply do not believe. But I let it go, just to keep the peace.
However, when someone takes my child, strips him naked and holds him under water as part of some perveted religious practice, without my consent or knowledge, then I believe I have a right to be angry and upset. When they attempt to prevent me from stopping them, then I believe I have a right to be angry and upset.
No one in my family had asked that I baptise my child. They asked me if I was going to do it, and when I said no, that was the end of the matter. I know my parents were not happy about it, but they respected my decision and that was that. If you are willing to bend over backwards and suspend what you think is right just to maintain the peace, then so be it. But next time a member of your family does what my cousin did to my son, see how you'd react. As far as I and my husband are concerned, we never want to lay eyes on her again. It is one thing to respect another person and their beliefs or lack of and merely just let things slide to keep the peace. It is another thing altogether to have someone not only go against your wishes, but totally disrespect what your wishes are and do something as bad as what she has done. Family or no family, peace or no peace, there are some things which are totally unaccpetable. She has not only abused my trust, our relationship, our family bond and my wishes, but she has also abused my son in what she did.
When I read some of what Ads says in this and other threads, I sometimes think he and my cousin might be the same person. Their beliefs and what and how they say it is so similar, it actually sends chills up my spine. She too often ranted about about how dying to spread the word would put her closer to god. Now I realise she would do anything to 'save' someone from what she perceives as the devil.
However, when someone takes my child, strips him naked and holds him under water as part of some perveted religious practice, without my consent or knowledge, then I believe I have a right to be angry and upset. When they attempt to prevent me from stopping them, then I believe I have a right to be angry and upset.
No one in my family had asked that I baptise my child. They asked me if I was going to do it, and when I said no, that was the end of the matter. I know my parents were not happy about it, but they respected my decision and that was that. If you are willing to bend over backwards and suspend what you think is right just to maintain the peace, then so be it. But next time a member of your family does what my cousin did to my son, see how you'd react. As far as I and my husband are concerned, we never want to lay eyes on her again. It is one thing to respect another person and their beliefs or lack of and merely just let things slide to keep the peace. It is another thing altogether to have someone not only go against your wishes, but totally disrespect what your wishes are and do something as bad as what she has done. Family or no family, peace or no peace, there are some things which are totally unaccpetable. She has not only abused my trust, our relationship, our family bond and my wishes, but she has also abused my son in what she did.
When I read some of what Ads says in this and other threads, I sometimes think he and my cousin might be the same person. Their beliefs and what and how they say it is so similar, it actually sends chills up my spine. She too often ranted about about how dying to spread the word would put her closer to god. Now I realise she would do anything to 'save' someone from what she perceives as the devil.
I agree ...you're cousin crossed the line and she is most definitely whacked. You can equate her actions to whats happening in the world right now, force your religion on as many as you can because eventually we're all going to meet in a apocalyptic battle and kill each other to prove our god, even though they are one and the same , is better than your god.
Ads on the other hand is I suspect, a charlatan. Phoney as they come. I think he admires the way he can stir up an audience with just a bunch of goofy well placed words.
Ads on the other hand is I suspect, a charlatan. Phoney as they come. I think he admires the way he can stir up an audience with just a bunch of goofy well placed words.
I wish to reply to this post. Not that i think it will have any affect on bells but for those who may be reading along and are not filled with blinding illogical fear as bells is.
Firstly i do not believe in taking another persons life for God. So bells statement:
Has absolutly no foundation to stand on in regards to me. If i was to kill another person for my God then i would be in rebellion against the will of my God and therefore would not be a follower of my God.
Secondly Bells states that i am the same as her relatives who baptised his son. This is also wrong.
Firstly: i do not believe in infant baptism as her relatives clearly do.
Secondly: i do not believe in forced baptisms
Thirdly: I believe that water baptism is not the saving act but belief and acceptance of Jesus as ones Redeemer is the saving act. Without belief water baptism means naught.
Final point: I believe bells baby son does not need saving until the time he reaches the age of understanding. babies do not need saving.
I hope bells overcomes her paralysing fear that has warped her judgement and he can one day communicate and understand, unhindered by the fear that blinds her.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
what about smoking cigerrettes?
Yes, you had a right to be pissed off!! They violated your privacy and that of your child and had no right whatsoever to do that. Yep, they should consider themselves lucky you did not call the police.
It's nutcases like these that motivated me to follow another spiritual path in life.