God's commandment?

[jayleew]

*************
M*W: No stones cry out. The biblical record is beyond wrong. Jesus doesn't exist in history. He only exists in allegory. Why is it so hard for you people to believe reality? There was no Jesus. There was no salvation. There is no atonement according to christianity. Christianity is not a religion... It's a false entity. Why can't you people see it for what it is?

You don't bother reading anything that a theist provides. You are so wrapped up in your own truth that you can't even recognize a figure of speech. Your kind are deadly, it is a good thing you do not believe in God. You would be a zealot who spouts the word of God, doesn't live it, and shuts down all reason in the face of opposition. Anything with the word "religion" associated with it, you do not hear.

 

[SnakeLord]

Sure, I was brainwashed as a child as a Christian, but I rebelled. Now I believe because I choose to.

Gotta love this sentence.. I was once brainwashed but not anymore. No seriously, I'm not!

Lol.

 

[jayleew]

Gotta love this sentence.. I was once brainwashed but not anymore. No seriously, I'm not!

Lol.

SL, we are all brainwashed by our senses.

But, to answer you, I told my wife years ago, "Maria, I really don't think God exists." after breaking free from my brainwashing. Some of you might call it a temporary lapse of reason. All joking aside, I am convinced that there is a God by God. But, unfortunately, I am skeptical of everything, including my own senses. I am wary of anything that I think of as a truth because I have been taught by life that no one really knows anything about anything. We make systems that work precisely. We understand the way things work in our own systems and manipulate the things to work. But, we don't understand the systems. We understand gravity, but we don't know how it works. That gives room for Chaos theory. We are fallible, so I don't trust anything we claim we know...even if that is that a God exists. I don't trust my own pastor. I know he walks the walk and he encourages me, but I know he is fallible.

So, if compelling evidence were to surface, I am reasonable...and I will assimilate the evidence into my truths....into my own current systems of reality. It is a curse to have this struggle of reason. I would rather be ignorant and in bliss of my brainwashed self. I just wish everyone was as skeptical of everything as me. I feel alone in a sea of close-minded people who are Christians, atheists, agnostics, etc. Everyone is so certain of what they believe as the truth. There is truth, but we as humans have not found it, and I doubt we will ever. So, I'm left with making a call based on the evidence. God showed me evidence of his existence. Science shows me the evidence of nature's ability to adapt, even if that means evolving. Both theories can work against one another, or together. I don't know if they are opposing or not, but I am convinced there is a God.

It would be better to believe in God and live in a Rastarian-ish lifestyle (at least the peace, love, and happiness) for the greater good than to not believe and live for myself, and maybe lose something called a soul that I was wrong about. Since I am such a skeptical person, this choice is the best, and nothing is certain to me. This way is evidenced. It is risk free besides losing my life. It is the best way. There is too much pain in the world. Too much anger down the halls of a low-income apartment complex. Too much suffering all because of selfishness. I refuse to live that way like so many others around me, in the face of my own desires to be selfish. And the only way to live selflessly, is to live for something else.

I will live as the tree does. Unnoticed, but a necessary part of all life...doing my small part, and shading those who are near me.

 

[SnakeLord]

God showed me evidence of his existence

If you were even half as skeptical as you claim to be, this could just as easily be put down to voices in the head. You say you're a skeptic, but you don't mean it.

It would be better to believe in God and live in a Rastarian-ish lifestyle (at least the peace, love, and happiness) for the greater good than to not believe and live for myself, and maybe lose something called a soul that I was wrong about.

It's a false understanding. The odds of picking the correct god are around 2 million to 1. No-one who knows anything about gambling would dare touch such odds. You have seemingly done so with ease. You get the wrong god and you might just find yourself suffering a eternity of pain far worse than any non-believer would ever suffer.

But this is not about gambling, (which is what you have done). This is about honesty - to yourself. Do not think for one second that not believing in specific sky beings makes you any less of a person.

While I respect the fact that you responded to me, I would ask that you take the time to make an honest post. You tried so hard to tell me just how much of a skeptic you are, while showing the opposite to be true with every other sentence you made.

 

[(Q)]

What you or I perceive as a moral act has nothing to do with whether it is in fact a moral, merciful act.

Then, if we are all unable to perceive a moral act, and acknowledge it, morality means nothing. And that is the flaw in your statement. Morality is yielded from sociology, therefore we as humans define our moralities based on our relationships with one another.

I know some children who would be better off if their parents did die.

That has nothing to do with the children whose parents DID die, and WERE better off WITH them. That is a strawman.

Unless you are completely off your rocker, and I doubt you are, you'll whole-heartedly agree that an event which leaves children orphaned is not a moral act, regardless of the circumstances. On the other hand, you MUST justify the act as moral if you are to uphold your belief system.

Sure, it makes more sense if you have no evidence of God's existence.

I don't and neither do you. That is the point exactly.

I trust him because he made a promise to me that in spite of what I deserve, he will take me as I am.

No, he won't. You are fodder in his eyes, to be swept away in a cataclysmic event, justified in a just and moral act, one that you yourself previously and completely accepted as moral.

HEHE. The only Christians you are making an example of are the self-proclaiming ones.

hehe. You are ALL self-proclaimed Christians.

Let's see a Muslim go against the grain and stop believing in God like I did.

It's already happened, so what?

The only reason I would claim my life by Allah is because I was brainwashed.

So, instead, its Jesus.

Sure, I was brainwashed as a child as a Christian, but I rebelled. Now I believe because I choose to.

I'm sitting here wondering if you actually read what you wrote?

It's like a weird version of Stockholm Syndrome.

 

[jayleew]

If you were even half as skeptical as you claim to be, this could just as easily be put down to voices in the head. You say you're a skeptic, but you don't mean it.

SL,

Why do you assume that I have voices in my head? Why does God have to speak at all to prove his existence? I have only heard what I thought to be God once or twice in 29 years. But, I am skeptical of those instances, so those are not evidence to me.

It's a false understanding. The odds of picking the correct god are around 2 million to 1. No-one who knows anything about gambling would dare touch such odds. You have seemingly done so with ease. You get the wrong god and you might just find yourself suffering a eternity of pain far worse than any non-believer would ever suffer.

All religions are myths, including Christianity. A myth does not imply that a belief is not based on a true event...it is the opposite.

Or are all Gods the same God, from different cultural, warped perspectives (myths)? For instance if we both saw the same event, both you and I would get two different things out of it. For example, if a meteor hit the Earth, I might recount the event, talking about how God sent the meteor to save humanity...whereas another person of a different religion would say that it was to punish the unbelievers. And if you believe in God in a different way from a different perspective, do you believe in the same God as someone with a different perspective? So, is it safe to believe in any God? I would say no, but still it is possible that if there is a god, that both perspectives are myths.

As far as gambling...if Christinity didn't exist, I would not believe in God. I don't want any part of any other religion, not because it conflicts with mine, but because of what they teach. They teach irrational beliefs like reincarnation. Some are tyrannical, like Islam. Some are just scams, like scientology. I just don't want a part of anything that doesn't give me the freedom to choose, and the one that is the most agnostic. We can weed out all the crap and come up with a handful of plausible religions, for that matter. And if I have chosen wrong, then throw me in a lake of fire because some religions like Islam do not fit within my set of morality. I accept the consequences of choosing the wrong God because I reject all other beliefs because of the unreasonable things they teach. Who is to say what a god would want, but I doubt that they would take to human rituals with any measure. Christianity broke many rules of Jewish tradition and Jesus Christ told me that morality is subjective by telling me that all the commandments can be summed up into two, in the Gospel. If there is a god, it would should only desire two things, or it is not a god that I want to worship, and I accept any consequences.

If, by chance, I have chose the wrong one it would be the same as if I hadn't believed, only I would have had a life with the most content.

I believe there is only one God, and all similar myths carry a version of the one truth....and it is my opinion that Christianity is the myth that is closest to the truth.

But this is not about gambling, (which is what you have done). This is about honesty - to yourself. Do not think for one second that not believing in specific sky beings makes you any less of a person.

While I respect the fact that you responded to me, I would ask that you take the time to make an honest post. You tried so hard to tell me just how much of a skeptic you are, while showing the opposite to be true with every other sentence you made.

No, I once did not believe in the myth of Christianity, so to think that anyone who doesn't is less of a person, that is to say I was less of a person. I am more wiser today and a better person, but that isn't because of my belief in a myth. In fact, most forms of atheism and agnosticism are reasonable beliefs that I can respect and appreciate the mind of those who do not believe in God for the reason of the evidence.

I was looking on wikipedia for some insight on philosophies and to better give you an understanding of my belief, I believe I fit somewhere around agnostic theist.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

jayleew: You don't bother reading anything that a theist provides.
*************
M*W: You're wrong. Before you can refute something, you must know what is not true.
*************
jayleew: You are so wrapped up in your own truth that you can't even recognize a figure of speech.
*************
M*W: You're wrapped up in "your own truth," too. Why should I not be allowed to be wrapped up in mine? That's the problem with you christians. You want us to believe what you believe, but most of us have already been there, done that, and refuted it.
*************
jayleew: Your kind are deadly, it is a good thing you do not believe in God.
*************
M*W: These are not the words of a good human being who happens to believe in a religion. It shows who you really are inside. You are weak, a failure, and easily intimidated by those who are more intelligent than you. (That would include everyone else on this forum). You believe in false theology and false hope. You believe in gold Egyptian chariot wheels at the bottom of the Red Sea. You believe Noah's Ark was found (and you have proof). You believe that there was a burning bush on Mount Horeb. But you don't even know where the fuck the route of the Exodus was, because it simply didn't happen. It's all bunk. The Exodus was more likely a transit of planets in the zodiac. But, you're right about one thing. Yes, I am deadly. I am deadly to people like you who are already lost and drowning in their own ignorance.
*************
jayleew: You would be a zealot who spouts the word of God, doesn't live it, and shuts down all reason in the face of opposition. Anything with the word "religion" associated with it, you do not hear.
*************
M*W: Quite the contrary. It is you who are the zealot of a false religion and a false god. It is you who does not hear. Go back and read your bible, and get back to me with the total number of references you find for the planets, stars, suns, moons, signs, houses, constellations, elements, transits, movements, and so on. You can't do it, because you don't want to know the truth. Ignorance is bliss. Christian bliss.

 

[(Q)]

For example, if a meteor hit the Earth, I might recount the event, talking about how God sent the meteor to save humanity...whereas another person of a different religion would say that it was to punish the unbelievers.

Or, a meteor hit the Earth and it killed people.

To recount the event and argue a "my god is better than your god" justification is as preposterous as it is callous.

 

[jayleew]

What you or I perceive as a moral act has nothing to do with whether it is in fact a moral, merciful act.

Then, if we are all unable to perceive a moral act, and acknowledge it, morality means nothing. And that is the flaw in your statement. Morality is yielded from sociology, therefore we as humans define our moralities based on our relationships with one another.

Why is marijuanna illegal and alcohol legal in America?

Which act is a moral act? Moraility is subjective, that is all I was saying. It has nothing to do with what is socially accepted. I believe smoking marijuanna is a moral act, and I equate the act to drinking alcohol. Does that mean it is a moral act? No. What I think...what society has to think, has nothing to do with whether it is a moral act. Morality is not perceivable. We can only socially agree to a set of morality and compromise our own. There is no flaw in that statement.

I know some children who would be better off if their parents did die.

That has nothing to do with the children whose parents DID die, and WERE better off WITH them. That is a strawman.

I think I see your point, but doesn't that really assume that all the parents that died were "good," socially acceptable parents? Here's all I have about God: Abraham had begged and pleaded for God to stay his hand against Sodom and Gamorrah. Abraham said, "Lord, if you find just one righteous, would you save them all?" God replied, "Yes." God did not find any righteous, but God took Lot out of the city on behalf of Abraham. God destroyed the city. So, was this the same situation? Did God already remove the righteous?

I don't know. There are so many things God does with tragedies to build himself up and draw people close to him, who were otherwise unreachable. I mean if your family was all killed tragically, would you be more apt to listen to God in your misery? Would that give a chance for someone to be a hero and save a life? There is so much good that comes from tragedy, that it is bitter sweet when you look at the bigger picture than the loss.

Unless you are completely off your rocker, and I doubt you are, you'll whole-heartedly agree that an event which leaves children orphaned is not a moral act, regardless of the circumstances. On the other hand, you MUST justify the act as moral if you are to uphold your belief system.

The New Testament measured true Christianity character by a person's care for the Orphan and the Widow. Compassion towards the poverty of others will be rewarded. Compassionate actions are seen in the form of the treatment of the Poor, the Orphan and the bereaved Widow. They are not to be neglected or treated unjustly; they are to have special rights and privileges, they are to be cared for and helped generously. God defends their rights and expects His people to do the same.

God seems to have a special place in his heart for orphans and widows, who knows what impact one could have on those that are at the bottom if they just reach out and take a chance.

hehe. You are ALL self-proclaimed Christians.

I am what you say. By my own measure, I am no Christian, but a hypocrite. Sorry to dissapoint you, don't believe or disbelieve in God because of what I say. It is your call to make.

Let's see a Muslim go against the grain and stop believing in God like I did.

It's already happened, so what?

How long did they live a happy life in their community?

The only reason I would claim my life by Allah is because I was brainwashed.

So, instead, its Jesus.

Q, I really do wish I was brainwashed. Perhaps sometimes I pretend to. Perhaps sometimes, my mind will defeat itself and cause me to be. Life would be cake if things were so simple.

Sure, I was brainwashed as a child as a Christian, but I rebelled. Now I believe because I choose to.

I'm sitting here wondering if you actually read what you wrote?

It's like a weird version of Stockholm Syndrome.[/QUOTE]

Hehe. Sorta looks like that. Great, so now i'm a helpless victim?! Only thing that doesn't fit, is I am being kidnapped everytime I get away and the cycle starts over. Well, if God exists and created the universe, I guess who am I to say that I should be anything else than a pawn. What do I gain by fighting? What is better than what I have now?

 

[jayleew]

jayleew: You don't bother reading anything that a theist provides.
*************
M*W: You're wrong. Before you can refute something, you must know what is not true.
*************

Well, you've stopped reading anything. I have provided things, and I have provided yet other things. The last was a figure of speech "the stones cry out", which you would have known, had you read the article.

jayleew: You are so wrapped up in your own truth that you can't even recognize a figure of speech.
*************
M*W: You're wrapped up in "your own truth," too. Why should I not be allowed to be wrapped up in mine? That's the problem with you christians. You want us to believe what you believe, but most of us have already been there, done that, and refuted it.
*************

You shouldn't be wrapped in yours, I am not in mine. Just because I still believe in God doesn't mean I do not concede point and point again to logic, reasons, and evidence given by those on this forum.

jayleew: Your kind are deadly, it is a good thing you do not believe in God.
*************
M*W: These are not the words of a good human being who happens to believe in a religion. It shows who you really are inside. You are weak, a failure, and easily intimidated by those who are more intelligent than you. (That would include everyone else on this forum). You believe in false theology and false hope. You believe in gold Egyptian chariot wheels at the bottom of the Red Sea. You believe Noah's Ark was found (and you have proof). You believe that there was a burning bush on Mount Horeb. But you don't even know where the fuck the route of the Exodus was, because it simply didn't happen. It's all bunk. The Exodus was more likely a transit of planets in the zodiac. But, you're right about one thing. Yes, I am deadly. I am deadly to people like you who are already lost and drowning in their own ignorance.
*************

Wonderful MW, wonderful. I am in awe at your threats. I'm glad you hate me. That means I am nothing like you. :bugeye:

jayleew: You would be a zealot who spouts the word of God, doesn't live it, and shuts down all reason in the face of opposition. Anything with the word "religion" associated with it, you do not hear.
*************
M*W: Quite the contrary. It is you who are the zealot of a false religion and a false god. It is you who does not hear. Go back and read your bible, and get back to me with the total number of references you find for the planets, stars, suns, moons, signs, houses, constellations, elements, transits, movements, and so on. You can't do it, because you don't want to know the truth. Ignorance is bliss. Christian bliss.

Goodness. You probably regularly follow the tabloids.

Look hard and enough and you can create a code, rhytm, or pattern out of any large epic. Someday MW, you will are going to be destroyed. Maybe not by my God, but by yourself and your own pride. If you think you have all the answers, I pity your future.

 

[jayleew]

For example, if a meteor hit the Earth, I might recount the event, talking about how God sent the meteor to save humanity...whereas another person of a different religion would say that it was to punish the unbelievers.

Or, a meteor hit the Earth and it killed people.

To recount the event and argue a "my god is better than your god" justification is as preposterous as it is callous.

Q, you missed the point. I am just saying that different perspectives can exist based on one truth. That is all.

 

[(Q)]

Why is marijuanna illegal and alcohol legal in America?

Because there are more drinkers than smokers in Congress?

I think I see your point, but doesn't that really assume that all the parents that died were "good," socially acceptable parents?

Actually, you missed the point entirely.

So, was this the same situation? Did God already remove the righteous?

The fairy tale you speak of only shows the character of god to be cruel and unjust. And from my perspective, extremely immoral. It's easy to see how Christians are taught to be immoral.

I mean if your family was all killed tragically, would you be more apt to listen to God in your misery?

If that happened and there was a god, I would curse and spit on him for allowing it to happen.

Would that give a chance for someone to be a hero and save a life?

It is ridiculous in the extreme. Why would god create a catastrophe that killed people merely to crown a hero for saving a life, which didn't need saving if god had not created the disaster in the first place. That is a waste.

There is so much good that comes from tragedy, that it is bitter sweet when you look at the bigger picture than the loss.

There is NO good that comes from tragedy since that IS the big picture. Give your head a shake.

Compassionate actions are seen in the form of the treatment of the Poor, the Orphan and the bereaved Widow.

All requiring no help or direct input from gods. In fact, according to you, those orphans and widows were a result of your gods moral and just acts. The compassion you speak of must be of human nature.

God defends their rights and expects His people to do the same.

God murders them in cataclysmic events he orchestrates.

God seems to have a special place in his heart for orphans and widows

And a special place in the direct path of a tsunami or hurricane.

Sorry to dissapoint you, don't believe or disbelieve in God because of what I say. It is your call to make.

It's difficult to believe so much contradiction.

Q, I really do wish I was brainwashed. Perhaps sometimes I pretend to. Perhaps sometimes, my mind will defeat itself and cause me to be. Life would be cake if things were so simple.

Life is not a cake, and no amount of brainwashing is going to change that. Your mind will not defeat you unless you let it.

What do I gain by fighting? What is better than what I have now?

Reality. Embrace it. You gain everything.

 

[SnakeLord]

Why do you assume that I have voices in my head?

Because it is the most common form of people saying they have experienced or have evidence of a god. Visions, dreams and voices - none of which points to anything external. If you have something other than that then feel free to tell me.

Why does God have to speak at all to prove his existence?

1) Which god are we talking about?

2) We are humans. A god might not be, but we detect what exists through observation. We use the tools we have and our senses to gain knowledge of that which exists. Sure, we do not know everything - or anywhere near everything, but if we have absolutely nothing to work on other than some old words, (much like the leprechaun), then what exactly is the point in making vast assumptions concerning it, and more tragically, worshipping it? Right now we have nothing - nada - zip. The only people that seemed to know anything were those that thought the world was flat. It is not a surprise that the least knowledgeable people would have the most information regarding sky beings.

A myth does not imply that a belief is not based on a true event...it is the opposite.

Myth and superstition is natural to man - even more so when those men are utterly ignorant to how things actually are. If you spend some time looking for it, you will find superstition and myth everywhere you go. I play this online mmorpg and much like any community, it is full of myth and superstition. People simply cannot help it. There are chinese whispers that distort a story to such degree whereby it is literally unrecognisable to the actual events, baseless superstitions that form themselves from pure ignorance and so on. A man jumping in a puddle turns into a man that can walk on water and so on.

Or are all Gods the same God, from different cultural, warped perspectives (myths)?

Ok, so let's go with this idea. That now means that there are millions of gods. The oldest god beliefs in the world portray many gods, (indeed monotheism is relatively young), and even female gods, (tiamat etc). The only viable conclusion surely is that there are many many gods and godesses. If every culture featured one being then it would be possible to claim that they are all the same god, but that is simply not the case. Even in the bible we see multiple gods, (not only is that the whole concept of the trinity, {although they would adamantly disagree}, in the very first page of the bible and several times from there we see god speaking in a group setting - "let us go down..." etc)

You will find many creation stories, many flood stories and so on. If these are actual events then it stands to reason that the earliest of them would be the most accurate, (because they were closer to the actual events). Writing about an event 2000 years down the line is pretty pointless. Right now we would scrap Adam and Eve for the Sumerian stories of Adamu, and would scrap Noah for Utnapishtim. Anyone with even the remotest understanding would realise the inescapable effects of chinese whispers. It is an unavoidable fact of life - even more so over thousands of years. For accuracy we must look towards the originals.

For instance if we both saw the same event, both you and I would get two different things out of it.

Ok, what if you saw it and wrote about it, and I then wrote about it 2000 years later? Would you consider my work as an accurate depiction of the events? Given that these events would have been handed down for millennia from parent to child, parent to child, would you trust me to give an accurate representation of what really happened? Would you trust me to get your name right and other finer details? Other than being able to say there was a flood, would you actually trust a word I said? Add to that the simple fact that when people finally read it 2000 years from now they have no way whatsoever to judge my character. They cannot know if I am on drugs, if I am mentally ill, if I am suffering from any one of a billion issues that might go further to hinder the validity of my work. Would you trust my writing implicitly? What if there was absolutely no corroborating text or evidence? On the other hand what if there were 3 or 4 other texts speaking of the event but all in disagreement to the actual details? As a skeptic, which would you instantly trust? Would you consider any as an accurate representation?

As an example I offer this:

This will show you just how a story can differ, (and lest we forget, all of these people were there witnessing the actual events take place). Ok so you can see a meteorite from Japan and I will give a differing account from England, but we're not talking geographic differences here. By accounts these people were all right there watching a man being crucified. Over such a short period of time and the difference in story is simply astounding. That's without mentioning other details - disagreement in time, last words, etc etc etc.

If you were a skeptic, it would be the very last thing you would 'trust'. These people were supposedly entrusted to tell the story of how god killed himself for the people who acted the way they weren't supposed to even though they had been created that way. If they can't even agree on the very basics, what's left?

For example, if a meteor hit the Earth, I might recount the event, talking about how God sent the meteor to save humanity...whereas another person of a different religion would say that it was to punish the unbelievers.

So you're saying it's all guesswork?

So, is it safe to believe in any God? I would say no

There you go. However, 'safe' is not the issue.. honesty is. Is it honest to believe in any god? Again, no. Ok, people want to - yes, just like I want to win the lottery, (and indeed plan out how I'm going to spend it every week), but there is a vast difference between 'want' and 'honesty'.

As far as gambling...if Christinity didn't exist, I would not believe in God.

Clearly you would.. Instead you'd be saying; "If judaism, {eg}, didn't exist I would not believe in god". You've settled on something you need.. whatever god fulfills that need is irrelevant.

They teach irrational beliefs like reincarnation

That is somehow more irrational than the belief that your god impregnated an earth woman to give birth to one third of himself to then kill himself so he could come to life again and say; "you're forgiven for being human all because I killed myself temporarily"? From there is it any more irrational than the belief that this god will then destroy everything for some reason only to recreate it and make a new earth with a new jerusalem, (of all places), made out of gold and rubies and emeralds and all kinds of nice glittering gems, home to all the good folk, while the sexually immoral, fortune tellers and dogs get to live outside?

Some are tyrannical, like Islam.

Tyranny comes in many different forms. What about my child's rights that are being stripped away by the time she reached the age of 3 by an education system that demands it rams your ideals and beliefs down her throat? Or an American that has to see your ideals and beliefs everytime he spends any money, or goes to court, etc etc?

I didn't ask for muslims to blow people up or chop their heads off much like I didn't ask for christians to force their shit upon the minds of the young and innocent. Jews, (although most don't like them), seem to at least keep themselves to themselves. Let me run a quick poll:

Think about everytime anyone has ever knocked on your door trying to sell you religion. What is the jew to christian denomination ratio? They, (here at least), get on with their own shit without forcing it upon me and mine. That is a lot more than I can say for christianity, which has been forcing it's opinion on people for the past couple of millennia.

Some are just scams, like scientology.

It's all a service. They give you what you need, you pay them for it. We are all lacking somewhere in life. Whether we solve it through prostitutes, alcohol, drugs or religion - we're paying for nothing more than personal therapy.

I just don't want a part of anything that doesn't give me the freedom to choose

'Choice' is a bit of an odd statement. I knew a guy once that worked in a slave camp. His master said: "You have a choice: You can either do all my work for me and kiss my feet, or you can get shot in the head. There's good ol' fashioned free will for you". Needless to say, the word 'choice' is all about perspective. The master gave a 'choice', the slaves didn't have a 'choice'.

And if I have chosen wrong, then throw me in a lake of fire because some religions like Islam do not fit within my set of morality. I accept the consequences of choosing the wrong God because I reject all other beliefs because of the unreasonable things they teach.

When you understand why you reject all the other possible gods, (beliefs), then you will understand why I reject yours, (S. Roberts)

Who is to say what a god would want

Apparently, every religious person on the planet.

but I doubt that they would take to human rituals with any measure.

See my point? Can you say why without thinking from a human perspective?

If there is a god, it would should only desire two things

See my point? Can you say why without thinking from a human perspective?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Well, you've stopped reading anything. I have provided things, and I have provided yet other things. The last was a figure of speech "the stones cry out", which you would have known, had you read the article.

M*W: I've read what you've provided. I had a good laugh! I'm well aware of your 'figure of speech.' I just don't believe anything you say. Maybe it's you. Did you ever think about that? The voices in your head just don't come out intelligently on paper.

You shouldn't be wrapped in yours, I am not in mine. Just because I still believe in God doesn't mean I do not concede point and point again to logic, reasons, and evidence given by those on this forum.

M*W: Why shouldn't I be wrapped in mine? You keep arguing the same argument, yet you have proven nothing. Absolutely nothing. What you believe in is christian fiction. It's not archeology and it's not scholarly. It's fiction.

Wonderful MW, wonderful. I am in awe at your threats. I'm glad you hate me. That means I am nothing like you. :bugeye:

M*W: It's those voices in your head, again. I have not threatened you, and I don't actually hate you. I pity your ignorance. And, no, you are definitely not like me, and you never will be as long as you believe in christian fiction. What you have proven to this forum is that you are paranoid and possibly schizophrenic. All christians are mentally deranged. That's what has been proven time and time again.

Goodness. You probably regularly follow the tabloids.

M*W: No, actually, I don't waste my money on worthless pulp like that. Did you have a point to your accusation?

Look hard and enough and you can create a code, rhytm, or pattern out of any large epic. Someday MW, you will are going to be destroyed. Maybe not by my God, but by yourself and your own pride. If you think you have all the answers, I pity your future.

M*W: Look hard enough and you can create a god, a crucifixion, a resurrection, and a salvation from the voices in your head. I've had plenty of time on this planet to destroy myself, but I'm still here. Surely, if you had a god out there, he would have done me in by now. I don't claim to know everything, but I have already lived out most of my life, in full I might add, and I've had plenty of time to look for the truth. Don't pity my future. You're the one living in ignorance.

 

[Adstar]

M*W: Look hard enough and you can create a god, a crucifixion, a resurrection, and a salvation from the voices in your head. I've had plenty of time on this planet to destroy myself, but I'm still here. Surely, if you had a god out there, he would have done me in by now.

He would only end your life if He had no mercy on you. Keeping someone alive into old age gives them more time to come to their senses and repent.

Where there is life there is hope, you still have hope until the moment of your death MW.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Medicine*Woman]

He would only end your life if He had no mercy on you. Keeping someone alive into old age gives them more time to come to their senses and repent.

Where there is life there is hope, you still have hope until the moment of your death MW.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

*************
M*W: Oh, so YOUR god has mercy on me, but jayleew's doesn't? Hmmmm... There was a time when I was very young and impressionable when I believed in God and Jesus. Everyday I prayed my guts out begging for forgiveness for the somewhat less than innocent thoughts I had about people. I prayed for other people and their plights. I always prayed for my children and parents. I never missed going to church. NEVER. I held theological discussions with both protestant ministers and catholic priests, and I've visited the homes of both, and they visited mine. To make a long story short, neither could answer some of my questions, and they basically told me to quit asking. They both told me that some things that couldn't be explained had to be accepted as "mysteries." That answer wasn't good enough for me. If the men of the cloth didn't have the answers, why should I listen to them anymore?

People who look for the truth will never find it from those who refuse to look for the truth. It's the blind leading the blind.

There was the time when I was not in control of my 'senses.' I followed the blind, blindly. What a waste, and the blind are still leading the blind, but I'm not following them anymore. There are no "mysteries" to believe in on faith alone. If it cannot be explained, it didn't happen. It's that simple.

Adstar, like I told jayleew, reread your bible and take note of all the times it refers to stars, planets, sun, moon, signs, constellations, movements, transits and such. It's all myth that's been repeated over and over and over during recorded history. Astrology is myth, just like christianity is myth. How can you live your life believing in a myth?

 

[c7ityi_]

Astrology is myth, just like christianity is myth. How can you live your life believing in a myth?

Because it's a true myth. But we're not talking about the same God or the same Christianity or the same astrology. We're talking about our own personal perception of those things.

 

[stretched]

Quote jayleew:
“Christian morality is defined as anything which is commanded by God. Truly commanded by God.”

* Like burning alleged “witches” and heretics. Standard retort: “ Man`s evil, not “truly commanded” by God. Where do you draw the line?

* Regarding historicity, as an example, there is a problem with the town of Nazereth. There is no evidence for the town of Nazereth during the alleged time of Jesus.

Quote jayleew:
“Anyone born in Iraq is either Islamic or they are going to be shunned by everyone around them, at the least. You don't have a choice. To them, you are either a Muslim or you are an infidel.”

* I think what Q is trying to get at, is simply that if you were born in Iraq, your social, cultural and parental influences would be pervasively Islamic. You would not have the opportunity to know about Christianity, nor compare religions. You would be Islamic in religion and worldview by default. You would be a more, or less, devout Muslim.

For example: “I don't want any part of any other religion, not because it conflicts with mine, but because of what they teach. They teach irrational beliefs like reincarnation. Some are tyrannical, like Islam.”

* You would only know Islam, and your above statement could/would be said against Christianity, and something as irrational as the trinity.

Quote jayleew:
“There is so much good that comes from tragedy, that it is bitter sweet when you look at the bigger picture than the loss.”

* That is the big Christian fantasy. But 100% proof BS. Try telling that to someone who lost their entire family on Big Wednesday. Try saying: “Its all for the better my dear.” Eesh.

(for what its worth, I love your passion jayleew )

 

[jayleew]

Why is marijuanna illegal and alcohol legal in America?

Because there are more drinkers than smokers in Congress?

Funny!

The point is that just because a substance like alcohol is legal doesn't make it morally acceptable to get drunk. Sure, most people don't care as long as they don't drive or do it in public, but that is a moral set by society. At one time, it was also socially acceptable to keep slaves, but we all agree that it is an immoral act now. But is it? Morality is subjective. We cannot assume that killing thousands was not a moral act because we do not know all the circumstances.

So, was this the same situation? Did God already remove the righteous?

The fairy tale you speak of only shows the character of god to be cruel and unjust. And from my perspective, extremely immoral. It's easy to see how Christians are taught to be immoral.

So, you don't understand God's morality. It doesn't fit yours and many others perspectives. Well, no one does...and most people like me tend to be short-sighted with morality, understanding only what the senses tell us. But, I can tell you from experience that often times I see the morality after I learn all the circumstances.

I mean if your family was all killed tragically, would you be more apt to listen to God in your misery?

If that happened and there was a god, I would curse and spit on him for allowing it to happen.

See what I mean? Spitting on his face still is acknowledging God, and you may be more apt to believe during times of adversity.

Would that give a chance for someone to be a hero and save a life?

It is ridiculous in the extreme. Why would god create a catastrophe that killed people merely to crown a hero for saving a life, which didn't need saving if god had not created the disaster in the first place. That is a waste.

God doesn't make heroes for the heroes' sake, but so that others will see the glory of God work through another life and praise God. That is why humility is an important character trait for Christians to try to have.

There is so much good that comes from tragedy, that it is bitter sweet when you look at the bigger picture than the loss.

There is NO good that comes from tragedy since that IS the big picture. Give your head a shake.

Do you remember 9/11 in America? There was much good that came from the piles of rubble. Do you remember Tokyo? There is more good that comes from tragedy than the tragedy's pain. Adversity is a bitter-sweet pill.

For every tragedy, we can recount the miracles, heroism, and acts of compassion that would bring enemies together. It removes barriers. But, if people fail to take action, a tragedy turns into a sin on behalf of those that had the power to help.

Compassionate actions are seen in the form of the treatment of the Poor, the Orphan and the bereaved Widow.

All requiring no help or direct input from gods. In fact, according to you, those orphans and widows were a result of your gods moral and just acts. The compassion you speak of must be of human nature.

Well, we were made in God's image. Though we want nothing to do with God, we were made in his image. It remains to be seen when God removes his people from the world and shuts the doors of heaven, whether things like compassion are not from God. Even the unbelievers have access to the throne of God if they would humble themselves. So, nothing of God is withheld at this point. But, there will come a time when prayers will not be heard.

It will happen soon. The reestablishment of Isreal spoken from scripture ocurred in 1948. Anywhere from today to 2050, assuming someone born in 1948 might live at least 102 years, the end will come. If I live that long, we'll talk about compassion again.

What do I gain by fighting? What is better than what I have now?

Reality. Embrace it. You gain everything.

If I embraced reality, I'd have to take drugs, join self-help groups and all sorts of therapy to channel all this stuff of life. In short, I'd have to become just like everyone else...and I wouldn't have no reason to supress my selfish desires other than logic. The problem with logic, is it fails when emotion is present. People do stupid things riding on their emotions.

We all need God, or else we have to fill the hole with other things....some of those things are more potent, with harmful side effects, than others. If I didn't have my safety net, I would have to cope with life like most people. Why should we decide to just cope. Sure, it could be considered cowardice not to want to cope, but it takes more courage to believe in God and give up your desires, than to just fulfill those desires. And why wouldn't I choose a safety net if it has never broken on me before?

Life can be like falling from a building. A non-believer chooses to reach with all their might to grab a pole and keep themselves from falling. Some are more agile than others and do not fall far. A believer sees the net below and twists and turns as their told in order to land on their back squarely in the net to not injure themselves.

If the net has never broken, why should a believer start grabbing for a pole?

More often than not, even I grab for a pole. Sometimes I latch on. Other times, I slip and fall harder because I didn't straighten my body to land squarely in the net. So long as the net doesn't break when I fall, I will always trust that it will not break.

 

[jayleew]

Quote jayleew:
“Christian morality is defined as anything which is commanded by God. Truly commanded by God.”

* Like burning alleged “witches” and heretics. Standard retort: “ Man`s evil, not “truly commanded” by God. Where do you draw the line?

The line is not always knowable at all, and never completely. When it isn't at all, we must not be hasty Christians and go burning alleged "witches" and heretics. We must use reason and logic as much as we do the holy spirit, because God is not knowable.

* Regarding historicity, as an example, there is a problem with the town of Nazereth. There is no evidence for the town of Nazereth during the alleged time of Jesus.

Interesting. Have to give that some thought of the implications.

Quote jayleew:
“There is so much good that comes from tragedy, that it is bitter sweet when you look at the bigger picture than the loss.”

* That is the big Christian fantasy. But 100% proof BS. Try telling that to someone who lost their entire family on Big Wednesday. Try saying: “Its all for the better my dear.” Eesh.

Hah! That would be insensitive and disrespectful thing to say. If it were me, I be beyond all words. It would be a test of my faith for sure. But, I wouldn't be the first. Everything happened to Job, and Job was ticked at times being the battleground.

To say that so much good does not come from tragedy dishonors those that fought against the adversity. If I were a firefighter on ground zero and you said that good does not come from tragedy it might be an equal "evil" as if I told the family that much good comes from tragedy.