God's commandment?

[jayleew]

Since I have been shown first that God exists, I believe that the alleged myths in the Bible are precisely true, but maybe not so accurate because of many human fallacies.

How have you been shown god exists? What evidence do you have?

My life's journal. I tried God an infinite number of times. The years that I didn't believe, with hindsight I see he was there. I remember the years I faked it, and he was there. It's funny I remember after I came through a situation (whether I chose God's way or my way), I would say, "Nah, it was just coincidence. That is not proof of God's existence." With an infinite number of those that relate and build upon one another, I can only make the conclusion that God does exist. That combined with Pascal's Wager, the best choice is to believe...after that the holy spirit delivers the peace, which drives my emotions of love and joy. The only way I can prove God's existence is to open my life. Since I did not keep a record as some do, I have no evidence for you to appease your senses. Besides, my journal still would not be reasonable proof against the mountain of evidence that science has. Hate to leave you hanging, but your belief is between you and God. Communication is a two-way street, and I know that God was "communicating" even in my disbelief. No one can show you proof of God, but God...unless you are gullible. If you are gullible, just go to church and you will have your proof.

 

[(Q)]

jayleew

I don't see anything in your post indicating a god could possibly exist other than your own need to believe in a god or what you've conceived from your imagination.

Pascals wager? No, the best choice is not to believe in things that have never been shown to exist. If so, you should also believe in dragons, fairies, unicorns, etc.

 

[jayleew]

jayleew

I don't see anything in your post indicating a god could possibly exist other than your own need to believe in a god or what you've conceived from your imagination.

Pascals wager? No, the best choice is not to believe in things that have never been shown to exist. If so, you should also believe in dragons, fairies, unicorns, etc.

But, the dragons an fairies aren't in control of my destiny. If there was a god and it was the god of Moses and the Bible was the written human interpretations of the desires of God for us, the Bible claims that our eternal destiny awaits be it heaven or hell, depending on our belief in the sacrifice for our sins. In other words, Pascal's wager, concerning God, has teeth.

Believing in dragons and fairies has no consequences, so there is no Pascal's wager.

Still, that is only part of the reason I believe. The other part is my experiences. You and I know I don't have proof of God. But, I believe because I have seen the workings of God. So many times I dismissed them, because I am a skeptic. From getting money from a non-religious organization that I didn't expect, just at the right time when I needed that exact amount, to the time when I wrote a letter to my boss for a job change, and the same day shown I need to change the letter because of the same things going on in everyone's mind that day. Sure, coincidences. Multiply that times infinity, and I would be insane to think that it is all coincidence. Many times I've prayed for intervention, other times not. But, God is always there, however rudely I am awakened by his presence. If there was no God, I would have literally have died a long time ago.

I've completely stopped worrying so much, because things have a way of working themselves out for me. Miracle upon miracle. I just do as I'm led, and it amazes me that God is still there, through it all. The Christian life is the life of peace and love, and I love it!

 

[(Q)]

From getting money from a non-religious organization that I didn't expect, just at the right time when I needed that exact amount, to the time when I wrote a letter to my boss for a job change, and the same day shown I need to change the letter because of the same things going on in everyone's mind that day. Sure, coincidences. Multiply that times infinity, and I would be insane to think that it is all coincidence.

No, jayleew, it is the other way round, you would be insane to think they were not coincidences and that those situations were controlled by a supernatural being. And I don't think you need to apply infinity here, right?

If there was no God, I would have literally have died a long time ago.

I seriously doubt that.

So, things happen that make you happy. What about all the horrible things that happen which would make one seriously question a gods existence? Many innocent children and people die every day from that which they have no control, is that also gods doing?

If you were born and lived in Iraq, would you be a Christian?

 

[jayleew]

No, jayleew, it is the other way round, you would be insane to think they were not coincidences and that those situations were controlled by a supernatural being. And I don't think you need to apply infinity here, right?

The infinity is important because if the coincidences were finite, then they would be just coincidences. Also, their relation is important. I have had a finite amount (too many to count) of God experiences and since I experience a new one at least every month, then I will have an infinite number of them before I die.

So, things happen that make you happy. What about all the horrible things that happen which would make one seriously question a gods existence? Many innocent children and people die every day from that which they have no control, is that also gods doing?

If you were born and lived in Iraq, would you be a Christian?

All things work together for the good. It is all a matter of perspective. Every bad situation that I've been through (some I got so frustrated with God that I begin to dispair) turns out okay. I manage to get through it, sometimes on my own strength, but in hindsight I gain God's perspective and realize that using my own strength was the hard way, that I could have done X, which happens to follow scriptural teaching, and not had to flouder.

As far as innocent goes, morality is subjective. First, we must define innocent, then judge if the children or people adhere to the definition. Then, we also must look at who is responsible: the guardians. Be them governmental leadership or parents, we must confirm if they are responsible for the deaths.

According to the Bible, sin is sin to God, and killing innocents is the same thing as telling a lie. So, God does not take you until you have reached your part in the story is complete. When children are dying perhaps it is your job to do something about it. God has a plan for all of us, but that doesn't mean we have to follow it. He just gives the opprotunities by not intervening. If God didn't want us to be actively working for him, he would intervene.

If God was to intervene in our lives and directly answer prayers and stop all injustice, that would impede free will. There are times when he does intervene, but not often at all.

Besides, if injustice did not exist, how could you define justice?

Injustice exists when someone is selfish. Unfortunately, free will is a double-edged sword, so people are allowed to be selfish. But, some folks can't see past that, and understand that God will use death so that others may live.

 

[Sarkus]

The infinity is important because if the coincidences were finite, then they would be just coincidences. Also, their relation is important. I have had a finite amount (too many to count) of God experiences and since I experience a new one at least every month, then I will have an infinite number of them before I die.

I think someone needs to grasp the idea of what "infinite" actually means.

It is all a matter of perspective.

Belief in God is just a matter of perspective...
You obviously have a need for God, and so from your perspective you see your God in everything, reinforcing your belief.

Every bad situation that I've been through .... turns out okay.

Welcome to reality.

I manage to get through it, sometimes on my own strength, but in hindsight I gain God's perspective and realize that using my own strength was the hard way, that I could have done X, which happens to follow scriptural teaching, and not had to flouder.

Again - you're just overlaying your need for God onto everything you do.
You now see God in everything that you cannot comprehend that you are actually doing these things yourself - and that your belief in God is nothing but a tool that you are using to help your psychological state, and that following the scriptures is nothing but following a "self-help" book full of mostly common-sense ideas.

As far as innocent goes, morality is objective.

Bollox. Morality is utterly subjective, defined by the masses.

I can't be arsed to read the rest of the dribble.
Needless to say that I think you are utterly blinkered by this God-figure that you have created and allowed to be created through the religion you follow. Undoubtedly your psyche needed a crutch to help it at stages through your life. If it works for you then great - but there are other ways to live than through brainwashed devotion to something as existent as everything else for which there is zip/zero evidence.

 

[jayleew]

I think someone needs to grasp the idea of what "infinite" actually means.

Stop creating smoke clouds and distracting the issue. I have used infinite appropriately. If I lived forever, I would continue having God experiences forever, or infinitely.

Belief in God is just a matter of perspective...
You obviously have a need for God, and so from your perspective you see your God in everything, reinforcing your belief.

Nope, I can live without God. Done it, do it, don't prefer it because humans are not perfect.

As far as experiencing life, it is a matter of perspective like you said. If God exists or not, believing is a matter of perspective.

Again - you're just overlaying your need for God onto everything you do.
You now see God in everything that you cannot comprehend that you are actually doing these things yourself - and that your belief in God is nothing but a tool that you are using to help your psychological state, and that following the scriptures is nothing but following a "self-help" book full of mostly common-sense ideas.

You trust your own perception too much.

Bollox. Morality is utterly subjective, defined by the masses.

Sorry, I meant subjective. I'll fix.

I can't be arsed to read the rest of the dribble.
Needless to say that I think you are utterly blinkered by this God-figure that you have created and allowed to be created through the religion you follow. Undoubtedly your psyche needed a crutch to help it at stages through your life. If it works for you then great - but there are other ways to live than through brainwashed devotion to something as existent as everything else for which there is zip/zero evidence.

Not asking you to do anything. Put me on ignore.

Yes, there are other ways to live. Oh, Sarkus I wished I was brainwashed. But I am skeptical of everything because of life has made me wise. I don't trust any "truth", and I am not surprised by human imperfection no matter how big the man. In short, I've been taught by man to distrust man. The only thing that has been true all along is God. One of at least a hundred reasons I distrust man is that I was taught that evolution was how all life came to be. That is a supported theory, but hardly fact, and after a long debate with at least two members on this forum they will agree that it is the only solution that has evidence and so must be true. Good logic and for scientific purposes safe to assume, but still not fact. I don't trust research or evidence until it has been beaten, chewed up, and processed. So many studies are refuted after finding a flaw in the experiment. Flaw after flaw. We're not perfect, and that is the problem. Yesterday we said that the world was flat. Today we say it's round. Science advances, but in order for it to advance most times requires it to destroy what was called fact days before. There are so many influences like power, politics, and money that can muddle research and make a lie into a truth. Have you ever looked into the linked effects of Nutrasweet, and how it achieved the America's FDA approval? Flaw after flaw, I don't trust anything. I am the opposite of brainwashed. The only thing science has proven to me is that it is fact only until the next experiment is performed, which begs the question if it was a fact to begin with. The only unchanging, faithful thing, is God. He has always been there for me and taken care of me and never lied to me. I'm sick of mankind! If you're not, you are the delusional one that turns a blind eye to the world's injustice.

But, at the same time, I understand where I came from and who I am...which was and is not unlike where many are at now. So, I appreciate all perspectives and knowledge, even MW in some sick and twisted way.

To each his own, I will share my experience of life and answer those who ask why I believe in fantasy. Take it or leave it. I'm sorry that Q and my discussion has led this way.

 

[(Q)]

I have had a finite amount (too many to count) of God experiences and since I experience a new one at least every month, then I will have an infinite number of them before I die.

Actually, you'd have a finite amount before you died. What the heck is a 'god experience?'

I manage to get through it, sometimes on my own strength...

Yes, it is you who does it, no one else.

As far as innocent goes, morality is subjective. First, we must define innocent, then judge if the children or people adhere to the definition.

They are, amongst others, god fearing Christians. In terms of your beliefs, they should be ultimately moral innocent people.

Be them governmental leadership or parents, we must confirm if they are responsible for the deaths.

How about starvation, pestulence and disease? Are these gods works, for it these that kill children every day.

When children are dying perhaps it is your job to do something about it.

Of course it is, but many feel it is gods job to do something, since he does all those wonderful things for you, why shouldn't he save the children?

God has a plan for all of us, but that doesn't mean we have to follow it. He just gives the opprotunities by not intervening.

That sounds rather contradictory considering all your infinite number of god experiences that have brought you much happiness and joy. I suppose your god is fickle that way.

If God was to intervene in our lives and directly answer prayers and stop all injustice, that would impede free will.

You yourself said he intervenes an infinite number of ways in your life - again, that somewhat contradicts what you said before???

Besides, if injustice did not exist, how could you define justice?

Is injustice part of gods way?

God will use death so that others may live.

That makes no sense, he is a god and can do whatever he wants whenever he wants, why should he substitute this person for that person? How did that help with the tsunami last year or the hurricanes this year??? How many were saved due to the hundreds of thousands who died?

And again, if you were born in Iraq, do you think you'd be a Christian?

 

[jayleew]

I have had a finite amount (too many to count) of God experiences and since I experience a new one at least every month, then I will have an infinite number of them before I die.

Actually, you'd have a finite amount before you died. What the heck is a 'god experience?'

"God experience" is a phrase i'm coining to refer to a coincidence that I believe God was involved in orchestrating.

I will have a finite number of them before I die, yes. But, I would have an infinite number if I lived forever. In other words, God continues to work in my life, and I cannot tell how many more times that God will work in my life. As long as I live, God is with me.

I manage to get through it, sometimes on my own strength...

Yes, it is you who does it, no one else.

Yes, it is me. But, there are paths of least resistance and God knows them all and wants me to take them.

When children are dying perhaps it is your job to do something about it.

Of course it is, but many feel it is gods job to do something, since he does all those wonderful things for you, why shouldn't he save the children?

Who says he isn't saving them today? An eternal God has no concept of time and everthing is done at the right time. The Isrealites were slaves to the Egyptians for years before God delivered them. God assured Moses that he had heard the cries of the Isrealites and knew their sorrow. You see, God has an appointed time for everyone to act. He calls, it's up to us to answer, or many will perish.

You yourself said he intervenes an infinite number of ways in your life - again, that somewhat contradicts what you said before???

You don't understand. God does not intervene in my life. He is always there directing my life. He is like a dungeon master in D&D. He arranges, and asks people if they will be the one to do as he asks. Other people, under the direction of God's command or not, believer and non-believer impact my life equally. But, God is still there watching over you and me. And, it just happens that God is a good dungeon master and when I am obedient, I prosper. And when I am not, I suffer, but God makes a way out.

Besides, if injustice did not exist, how could you define justice?

Is injustice part of gods way?

Yes, it is not the preferred way, but the result of free will. All things work together for everybody who loves God and are called according to his purpose. Injustice is caused by man, but God uses injustice for good. He is a step ahead of Satan.

God will use death so that others may live.

That makes no sense, he is a god and can do whatever he wants whenever he wants, why should he substitute this person for that person? How did that help with the tsunami last year or the hurricanes this year??? How many were saved due to the hundreds of thousands who died?

And again, if you were born in Iraq, do you think you'd be a Christian?

For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, so that those who believe in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Jesus died, so we all can escape punishment of death. It may not make sense that he would do that, but that is how God works.

The tsunami? We will never know who those people were. The Isrealites, God's own people didn't believe in him, and Moses was with them, they saw the parting of the sea, they saw a pillar of fire, and still they did not believe in God. God caused an earthquake and killed thousands of them. What a merciful act. God knew that they would continue to reject him and would cause further harm to themselves and those around them, generations down to generations. Because of that killing, they might have a chance at the mercy seat of judgement. Now, i'm not inferring that the tsunami was caused by God, but he allowed it to happen and people to die. So, all those people were the closest that they would ever be to God. God knew their hearts and took them out of this miserable world. Who knows how many are dancing in fields of grace? There have been too many coincidences where a tornado would rip through a neighborhood leaving only one family's house unscathed. Who knows why God does what he does, but I trust him more than myself.

If I were born in Iraq? I can only speculate what I would be, but somehow, I don't think I would be allowed the liberty to be skeptical. So, I would proabably be a Muslim. Who would be anything else under a leader like Sadaam? Or Islam for that matter. That is how Muhammad ruled. The main tenants of Isalm are: convert or die. He converted with an iron fist...which resulted later in oppresion around the Middle East and into Europe. The first Crusade was a just cause called upon by God, and the most successful of the Crusades. That was not coincidence. The Crusades became warped by man's desires. Anyone born in Iraq is either Islamic or they are going to be shunned by everyone around them, at the least. You don't have a choice. To them, you are either a Muslim or you are an infidel.

 

[(Q)]

"God experience" is a phrase i'm coining to refer to a coincidence that I believe God was involved in orchestrating.

Thanks, but I cannot figure how it is possible for you to discern if a god was involved or not? And, if god os orchestrating, that would make free will null and void.

 

[jayleew]

"God experience" is a phrase i'm coining to refer to a coincidence that I believe God was involved in orchestrating.

Thanks, but I cannot figure how it is possible for you to discern if a god was involved or not? And, if god os orchestrating, that would make free will null and void.

The dungeon master concept is a good analogy for now. In the game Dungeons and Dragons (D&D), the Dungeon Master (DM) leads characters through the game, defines specifics of the game, and basically is the game. The dungeon master gives the players choices and a good DM leaves the options open for any choice. The goal is to survive the adventure, or at least get stronger for the next adventure. The players are in control of the game, but the DM shares control at the same time. The DM can intervene if he/she feels the party is getting out of hand, or just to spice things up. We have free will, but the DM knows how the adventure ends, but not how we'll get there. Sure, the DM can look at your character and, based on your personality, make a guess on the path you will take, but the choice is up to you. The God experiences are like seeing the dice rolled by the DM. You see the DM's "influence" in the game because he/she follows the rules written in the Players handbook. The DM has little control on how the game unfolds, but yet all the control to anihiliate the party if he/she wished so. Do you play D&D?

 

[(Q)]

We will never know who those people were.

Yes, we do know who they were. As I said, god fearing Christians were killed by the thousands.

God caused an earthquake and killed thousands of them. What a merciful act.

Slaughtering thousands of innocent people is merciful simply because they didn't believe in your god? That is by far and away, the furthest thing from merciful. I can't believe you would say such a thing.

Now, i'm not inferring that the tsunami was caused by God, but he allowed it to happen and people to die. So, all those people were the closest that they would ever be to God. God knew their hearts and took them out of this miserable world.

A cruel and unjust god, most certainly. Those people probably didn't want to die. Their families didn't want them to die. What about the innocent children who no longer have parents?

A more likely explanation would be that disasters happen to anyone because there is no god to allow or disallow such things to happen. Doesn't that make more sense?

Who knows why God does what he does, but I trust him more than myself.

But that is just it, isn't it? Why does god do such things? He kills thousands and thousands of innocent people in a flash but saves a single family.

And you trust such a cruel being?

So, I would proabably be a Muslim.

No, you WOULD be a Muslim, and you believe Allah to be your one and only god. The Christian god would mean nothing to you but an infidels delusion.

The main tenants of Isalm are: convert or die.

Exactly like Christianiaty, of which you provided ample evidence above. And you approve of it.

You don't have a choice. To them, you are either a Muslim or you are an infidel.

The same goes for Christianity. Seems like Christians and Muslims have much in common.

However, it can be concluded that geographical location is very important in deciding ones religion. That should say something about your so-called god experiences. If you were born in Iraq and were a Muslim, you would, with every fiber of your being, claim your life was 'orchestrated' by Allah. Now, theres something to think about.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Your rebuttals are as hasty as ever because you miss the points and assume I mean something else. Yes, it has to do with my miscommunication, but that is why you need to digest arguments.
*************
M*W: jayleew, you are inevitablly in the wrong.
*************
jayleew: My intention was not to confuse or compare scientific theories with religious fantasy. My statement was an illustration of how a conclusion such as that all life resulted from the device of evolution, as a whole, cannot be refutted on a single controversy...and that the controversy in no way negates the fact of evolution.
*************
M*W: You believe in religious fantasy. What else needs to be stated?
*************
jayleew: In that way, if someone were to refute say the fossil record, the theory stands on genetics, astronomy, etc. It is the same way with the concepts and conclusions made in the Bible. They are consistent as a whole, even though tidbits of a part can be refutted and debated. For instance, the Bible says that the righteous shall find heaven. That idea is repeated in scripture in different ways, and if one was to refute aninstance, that does not negate the conclusion that the righteous shall find heaven. Do you understand what I mean by specifics not being as important? Maybe specifics is not the right word, but hopefully you get my meaning. Hasty judgement of arguments is a foolish venture because of the medium we use to communicate.
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M*W: jayleew, this proves that you believe in something foreign to the human consciousness.
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jayleew: The Bible's lineage of characters is historically accurate.
*************
M*W: No, it's not. The bible only repeats what ancient humans believed to be god.
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jayleew: We have other evidence which substatiate that those characters existed.
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M*W: No, we don't.
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jayleew: "on July 21, 1993, a team of archaeologists led by Prof. Avraham Biran, excavating Tel Dan in the northern Galilee, found a triangular piece of basalt rock, measuring 23 x 36 cm. inscribed in Aramaic. It was subsequently identified as part of a victory pillar erected by the king of Syria and later smashed by an Israelite ruler. The inscription, which dates to the ninth century bce, that is to say, about a century after David was thought to have ruled Israel, includes the words Beit David ("House" or "Dynasty" of David"). It is the first near-contemporaneous reference to David ever found. It is not conclusive; but it does strongly indicate that a king called David established a dynasty in Israel during the relevant period."

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2003/9/King David and Jerusalem- Myth and Reality

"The archaeological supports in the case of Jesus’ greatest follower, Paul of Tarsus, are especially impressive. Ruins in Cyprus, Galatia, Philippi, Thessalonica, Berea, Athens, Corinth, Ephesus, Rome and elsewhere all bear out the many references about Paul in the New Testament.

As hard evidence from the past, "the very stones cry out" the reliability of the Biblical record. It is amusing to note that many of the last century’s most trenchant critics of Jesus and the New Testament refused at first even to consider the result of archaeology, so counter to their opinions was its evidence! Today, I can’t imagine anyone, friend or foe of the faith, would be stupid enough to hold so foolish an attitude."

http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/archives/maier3.htm

*************
M*W: No stones cry out. The biblical record is beyond wrong. Jesus doesn't exist in history. He only exists in allegory. Why is it so hard for you people to believe reality? There was no Jesus. There was no salvation. There is no atonement according to christianity. Christianity is not a religion... It's a false entity. Why can't you people see it for what it is?

 

[c7ityi_]

M*W: No stones cry out. The biblical record is beyond wrong. Jesus doesn't exist in history. He only exists in allegory. Why is it so hard for you people to believe reality? There was no Jesus. There was no salvation. There is no atonement according to christianity. Christianity is not a religion... It's a false entity. Why can't you people see it for what it is?

He doesn't exist ONLY in allegory. You can't follow patterns if you want to know the truth. And just because something is allegorical doesn't mean it's not true. Adam and Eve didn't exist as two specific people, but they still existed, and that event was a real event. The New Testament is partly based on the life of Jesus. Christ exists even today, just as Quetzacoatl does. They're the same thing.

Don't you see that those who have faith in Christ subconsciously have faith in themselves? When they pray, they subconsciously pray to their higher self.

This is kind of off topic but why do you keep saying that the only God there ever was was the sun? For example, the Egyptians worshipped the sun, but the sun was only a manifestation of Ra, and Ra was also created. Ra created the sun. The sun is his body, not Ra itself.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

c7ityi_: He doesn't exist ONLY in allegory. You can't follow patterns if you want to know the truth. And just because something is allegorical doesn't mean it's not true. Adam and Eve didn't exist as two specific people, but they still existed, and that event was a real event. The New Testament is partly based on the life of Jesus. Christ exists even today, just as Quetzacoatl does. They're the same thing.
*************
M*W: c7ityi_, your perception of things allows for much delusion.
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c7ityi_: Don't you see that those who have faith in Christ subconsciously have faith in themselves? When they pray, they subconsciously pray to their higher self.
*************
M*W: I'm quite aware of what the higher self is, and I believe it is something we should all strive to become familiar with, but I see absolutely NO connection of our higher self to Jesus. If you're talking about "Christ Consciousness," that's a different kind of animal. I understand the meaning of it, but I don't find it's necessary to label it as such. Our higher consciousness is ours. It has nothing to do with any fictional character.
*************
c7ityi_: This is kind of off topic but why do you keep saying that the only God there ever was was the sun? For example, the Egyptians worshipped the sun, but the sun was only a manifestation of Ra, and Ra was also created. Ra created the sun. The sun is his body, not Ra itself.
*************
M*W: Because I believe all religions were spawned from the fear and awe of the sky bodies and elements. The sun being in the center of the solar system was the one early man feared most. Hence, it became the ultimate power over them and their lives that they worshipped the sun as god. All your monotheistic religions were based on sun worship. THAT'S WHY I KEEP SAYING IT!

 

[c7ityi_]

M*W: c7ityi_, your perception of things allows for much delusion.
*************
c7ityi_: I am learning to understand rather than immediately judge or to be judged.
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M*W: If you're talking about "Christ Consciousness," that's a different kind of animal.
*************
c7ityi_: I don't know what that is.
*************
M*W: Our higher consciousness is ours.
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c7ityi_: Of course it is, that's why Christ said: Our father...
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M*W: It has nothing to do with any fictional character.
*************
c7ityi_: That "fictional" character represents our higher self. Because people are so far away from their real self, they have always imagined that it's a separate entity from them, which they call God. They didn't know where this "God" was, they just saw that it punishes them, and sometimes it rewards them. They didn't know that those "punishments" were just a consequence of their ignorance. Since the heaven was unknown and unreachable for man, and life giving rain came from there, they thought that God is there. However, "God" is in our mind, it IS our mind.

So, you can see that sun worship was based on fear of our higher self.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

c7ityi_: I am learning to understand rather than immediately judge or to be judged.

M*W: Don't give me that. You judge everything everybody says on this forum.

M*W: If you're talking about "Christ Consciousness," that's a different kind of animal.

c7ityi_: I don't know what that is.

M*W: See, you don't understand what's being said nor the manner in which it's being said, so you can't keep up with the dialog. Admit it.

M*W: Our higher consciousness is ours.

c7ityi_: Of course it is, that's why Christ said: Our father...

M*W: It has nothing to do with any fictional character.

M*W: The "Our Father" reflects a belief in astrology. I still aver that Jesus was only a fictional character. The "Our Father" was written probably by an astrologer.

c7ityi_: That "fictional" character represents our higher self. Because people are so far away from their real self, they have always imagined that it's a separate entity from them, which they call God. They didn't know where this "God" was, they just saw that it punishes them, and sometimes it rewards them. They didn't know that those "punishments" were just a consequence of their ignorance. Since the heaven was unknown and unreachable for man, and life giving rain came from there, they thought that God is there. However, "God" is in our mind, it IS our mind.

M*W: Yes, the belief in God can only dwell within our minds just as the belief in fairies, ogres, beanstalks, and magic pumpkins.

c7ityi_: So, you can see that sun worship was based on fear of our higher self.

M*W: Sun worship was not based on fear of our higher self. It was based on the fear of the unconquerable or that which is unattainable and beyond our control.

 

[c7ityi_]

M*W: Don't give me that. You judge everything everybody says on this forum.

Thihi. I know. But I'm a different person almost every day.

M*W: See, you don't understand what's being said nor the manner in which it's being said, so you can't keep up with the dialog. Admit it.

I said it so that you would know that I wasn't talking about that.

M*W: The "Our Father" reflects a belief in astrology.

I believe the 12 faces of God is in everything we see.

I still aver that Jesus was only a fictional character.

It's understandable since there's so much allegory and references to astrology. I don't think Jesus existed in the exact way described in the Bible, but I think it's still partly based on his life. But the important is not the historical Jesus but what he represents. All religions teach that we should know ourselves.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Thihi. I know. But I'm a different person almost every day.

M*W: This, I believe.

I meant that I don't know what Christ consciousness is, so that you know that I wasn't talking about that.

M*W: Okay.

I believe the 12 faces of God is in everything we see.

M*W: The 12 faces of god... do you mean the zodiac?

It's understandable since there's so much allegory and references to astrology. I don't think Jesus existed in the exact way described in the Bible, but I think it's still partly based on his life. But the important is not the historical Jesus but what he represents. All religions teach that we should know ourselves.

M*W: I don't know about all religions, but judaism and christianity teach that we are lowly humans who needs a higher power to survive. If we truly knew ourselves, we wouldn't need religions to save us.

 

[jayleew]

We will never know who those people were.

Yes, we do know who they were. As I said, god fearing Christians were killed by the thousands.

God caused an earthquake and killed thousands of them. What a merciful act.

Slaughtering thousands of innocent people is merciful simply because they didn't believe in your god? That is by far and away, the furthest thing from merciful. I can't believe you would say such a thing.

What you or I perceive as a moral act has nothing to do with whether it is in fact a moral, merciful act.

Now, i'm not inferring that the tsunami was caused by God, but he allowed it to happen and people to die. So, all those people were the closest that they would ever be to God. God knew their hearts and took them out of this miserable world.

A cruel and unjust god, most certainly. Those people probably didn't want to die. Their families didn't want them to die. What about the innocent children who no longer have parents?

I know some children who would be better off if their parents did die. It is situations like that were the family needs help.

A more likely explanation would be that disasters happen to anyone because there is no god to allow or disallow such things to happen. Doesn't that make more sense?

Sure, it makes more sense if you have no evidence of God's existence.

Who knows why God does what he does, but I trust him more than myself.

But that is just it, isn't it? Why does god do such things? He kills thousands and thousands of innocent people in a flash but saves a single family.

And you trust such a cruel being?

Yes, because I am not innocent. I trust him because he made a promise to me that in spite of what I deserve, he will take me as I am.

The main tenants of Isalm are: convert or die.

Exactly like Christianiaty, of which you provided ample evidence above. And you approve of it.

You do not know Christianity, if you believe that. If that were so, the founding fathers of America would have not given a decree that the government shall not establish religion.

You don't have a choice. To them, you are either a Muslim or you are an infidel.

The same goes for Christianity. Seems like Christians and Muslims have much in common.

HEHE. The only Christians you are making an example of are the self-proclaiming ones. You may have read the entire Bible, but you do not understand Christianity or Jesus's commandments.

However, it can be concluded that geographical location is very important in deciding ones religion. That should say something about your so-called god experiences. If you were born in Iraq and were a Muslim, you would, with every fiber of your being, claim your life was 'orchestrated' by Allah. Now, theres something to think about.

Let's see a Muslim go against the grain and stop believing in God like I did. The only reason I would claim my life by Allah is because I was brainwashed.

Sure, I was brainwashed as a child as a Christian, but I rebelled. Now I believe because I choose to.