"GOD'S GATES: THE NEW HEAVEN'S GATE. New Mass Suicides for 2007.

wanderingstar

Registered Member
It would seem to have the potential to do so. To do what? To commit mass suicide on March 29 of 2007, exactly 10 years after the targic mass suicide of a UFO cult that called itself "Heaven's Gate". Well, this is a sister cult to Heaven's Gate. What's a sister cult.? A sister cult is a group that has alot of things in common with another group. God's Gates favor Heaven's Gate doctrines and verbally smash anybody who opposes them or Heaven's Gate, calling the opposers as Satanic. http://webspawner.com/users/thegatesoffoxmulder/ is the URL of the God's Gates website. This is a two paged website that has disclaimers and scary reasoning on it. Page 2 gives some startling reasoning as to WHY it is okay for a member of their cult OR a member of Heaven's Gate to commit suicide. But, they claim, anybody outside of their group who kills themselves is doomed to resurrect as gases that rise from corpses.

Since the leader of the group, J. Stenwick, hails Heaven's Gate and Applewhie as heroes PLUS an agreement of the reasoning behind suicide, then it would be possible to 'assume' that they too plan on leaving this universe on 2007.

Any thoughts?

Wandering Star
 
Yes it seems very possible. All you need is a warped Charismatic leader and people who want to believe it.

There have been mass suicides in the past and no doubt there will be mass suicides in the future. Such is the way of the world.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Yes it seems very possible. All you need is a warped Charismatic leader and people who want to believe it

And what, pray tell, is the main tenet of christianity? That the leader will come back and everyone will die. For some bizarre reason people have wanted to believe this for millennia. Upon that death you will rise again and do something - clearly without all that you hold dear in this life - and that you, my dear Adstar, will rise again to wonderful life while the rest of us will burn forever.

Sorry, don't let me interrupt, what were you saying about being warped?
 
Yes. Surely it was a tragic thing that some wierdos killed themselves. They had contributed so much to society. Yeah.
 
Adstar said:
Yes it seems very possible. All you need is a warped Charismatic leader and people who want to believe it.

Haha! Funniest case of pots and kettles I've seen on this forum.
 
SnakeLord said:
And what, pray tell, is the main tenet of christianity? That the leader will come back and everyone will die. For some bizarre reason people have wanted to believe this for millennia. Upon that death you will rise again and do something - clearly without all that you hold dear in this life - and that you, my dear Adstar, will rise again to wonderful life while the rest of us will burn forever.

Sorry, don't let me interrupt, what were you saying about being warped?


Ummm this thread is about mass suicide and cults that promote suicide as a legitimate avenue. Christianity has always been against suicide. The atheist euthanasia movement has more in common with these cults then Christianity does.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Why is it that slashing your wrist et al is suicide yet allowing someone to kill you without lifting a finger in order to obey the prime directive, thou shalt not kill, is not? In other words to allow yourself to die for religious reasons, even though you might have been able to prevent it, is not considered suicide....am I missing something here?
 
Ummm this thread is about mass suicide and cults that promote suicide as a legitimate avenue. Christianity has always been against suicide. The atheist euthanasia movement has more in common with these cults then Christianity does.

Could it be argued that given christian beliefs that "the end is nigh" and that the saviour will come to kill everyone very soon, that suicide isn't really needed - and that eskimos and atheists and whoever else it is that goes around killing people for no good reason, are wasting their time given that we'll all be dead very soon anyway? I mean c'mon, mass suicide or mass death all result in the exact same thing - the cultists just saved your god the hassle of doing the job. Why is it that religion and cults always end up with mass human death?
 
It’s all about the intent. A suicide seeks to take control of their moment of death. The act of suicide centres on a desire to die.

Being a martyr on the other hand involves the primary desire to give the Gospel message. The intent of the Martyr is not to go out and find someone that they hope will kill them for preaching the Gospel. Becoming a martyr can be a job hazard that comes with giving the Gospel message. We are permitted to attempt to flee from death if God gives us the opportunity.

So a Christian should not have a goal of becoming a martyr, but they should be willing to die as a martyr if necessary.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Adstar said:
Ummm this thread is about mass suicide and cults that promote suicide as a legitimate avenue. Christianity has always been against suicide.
...

Incorrect.

There is no injunction against suicide in Christian theology.
The injunction came from, and is particular to the Christian Church.
 
Christianity seems to view life on Earth to be insignificant when compared to an eternal time of peace and happiness in the after life. This view needs an admonition against suicide to avoid extreme loss of membership.
 
The notion of making spiritual advancement by suicide is complete nonsense

CC Antya 4.55: "My dear Sanātana," He said, "if I could attain Kṛṣṇa by committing suicide, I would certainly give up millions of bodies without a moment's hesitation.

CC Antya 4.56: "You should know that one cannot attain Kṛṣṇa simply by giving up the body. Kṛṣṇa is attainable by devotional service. There is no other means for attaining Him.

CC Antya 4.57: "Acts such as suicide are influenced by the mode of ignorance, and in ignorance and passion one cannot understand who Kṛṣṇa is.

CC Antya 4.58: "Unless one discharges devotional service, one cannot awaken one's dormant love for Kṛṣṇa, and there is no means for attaining Him other than awakening that dormant love.

CC Antya 4.59: [The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, said:] "My dear Uddhava, neither through aṣṭāńga-yoga [the mystic yoga system for controlling the senses], nor through impersonal monism or an analytical study of the Absolute Truth, nor through study of the Vedas, nor through austerities, charity or acceptance of sannyāsa can one satisfy Me as much as by developing unalloyed devotional service unto Me."

CC Antya 4.60: "Measures like suicide are causes for sin. A devotee never achieves shelter at Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet by such actions.
 
lightgigantic said:
The notion of making spiritual advancement by suicide is complete nonsense....
According to the religion you follow, perhaps. Not everyone follows the same religion.
Or has your time on this board shown you nothing in that regard??
 
Sarkus said:
According to the religion you follow, perhaps. Not everyone follows the same religion.
Or has your time on this board shown you nothing in that regard??

I never said that everything that goes down in the name of religion is bonafide, much like you would be hesitant to saythat everything that goes down in the name of science is bonafide
 
Adstar said:
It’s all about the intent. A suicide seeks to take control of their moment of death. The act of suicide centres on a desire to die.

Being a martyr on the other hand involves the primary desire to give the Gospel message. The intent of the Martyr is not to go out and find someone that they hope will kill them for preaching the Gospel. Becoming a martyr can be a job hazard that comes with giving the Gospel message. We are permitted to attempt to flee from death if God gives us the opportunity.

So a Christian should not have a goal of becoming a martyr, but they should be willing to die as a martyr if necessary.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
I find this to be deeply disturbing.

Are you serious?

You'd willingly give your life for your religion or to spread the message of your religion? What if spreading the word would also mean that others would have to die for the cause? You'd be willing to die and take others out with you just to spread that message? Would you be willing to die if you knew that doing so would result in others dying or suffering?

And after you've died a martyr, what then? How can you keep spreading the 'word' if you are dead? How much of a martyr would you be if you accidently take out innocent lives in the process of your martyrdom? How forgiving would your god be if you killed others in your willingness to die spreading his word or 'gospel'?

There is no such thing as being a martyr. What there is are people who are willing to go to extremes for their beliefs and stupid enough to allow themselves to die for said beliefs. No one should be willing to die to spread any message. I will say I would put myself in harms way to save my child (eg push him out of way if a truck was coming towards him or something like that.. call me an over protective parent but I doubt any parent would sit back and watch their child die without trying to do something to save them, but I wouldn't die willingly), but I'd never give my life to spread someone's message. Give me a break Ads, your statement shows that religion can in its entirety be dangerous to society, especially when we have people who say that a person should be willing to die and become a martyr if necessary.
 
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Bells said:
I find this to be deeply disturbing.

Are you serious?

Yes, why would i say it if i was not serious? Do you think this is a joke.



You'd willingly give your life for your religion or to spread the message of your religion?

Yes.



What if spreading the word would also mean that others would have to die for the cause? You'd be willing to die and take others out with you just to spread that message? Would you be willing to die if you knew that doing so would result in others dying or suffering?

I am a bit confused here. Are you suggesting that i would kill others? I am not a muslim i am a Christian. A Christian martyr does not kill others. A Christian martyr becomes one when he is killed.



And after you've died a martyr, what then? How can you keep spreading the 'word' if you are dead?

There are plenty more where i came from. God can raise up messengers from wherever and whenever He wants. If i die as a martyr i get an early mark into eternity with God, and that beats living in this world for sure. :)



How much of a martyr would you be if you accidently take out innocent lives in the process of your martyrdom? How forgiving would your god be if you killed others in your willingness to die spreading his word or 'gospel'?

Once again i think your getting Christian martyrdom mixed up with islamic martyrdom, two very different species.



There is no such thing as being a martyr.

Yes there are. Stephenwas the first but many have benn added to him down throughout the ages and many are being added today.



No one should be willing to die to spread any message.

Well many disagree with you. If you have the truth you should be willing to die for it. People are willing to die for a lot less things than their faith.



I will say I would put myself in harms way to save my child (eg push him out of way if a truck was coming towards him or something like that.. call me an over protective parent but I doubt any parent would sit back and watch their child die without trying to do something to save them, but I wouldn't die willingly), but I'd never give my life to spread someone's message.

It's good that you are willing to die for someone you love (your child) But We Christians are called on to Love all men and be willing to die for their salvation. That is why we are willing to die for spreading the message of Jesus.



Give me a break Ads, your statement shows that religion can in its entirety be dangerous to society, especially when we have people who say that a person should be willing to die and become a martyr if necessary.

How can someone who is willing to be killed be a danger to society? Only a person who is willing to kill for their religion could be a danger to a society. Once again your are getting Christian martyrdom mixed up with islamic martyrdom. We do not kill others for our God, but we are prepared to be killed for our God. Just as Jesus was prepared to be killed for all mankind even those who murdered Him.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Adstar said:
Yes, why would i say it if i was not serious? Do you think this is a joke.
Yes.

Ermm ok.

I am a bit confused here. Are you suggesting that i would kill others? I am not a muslim i am a Christian. A Christian martyr does not kill others. A Christian martyr becomes one when he is killed.
There is no distinction. There is martyrdom and there is martyrdom. Both are one and the same, regardless of your religion.

What I was asking was that if your dying for your message, would mean that others would also die along with you, would you still do it? What if your death causes the death of others, would you still be willing to become a martyr?

There are plenty more where i came from.
That is what frightens me.

God can raise up messengers from wherever and whenever He wants. If i die as a martyr i get an early mark into eternity with God, and that beats living in this world for sure.
Good grief you are serious! You seem offended by the thought that you are somehow different from Islamic martyr's or martyrs of other religions, but you are not. All martyrs are one and the same. Extremists who are willing to die to make sure their message gets across to the masses. In the end the masses will remember you for 2 days and then get on with their own lives. Where does that leave you? Dead as a doorknob. Dead for no good reason, other than for your own selfish reasons because you think your actions will get you to god earlier.

Once again i think your getting Christian martyrdom mixed up with islamic martyrdom, two very different species.
No they are not. You wish to distinguish your own brand of martyrdom as being different, as though you are somehow better. But at the end of the day both are exactly the same.

Yes there are. Stephenwas the first but many have benn added to him down throughout the ages and many are being added today.
I dont see martyrdom. I see idiots fulfilling what they think is some sort of warped prophecy that does not exist other than in their own minds. It is people like you that make me sometimes think that religious nutters should be locked up forever, because you pose a danger not only to yourself, but to others in your self deluded fantasy that you are somehow doing gods work through means of violence to not only yourself but to others as well.

You might think that if you one day die as a martyr that you wouldn't be harming anyone else but merely spreading the message, but I disagree. You'd be harming those left behind to pick up the mess of your death. There'd be those who might be unwilling witnesses to your untimely demise who would be harmed. The list can go on and on in how your supposed martyrdom could harm others not just physically but mentally. But I realise that listing them would probably make you more enamoured at the thought of becoming a martyr because you'd think the message would be spread even more. Pathetic!

Well many disagree with you. If you have the truth you should be willing to die for it. People are willing to die for a lot less things than their faith.
No if I had the truth, I'd be more willing to remain alive to spread it. Because if you have the so called truth and you are dead, you are not exactly in a position to spread it. Yes people are willing to die for less than their faith. Some are willing to die for others they love. Some are willing to die for tangible things and truths. Not for their own self deluded fantasy of getting to god quicker.

It's good that you are willing to die for someone you love (your child) But We Christians are called on to Love all men and be willing to die for their salvation. That is why we are willing to die for spreading the message of Jesus.
Is that why Jesus cried out to his father about being foresaken? From all stories told of the so called crucifixion, the boy was not happy about being let down by his father.

How can someone who is willing to be killed be a danger to society? Only a person who is willing to kill for their religion could be a danger to a society. Once again your are getting Christian martyrdom mixed up with islamic martyrdom. We do not kill others for our God, but we are prepared to be killed for our God. Just as Jesus was prepared to be killed for all mankind even those who murdered Him.
Again, martyrdom is martyrdom. There is no religious distinction for people who are crazy enough to die for their god or to get a particular message across. The means by which they achieve their goal might be different but the reason and the message they are trying to spread is one and the same.. they all do it for god, to spread their gods message and to be blessed by their god and to get to heaven and eternal life that little bit quicker. You know what? You actually scare the crap out of me. The thought that there are people like you roaming the street scares me.
 
Adstar said:
Then i will not bother answering your points.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Did I think you were joking? In all honesty yes I did. But then as I read through the rest of the post I realised that you were not. But it's ok Ads. I understand that you are probably unable to answer them.
 
Bells said:
Did I think you were joking? In all honesty yes I did. But then as I read through the rest of the post I realised that you were not. But it's ok Ads. I understand that you are probably unable to answer them.


Indeed.
One doesn't go to an asylum to practice quantificational logic.

:)
 
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